Brand name school matters

[katalytik]

You know, from what I have seen with research, it seems the department name matters a lot. By this I mean, getting into the top journals, having people work with you, etc. No matter how good a person is, it is a lot easier to that from a brand name department/school.

In my field anyway, even if you have a great idea for research, who you associate with will get it into top journals. There seems to be a "network" of respected professors, and once they put their name on an even "average" paper, it will go into the top top journals. I am in a field that is "hot" right now, and I have my own ideas. But I think that will not matter until these journals are introduced to me by well-known professors who have published in those journals.

This is why I am leaning towards trying to get into a "brand name" school so that i can get some publications in some top journals, even if the financial aid is not that great. I hope they provide, but having thought about it, it seems the brand name can affect my research career. It can put me on fast track.

But I want to know others' opinions. any thoughts?

[origin415]

My professors have assured me that the rankings don't matter much at all, your research and recommendations are going to be whats going to get you a nice post doc and such later, but I imagine reputation is more important in other fields. I can't say that I wouldn't prefer to go to a school with a nice name, though.

I have yet to publish, so I wouldn't know about journals.

Edited February 1, 2010 by origin415

[prolixity]

In regards to chemistry: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/education/8139/8139education1.html

If you want to be a professor at a top 10 university, it certainly doesn't hurt to have pedigree.

[fuzzylogician]

I think it's more about the people you work with than the school name (though obviously the two are connected). It's going to be easier for you to publish when you have the "seal of approval" from a major name in your field, and their recommendation will also help you get hired at good places later.

Brand names are there to make your parents proud.

[strokeofmidnight]

You know, from what I have seen with research, it seems the department name matters a lot. By this I mean, getting into the top journals, having people work with you, etc. No matter how good a person is, it is a lot easier to that from a brand name department/school.

In my field anyway, even if you have a great idea for research, who you associate with will get it into top journals. There seems to be a "network" of respected professors, and once they put their name on an even "average" paper, it will go into the top top journals. I am in a field that is "hot" right now, and I have my own ideas. But I think that will not matter until these journals are introduced to me by well-known professors who have published in those journals.

This is why I am leaning towards trying to get into a "brand name" school so that i can get some publications in some top journals, even if the financial aid is not that great. I hope they provide, but having thought about it, it seems the brand name can affect my research career. It can put me on fast track.

But I want to know others' opinions. any thoughts?

Katalytik,

I'm in a completely different field, so my experience might not be at all useful. I think that as a general rule, there is some truth to what you're suggesting. Certainly, there's something of a snowball effect: a introduction from a established professor can help to open doors (but only if your work is already "at that level") and distinguish your paper from others that are perhaps equally as interesting/good (however one defines this). And of course, once you're published, it's easier to network, publish, find a job, etc. Having access to famous/influential can help you get your foot in the door, but I don't think that it is ever the determining factor. Those introductions are helpful, but not necessary. A strong piece can stand on its own. (That said, it's often easier to write a good piece if one is being guided by a professors who knows the field well).

I do think, however, that a "brand name" is a bit simplistic. In my field, some of the most interesting work in the various subfields is NOT being done at the "brand name" universities (the ones that are most likely to grace bumper stickers). Some of the most recognizable academic names--the ones with the most clout--work at little-known (or only locally-recognized) state schools. I'm sure that most future grad students know this already: pick the best programs for your field (and specialty), rather than the biggest "brand" names. Sure, announcing yourself as a Harvard PhD might impress your relatives at Thanksgiving dinner (until they inevitably ask: "So what is it that you do anyway?"), but the top scholars for your field might not actually be at Harvard.

Also, for the many (majority of?) applicants who aren't at the top school for their field or don't have automatic access to the most renowned professors,* there are other alternatives that might help them gain the same advantage. It's not uncommon in my field (though this varies from school to school) to either study at other universities through exchange programs, or ask professors from other schools to sit on one's committee. Networking plays a role, but it's also not indiscriminate. I suspect that a famous professor would never champion the work of what he or she would consider a "weaker" or "average" student or--to be blunt--take up the student in the first place. So while an introduction or a shortcut into these established networks can help, your work must already be (what is that awful phrase?) "pre-qualified" before you can get your foot in the door. Exactly what "pre-qualified" entails is beyond me. I suspect that in addition to intellectual quality (however it's defined), there are also ideological lines to be toed....but I'm far too new to this process to explain (or even understand) the politics at work.

