Is it a matter to ask my weakness for the admission after the rejection?

[iwtlhf]

Hello,

I'm an international and I guess that I will be rejected from all institutions that I applied.

So I would like to know why I didn't even have the interview offer and which factors on my application were so critical for the PhD admission.

And I emailed to them and I've not heard anything from them until now.

 

Major : Neuroscience

TOEFL: 94 (sp :19)

GRE: V. 143, Q. 153, W. 3.0

GPA: Undergraduate (3.7/4.0)

         Master (3.8/4.0)

Publication:  10 publication (1st authorship: 2)

Research experience: From 2006 to 2015 ( I worked in the US during 19 months as a research assistant.....but I came back to my country by personal reasons...)

Recommendation letter: one from the Asian professor who worked with me in the US, two from post doc in the US

Applied: Weill Cornell (Neuroscience, Rejected), UCSF (Biomedical science, Rejected), UCSD(Neuroscience, Rejected), Duke (Neurobiology, Rejected),

              UT southwestern medical school (DBS, Rejected), UT health and science center at Houston (GSBS, Rejected), U of Kentucky (IBS, Rejected)

              Case western(BSTP, unknown), U of Miami (PIBS, unknown), UC Irvine (Neuroscience, unknown)

 

I know that my GRE scores are so poor. But at that time, I didn't have enough time to study because of my work. I had only a month to study for GRE.

And my recommendation letters may be very weak to substantiate my academical potential. But.....I got a problem in the US so I couldn't get the letter from the previous PI. (This is not my problem.)

And my mentor in my country could not write the letter in English so I needed to get a letter from the Asian professor who worked with me in the US.

(My Korean mentor asked me to write the letter in English instead of him, so I just wanted to be honest.....)

And before applying, I contacted to many professors in the institutions that I applied and I got several good responses from them.... 

 

I really love my job, especially stroke in the neuroscience field. Because my special skill is to induce the stroke model in the animal.

So I will apply to the graduate school again for the next year. But I have to know which part was a problem to get the admission so that I can finally move forward to the next step with my future.

I can take one more GRE and Toefl test but I cannot sure that I will have better reference letters for the next challenge.

 

My question is why no one answers my email that I asked about my weakness for the admission.

I believe that I deserve to know my weakness because I paid the application fee and I spent my time almost during 6 months for this application.

Do I look like rude if I ask my weakness for the admission? Or it is sort of private things?

I mean...that I just thought that my GRE scores could be covered with my research experience and I didn't think that my referee may be the factor to be considered as my weakness.

So I just want to figure out my PROBLEMS exactly. (It is true that I'm depressed and I'm angry for my results. But I'm trying to fix my problems regardless of my emotion.)

 

I'm not mad at all for results. It can happen and I can try one more. But I'm really upset for these non-response.

I hope that someone can let me know which is my problem and also tell me that my request may be a matter.

Thank you for your time and reading my question. 

[BigThomason51]

You nailed down the weaknesses in your app yourself; your letters and your GRE score.  Everything else looks phenomenal.  Also, you applied to some competitive schools.  Had you opened up and applied more broadly, you probably would have gotten an acceptance. 

Fingers crossed you hear something back from those last two schools, but if you don't, retake the GRE, get better letters and apply to a much larger pool of schools. 

The schools won't tell you anything different than what you have figured out for what was weak. 

Edited March 11, 2017 by BigThomason51

[Forest Owlet]

I don't know anything about your field, and how the application process works in it. But I am an international applicant who has been accepted into 2 of the 4 places I applied to (still awaiting 1 result).

My experience has been that it is almost completely dependent on the nature of the POIs you have been in touch with before/during the application process and how the interaction has been. If that went well, and the person remembers you (or he/she is a genuinely nice person), there's a chance that he/she may respond to your email and let you know what happened. Otherwise, it looks difficult. Even with just 4 applications, the responses have been right across the spectrum, from super helpful and nice to a slightly terse response (I actually got in there!), to complete silence.