*It's also worth noting: many of the most famous professors do not work with graduate school. They're SO famous that they don't have to bother with daily nuisances like...teaching or advising.

Edited February 1, 2010 by strokeofmidnight

[strokeofmidnight]

I think it's more about the people you work with than the school name (though obviously the two are connected). It's going to be easier for you to publish when you have the "seal of approval" from a major name in your field, and their recommendation will also help you get hired at good places later.

Brand names are there to make your parents proud.

How is it that you manage to say in two sentences what I can't quite convey in 5 paragraphs?

[piccgeek]

I'm with fuzzylogician. In English schmancy schools definitely have power, but I think having a rockstar adviser in your particular field/genre/etc. is (at least slightly) more important than the school/department pedigree overall. Publishing in top-rate journals is also really important. I think it all comes back to fit (oh, that magical, mystical word)--if you know what, exactly, you want to study and seek out the top scholars, rather than the top overall schools, that is the best scenario. Academia's a small world--everyone knows everyone, and everyone knows who the rockstars are!

[katalytik]

Lemme give you guys an example. The New England Journal of Medicine is arguably the most well-known medical journal in the world, and it has acceptance rates of papers into the low single digits in terms of percentages. However, the editorial board is made up of several Ivy school people! And I am sure that not every Ivy-sourced paper is published, but it seems these guys know each other. Also, I have read many papers in there that are not at all impressive in terms of moving the field forward, but were done by professors who are known. I am sure the known profs know how to write for these journals, but the fundamental points were not that impressive actually.

Had I written an opinion piece and submitted it, it probably would have been dumped. however, stick one of the known prof names on it.......it magically seems to float on clouds and get published into such journals. some of my previous faculty were very blunt and told me that get some names that are known and you can then establish a name for yourself.

[fuzzylogician]

You need to distinguish between the (sad) fact that big names sometimes get more leeway than us regular folk, and the question of what is the best place for you to establish your own reputation. Being endorsed by [big-name advisor] will help you publish more than being from [insert ivy name here], for obvious reasons. If big-name thinks your work is good, reviewers at top journals are likely to follow suit. Most fields are small enough that people know each other and form opinions based on that, for better or worse. Maybe in your field there is a 1:1 correspondence between brand names and advisors, but at least in my field that is certainly not the case. By far the more important factor in your decision where to attend should be the support you'll get from your advisor, not the sparkle that goes with the school's name*.

*to qualify this statement, yes, there is an obvious link between the two. But (again, at least in my field,) you'll get much further with a good dissertation from a less known school than with an average dissertation from an ivy.

So, the questions to ask are: Do students from ivies publish more? Do students from ivies get hired more often/at better places? Look at people's stats who are currently holding the positions you would like to have in 7-10 years: where did they study? Who was their advisor? Aim to have a similar career path as them.

Edited February 1, 2010 by fuzzylogician

[rising_star]

I agree with fuzzylogician. My department isn't a brand-name but we have graduate students and faculty publishing in the top journals in the discipline. Seriously, one of my grad school colleagues has single-authored articles coming out in the flagship US and UK journals this year. So, clearly people in my program are capable of getting published in top journals even if our university's name isn't super widely recognized (though our name recognition is growing in part due to people like my publishing-machine friend). Things may work differently in my field since co-authored papers aren't the norm.

[waiting2009]

Lemme give you guys an example. The New England Journal of Medicine is arguably the most well-known medical journal in the world, and it has acceptance rates of papers into the low single digits in terms of percentages. However, the editorial board is made up of several Ivy school people! And I am sure that not every Ivy-sourced paper is published, but it seems these guys know each other. Also, I have read many papers in there that are not at all impressive in terms of moving the field forward, but were done by professors who are known. I am sure the known profs know how to write for these journals, but the fundamental points were not that impressive actually.

Had I written an opinion piece and submitted it, it probably would have been dumped. however, stick one of the known prof names on it.......it magically seems to float on clouds and get published into such journals. some of my previous faculty were very blunt and told me that get some names that are known and you can then establish a name for yourself.

Of course it matters, holding everything else constant. But sometimes is the other way around; prestigious departments attract the best people (hard working, ambitious; I don't necessarily mean that they are the smartest) and so they tend to publish more papers. I've worked with well-known professors at top departments and their papers get rejected left and right, but they have many projects, funding, etc. As a student, it depends on you and how you make the most of out the opportunities. Yes, big names have more resources, networking, knowledge and so on, but it's you who will have to do a lot of work and produce quality research. They won't do it for you. All the famous profs I know are non-stop working machines. Sure, they are pretty smart, but they got where they are by working very hard.

In summary, it doesn't hurt to go to a super prestigious school but getting into one is not going to guarantee anything for you.

Edited February 4, 2010 by waiting2009

[Caligula]

"Being endorsed by [big-name advisor] will help you publish more than being from [insert ivy name here]"

One would do well to remember that these two things (big-name advisor and big-name ivy) are NOT mutually exclusive. It is quite possible - even probable for some - that the best advisor for your interests is at an Ivy or other brand-name school.

Of course, this is not always - and quite often - not the case; it all depends on your field and your sub-interests within that field.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Caligula

[Paul S.]

I agree with Waiting2009's sentiment.

Department Name, Advisers, School Reputation, etc are all secondary compared to the individual's motivation and ability. People from lesser regarded programs often make a big splash in the professional world. Even more would if they believed in themselves as opposed to admitting they'll never be at the top unless they have certain places and names on their resume.

The point is you can get so easily consumed with these supporting factors that you forgot what is really important- yourself. If you have something valuable and unique to bring to your profession then your voice will be heard and recognition will come.

Shadowing the path of a successful professional does not guarantee you anything. It only shows that you're more concerned (obsessed) about the glamor and reward of being at the top than you are with doing the work to get to the top. You need passion and hard work for what you want to achieve. Aspire to love what you do. Achievement will follow as a consequence.

By the way, not all people measure success by what's on the resume or what has been published. A lot of published literature goes unread, unheeded, and unregarded.

[melusine]

"Being endorsed by [big-name advisor] will help you publish more than being from [insert ivy name here]"

One would do well to remember that these two things (big-name advisor and big-name ivy) are NOT mutually exclusive. It is quite possible - even probable for some - that the best advisor for your interests is at an Ivy or other brand-name school.

Of course, this is not always - and quite often - not the case; it all depends on your field and your sub-interests within that field.

Exactly!

When I tell people where it is that I'm applying, I generally get this condescending little eye-roll, followed by a ho-hum comment such as "All Ivies, huh? You think you're so smart/Little miss smartypants?" (true story, both)..

And no one ever bothers to find out that the reason I'm applying there is that the advisors in those programs happen to be people I'm completely star-struck by (like I've been quoting their research in my papers since 1st year undergrad) !! Of course I want to apply to a program where Prof Awesome teaches, I've read 6 of his books!!!

.. and yet everyone just kind of assumes I'm some annoying keener who's out there to make everyone else feel stupid..

Sorry if this a little OT, but I just get tired of having to justify my app choices.

[peppermint.beatnik]

I'm in completely different field, too, katalytik, but here's my 0.02.

I'm continually surprised by how focused applicants are on "brand name." I recall reading one post, in a sub-field on the forum. The person said they were only applying to top 10 schools because they "wanted a job" upon graduation. I get what they are saying, but they seem to put an enormous emphasis on the "brand," even if it's at the expense of the type of supervision they may receive. I think the supervisor is even more important that the school.

My perspective is also skewed due to the fact that I am Canadian. We do not have the same number of post-secondary institutions, and it is standardized to a greater extent. There are not as many tiers of universities, quality-wise, in Canada.

I also worry far less about getting a job, than people on this forum. I don't if that's the Canadian in me. I'm not just optimistic, either. Everyone who finished at my MA institution, while I was there, got a job right away (Canadian, UK & US placements).