While it is definitely not rude to ask for feedback on your application, you shouldn't take a stance that you deserve to know because you spent time and money on it. I don't want to be rude or unhelpful, I am just trying to explain how things are likely to work - please don't take this the wrong way! Think of it from the admissions committee's perspective - it would be unreasonable to expect them to respond to hundreds (or even dozens) of queries on how a specific application is weak.

[iwtlhf]

2 hours ago, Forest Owlet said:

I don't know anything about your field, and how the application process works in it. But I am an international applicant who has been accepted into 2 of the 4 places I applied to (still awaiting 1 result).

My experience has been that it is almost completely dependent on the nature of the POIs you have been in touch with before/during the application process and how the interaction has been. If that went well, and the person remembers you (or he/she is a genuinely nice person), there's a chance that he/she may respond to your email and let you know what happened. Otherwise, it looks difficult. Even with just 4 applications, the responses have been right across the spectrum, from super helpful and nice to a slightly terse response (I actually got in there!), to complete silence.

While it is definitely not rude to ask for feedback on your application, you shouldn't take a stance that you deserve to know because you spent time and money on it. I don't want to be rude or unhelpful, I am just trying to explain how things are likely to work - please don't take this the wrong way! Think of it from the admissions committee's perspective - it would be unreasonable to expect them to respond to hundreds (or even dozens) of queries on how a specific application is weak.

Thanks for your answer! But I didn't show my stance in my email, when I asked my weakness to them.

I also want to be polite to them as much as I can. I just tried to explain my passion to challenge again.

I think that I got several good answers from POIs I contacted before applying. But it seems like that you have sort of a conversation with them.

What I got is like "Yes, I will consider you as a student, if you get an admission". Very short and simple messages...

I cannot sure how it works and anyway....it seems like very irrational thing to know the striking factor of the admission.....wow....

Thanks again!

[Forest Owlet]

Just go with a short, simple and polite email asking for feedback on your application and any hints as to why it was rejected, so that you can work on your profile and submit a stronger application in the next cycle. If they don't respond, send a polite reminder in a couple of weeks time (many profs are likely to be busy with admissions decisions and responding to selected applicants queries about the offer). Yet another polite reminder a couple of weeks after that might not be a bad thing, but do let it go after that if they don't respond. I am sure that you will get help here on gradcafe on your profile, and there are lots of folks, especially from your field, who can guide you to ensure a stronger application. Don't give up, lose hope or let the frustration get to you 

[Eshtah]

I am also an international applicant and have successfully applied to PhD programs in the US.

Your GRE scores aren't actually that important as long as you have a high TOEFL score and aren't too bad in the Quantitative part (you should work on this). However, I suspect that you didn't have much of a chance based on your TOEFL scores. All programs I know require a minimum score of 100, mostly with a minimum score of 20 or 25 in the speaking and writing sections. That's the first problem.

The second problem is your letters of recommendation. I know how hard it can be to get letters of recommendation especially for an international applicant. Writing the letters yourself can be acceptable if your adviser does not know English. He should definitely understand, however, what he is signing and support it! If asked, he should always confirm that he stands behind this letter of recommendation. I suggest asking him how he would describe you in his own words, take note and then write it in English. American letters of recommendation can be very emotional and almost a bit exaggerated in their tone. This can easily be an issue (believe me, I know what I am talking about). Make sure that your advisers know that this enthusiastic tone is really very normal in the US and that they should really account for this cultural difference if they want to support you. 

I cannot stress enough how important your letters of recommendations are. Your advisers probably don't have much of a network in the US and might not be very well-known in the US. I had this problem. Your letters of recommendation are the only chance you have to be introduced and to give your POIs an idea of who you are. They have to make up for you not having the network and the "names" on your side. 

If you want to reapply next year, I recommend preparing early. Study for the GRE (especially the Quantitative part), improve your TOEFL score by a lot, contact faculty members in the US and tell them about your topic and interest to work with them and work on three strong letters of recommendation. If you need help, there is a very recommendable service from theprofessorisin.com (I did not use this service myself, but a friend did). There you can read all about applying to the US and if you are willing to pay some money, you can get customized advise on your paperwork including your Statement of Purpose etc. 

Good luck!

[DiscoTech]

7 hours ago, iwtlhf said:

My question is why no one answers my email that I asked about my weakness for the admission.