Edited February 5, 2010 by peppermint.beatnik

[JerryLandis]

I've decided to be picky, since I am applying right out of undergrad and, if unsuccessful, can always apply again later. I've applied to only 3 PhD programs, not really expecting to get into any of them, but expecting to get into a couple MA ones. I decided to only apply for so-called "brand name" universities, although this was partly because my particular interest isn't very well represented at other universities, so I'd actually fit in better at the higher ranked ones. My logic here is that it's going to be very difficult for me to get an academic job at the end of all this, so I may as well give myself the best possible chance by going to a well-known, highly reputable program. I don't really care where I end up working after my PhD, as long as it's in a nice area - but I'd like to give myself some choice down the line, so I don't think it's outrageous to be picky and snobby about grad programs.

I personally found it kind of embarrassing to apply to such fancy schmancy universities. I was afraid the professors writing my recommendation letters would think I'm delusional and exceedingly arrogant. I don't want to make a fool of myself by getting rejected everywhere, so I try to be as modest as possible when people ask me where I've applied. I hope no one associates me with those people who, upon deciding to apply to grad school, simply apply to the top 10 universities according to the US News & World Report, without even looking up anyone in the department or considering less competitive schools (and then complain about how unfair the system is when they don't get in anywhere). I simply don't want to attend a lower-ranked university, where I don't have as much in common with my advisor, unless I absolutely have to. If I don't get into a PhD program this year, I'll do an MA, then reapply much more widely, maybe even with multiple research proposals that aren't exactly what I'd ideally like to do. But I figured I'd save the money this time around and only apply to my absolute top choices.

[hogmommy]

I'm firmly in the "brand name doesn't matter for future job placement" camp. A former professor and friend, has a PhD in anthropology from Berkeley and, after more than 10 years, still has no TT position. In fact, she is not even in the anth department at a very small state school.

[artschoolhopeful]

I need to ask if the importance of the "Brand name" differs between the sciences and the humanities.

I am not sure if it's causal or correlational, but I have noticed that a large portion of tenured art history professors tend to have done graduate studies from about four top programs--Yale, Columbia, Harvard and NYU IFA.* While I agree that we all make our own opportunities, I can certainly see the benefit of having "proven" yourself from the very beginning. Since what is considered important in the humanities can become highly subjective, the validation that someone else from "important" places thought your insights interesting or significant previously may prove beneficial.

When I began to think of applying last year, one of my professors looked at the schools on my list and sternly warned me that the name of my future graduate school does carry a fair amount of rank when it comes to finding jobs post-graduation.

That being said, many of the art historians that have dominated art historical research in the 20th century have either passed or are on the brink of retirement, and thus it is becoming harder to adhere to the strict Yale, Columbia, Harvard and NYU IFA list.

*Yes, there are other top art history programs, but these seem to be the four that come up the most in my own research. Notice that I am not applying to any of these and may regrettably not get into any of the ones I did apply to due to budget cuts that are crippling some of my intended institutions.

Edited February 7, 2010 by artschoolhopeful

[artschoolhopeful]

I'm firmly in the "brand name doesn't matter for future job placement" camp. A former professor and friend, has a PhD in anthropology from Berkeley and, after more than 10 years, still has no TT position. In fact, she is not even in the anth department at a very small state school.

While I respect your opinion, I think this kind of reasoning is slightly flawed. I believe that the Brand name school DOES matter to the extent that someone coming from one of these schools may have an easier time justifying their original ideas or research than someone who is not. I am not saying this is right or that it is for certain the case, I am just trying to make sense of how most art history professors happen to graduate from the same few schools. Saying that brand name matters does not mean that every person who completes a top graduate program will automatically be guaranteed a tenure track job. The best analogy I can give is this--a nice, upper middle class high school student has very supportive parents who can pay for SAT classes and tutoring and another equally nice, poor student who has to work two part time jobs and does not have the money for SAT classes. Both have the potential and the opportunity to get into the same college, but one might have to work harder than the other. It's not that the "Brand name" guarantees success, but doesn't it make it a little easier?

*ugh sorry about all the edits. I just came from a dusty four day trip to a country in which I had no internet so forgive me.

Edited February 7, 2010 by artschoolhopeful

[katalytik]

While I respect your opinion, I think this kind of reasoning is slightly flawed. I believe that the Brand name school DOES matter to the extent that someone coming from one of these schools may have an easier time justifying their original ideas or research than someone who is not. I am not saying this is right or that it is for certain the case, I am just trying to make sense of how most art history professors happen to graduate from the same few schools. Saying that brand name matters does not mean that every person who completes a top graduate program will automatically be guaranteed a tenure track job. The best analogy I can give is this--a nice, upper middle class high school student has very supportive parents who can pay for SAT classes and tutoring and another equally nice, poor student who has to work two part time jobs and does not have the money for SAT classes. Both have the potential and the opportunity to get into the same college, but one might have to work harder than the other. It's not that the "Brand name" guarantees success, but doesn't it make it a little easier?

*ugh sorry about all the edits. I just came from a dusty four day trip to a country in which I had no internet so forgive me.

I definitely agree with this. There is no guarantee, but it helps a whole lot to be "pedigreed". It is a sad fact, and I don't necessarily agree, but that's how it is. I would prefer that the cachet was with the researcher and his/her team, and that the schools would be fighting just to have them join their university. Now, that would be cool!! I think this does happen to some extent, but I wish there was more "brand power" in the researcher and team.

[digits2006]

This is my opinion- I believe coming from Brand name school and big schools matter. I am in psychology. So, if I went to a big name school, they would have different labs that you could get research experience with easier then my school. More professors would be getting grants so there would be more studies for students to work on. For my school, I am a top candidate. I worked my ass off to talk to half the staff to find someone to work with my idea for a research project. Then, I worked my ass off to get an undergraduate grant. Then, i worked my ass off to do the study and write a manuscript and get accepted into a regional conference in march. But, if I was at a big psych school, I could have done this a lot easier. There would have been labs with many people to help with these studies. The professors would be well known because they publish multiple articles each year. So, when I apply to grad school, these people who have A LOT MORE experience are getting picked. I thought I had a lot of experience, but people at these bigger schools do. So now, I will most likely have to go to a masters program and WORK MY ASS off more so I can look at least decent when I apply to PhD programs again. I just think you have more opportunity in bigger schools/ well named schools.

[katalytik]

This is my opinion- I believe coming from Brand name school and big schools matter. I am in psychology. So, if I went to a big name school, they would have different labs that you could get research experience with easier then my school. More professors would be getting grants so there would be more studies for students to work on. For my school, I am a top candidate. I worked my ass off to talk to half the staff to find someone to work with my idea for a research project. Then, I worked my ass off to get an undergraduate grant. Then, i worked my ass off to do the study and write a manuscript and get accepted into a regional conference in march. But, if I was at a big psych school, I could have done this a lot easier. There would have been labs with many people to help with these studies. The professors would be well known because they publish multiple articles each year. So, when I apply to grad school, these people who have A LOT MORE experience are getting picked. I thought I had a lot of experience, but people at these bigger schools do. So now, I will most likely have to go to a masters program and WORK MY ASS off more so I can look at least decent when I apply to PhD programs again. I just think you have more opportunity in bigger schools/ well named schools.

Great point about access. Smart students do need to struggle just do get to cutting-edge work, which is a lot easier in branded schools....

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

Katalytik,

I'm sure that most future grad students know this already: pick the best programs for your field (and specialty), rather than the biggest "brand" names. Sure, announcing yourself as a Harvard PhD might impress your relatives at Thanksgiving dinner (until they inevitably ask: "So what is it that you do anyway?"), but the top scholars for your field might not actually be at Harvard.

Indeed. While researching schools for next year's round of applications, I discovered that only one of the programs I applied to this year is actually a really good fit for me, while I found the perfect professor in a University I never even considered (U of Illinois).

I don't know how it works in other fields, but it seems that in English, if it's a top-fifty school, they have decent-to-very good tenure track / postdoc placement. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a brand name. I found another perfect prof in Idaho State (and I never thought about Idaho State in my life).

[juror#1]

This is my opinion- I believe coming from Brand name school and big schools matter. I am in psychology. So, if I went to a big name school, they would have different labs that you could get research experience with easier then my school. More professors would be getting grants so there would be more studies for students to work on. For my school, I am a top candidate. I worked my ass off to talk to half the staff to find someone to work with my idea for a research project. Then, I worked my ass off to get an undergraduate grant. Then, i worked my ass off to do the study and write a manuscript and get accepted into a regional conference in march. But, if I was at a big psych school, I could have done this a lot easier. There would have been labs with many people to help with these studies. The professors would be well known because they publish multiple articles each year. So, when I apply to grad school, these people who have A LOT MORE experience are getting picked. I thought I had a lot of experience, but people at these bigger schools do. So now, I will most likely have to go to a masters program and WORK MY ASS off more so I can look at least decent when I apply to PhD programs again. I just think you have more opportunity in bigger schools/ well named schools.

First, I want you to know that I do agree with this, and that brand name schools will give more opportunities. However, I believe, at least in getting into grad school, which is what your primary argument focuses on, that brand name may not be as big a requirement (though it helps). Maybe this is me being optimistic, but I feel getting into graduate school is where they will look more at your hard work than at your school pedigree. For example, my current (private liberal arts) university has only 2500 students total and psychology is definately not one of its more known programs. Despite this, opportunities can be made and experience can be had with hard work, and in the end they should take that into account because it really is unfair to condemn an applicant for going to a lesser known school (especially for undergrad when a lot of people are unsure of their exact path to begin with).

Now in terms of graduate school, I do think brand name might matter a bit more, but your decision of where to apply should primarily be based on the individual advisor you wish to work with. It does seem to follow the trend that bigger named individuals tend to be at brand name schools, probably because they are offered better perks there than at other schools. It also depends on the person themselves, I know my current research advisor was struggling about whether to accept a job at a big named school or at the tiny liberal arts school she chose. In the end she decided that she was not as hungry for prestige and wanted to work more with the students in a closer relationship. So then it might be that bigger name schools get bigger names, but not necessarily the best people in the field (because my advisor is awesome, but I might be a bit biased ).

[artschoolhopeful]

First, I want you to know that I do agree with this, and that brand name schools will give more opportunities. However, I believe, at least in getting into grad school, which is what your primary argument focuses on, that brand name may not be as big a requirement (though it helps). Maybe this is me being optimistic, but I feel getting into graduate school is where they will look more at your hard work than at your school pedigree. For example, my current (private liberal arts) university has only 2500 students total and psychology is definately not one of its more known programs. Despite this, opportunities can be made and experience can be had with hard work, and in the end they should take that into account because it really is unfair to condemn an applicant for going to a lesser known school (especially for undergrad when a lot of people are unsure of their exact path to begin with).

Now in terms of graduate school, I do think brand name might matter a bit more, but your decision of where to apply should primarily be based on the individual advisor you wish to work with. It does seem to follow the trend that bigger named individuals tend to be at brand name schools, probably because they are offered better perks there than at other schools. It also depends on the person themselves, I know my current research advisor was struggling about whether to accept a job at a big named school or at the tiny liberal arts school she chose. In the end she decided that she was not as hungry for prestige and wanted to work more with the students in a closer relationship. So then it might be that bigger name schools get bigger names, but not necessarily the best people in the field (because my advisor is awesome, but I might be a bit biased ).

I don't think digits was trying to say that the actual Brand name matters in terms of prestige--I agree that it is a matter of access. Anecdotally, I know plenty of people with shiny top 10 school degrees that fall flat during the graduate school process and students from less ranked schools that go to Ivies. They all work hard, but some have to work harder. If we equate "Brand name" with more funding, resources, opportunities,etc and if we take two equally determined, hard working students, the one from the "Brand name" school may just have more opportunities and an easier time finding funding for his/her research. I went to one of those special snowflake schools and sought to use all the resources I could. A student of equal potential in a non-special snowflake school may not have the same access to the money I had for research and conferences.

Another issue that has nothing to do with prestige OR access that I don't believe I've seen on this board yet is how coming from a "Brand name" school affects your mentality. If everyone around you acts like you're a special snowflake and can only succeed, it encourages you to take greater risks and be more confident in your work/research. In my brief semester of psychology, I read something about a case study where elementary school students who were treated as "failures" tended to produce poor work, but if teachers changed their attitudes and acted as if the student was perfectly bright and capable, the student would respond to this with significant improvement.