I believe that I deserve to know my weakness because I paid the application fee and I spent my time almost during 6 months for this application.

Sorry, but no you don't. Admissions decisions often made by multiple people working together as a committee or by a single faculty member. Departments have to review thousands of applications and it is unreasonable to expect that they would remember your application, let alone remember why they chose to pass on your application. This is ridiculous.

As a foreign student, you face some obstacles that US students do not. First is that US faculty do not have a good way to judge the rigor of your education if your degree is from a foreign institution since they probably haven't heard of it. And even if they've heard of it, they probably don't have much experience working with students from your school. The exceptions are elite institutions like Technion, ETH, IITs, etc ... 

GRE scores help faculty unfamiliar with your educational background (assuming it is from a foreign university) decide whether they should take the leap of faith and trust that you are comparable to an applicant who has a similar GPA in the US. This isn't perfect, but it is all they have. 143/153 are ridiculously low for any STEM field. 

Finally, if faculty don't know what to make of your GPA and your GRE score given them reasons to worry, you need at least one stellar letter of recommendation (probably 3 stellar ones, honestly). It sounds like you had trouble there to.

The good news is that you know where you weakness lie. You can work to remedy them.

 

 

[Sigaba]

Bluntly, one of your weaknesses is evident in your OP; you don't take ownership of what went wrong for you. You couldn't study enough for the GRE because of your job. You had a problem in the U.S. that impacted getting a LoR but it is not your problem. You asked someone to write a LoR but his English language skills aren't up to the task. 

And your emotional state is unclear. You are depressed and angry for your results but you're "not mad at all." 

I recommend that before you ask for guidance on how to be a more competitive applicant in the future, you should work on your mindset. It's entirely on you to put yourself in the best position possible to do as well as you can on the GRE (if you take it again), to get the paperwork to go where you need to go, to develop relationships with people who can write you good LoRs, and to develop relationships with professors who might want to work with you.

[Eshtah]

I gotta step in here and speak out for our OP.

If you're not an international applicant, you have no idea how hard it can be getting LoRs that measure up to the American enthusiastic tone. You might think that every serious academic all over the world is probably comfortable with writing an English LoR, but that's simply not true. It's a sh*t show to apply as an international student and while there is tons of support and expertise available for undergrad students within the US, nobody has given me any piece of advice and my first application failed mainly because of lack of advice and support from my home university. And I come from a German top university. 

Give him a break. This forum is the exact right place for asking what went wrong. Whom else is an international student supposed to ask? 

So, itwlhf: Do not give up! Reapply next year and in the meantime work on:

1) Your Quantitative score in the GRE

2) Your TOEFL score

3) Your Letters of Recommendation. 

Visit theprofessorisin.com and read everything on it. Ask for help. Let colleagues take a look at your application and appreciate critical feedback. And use this forum and all the expertise that is on here.

[duran0]

2 hours ago, Eshtah said:

Give him a break. This forum is the exact right place for asking what went wrong. Whom else is an international student supposed to ask? 

Sure, but OP is not here asking us for advice on what went wrong. Instead, the question "is why no one answers my email that I asked about my weakness for the admission." I am very, very sympathetic to the difficulty of applying to grad school as an international student, as I too was once in that same stressful position - actually from the same country that OP is from. I don't know what it's like for Germans, but there are actually lots of Korean language resources for applying to US grad school. Anyone on those websites/forums, including Korean nationals, could tell him that his low TOEFL and GRE scores would sink the application. In any case, the OP seems to think that they are entitled to a detailed response about the weaknesses of their application, which is odd since that would not be the norm from Korean universities either. Not only do they risk annoying someone who might be on the admissions committee next year, they don't need a response: the problem is perfectly clear, as you've identified. 

Anyway, the other thing OP can look into is certified translation for a letter of recommendation from his Korean mentor if he does not feel comfortable writing his own letter - which I totally understand. Some of my friends have used this route. If the above post is indicative of the quality of English in the SOP and other admissions documents, the OP would also benefit from getting a native speaker to proofread his materials. 

Lastly, this is a bitter pill to swallow, but the OP also needs to acknowledge that even the best universities, fellowships, work experiences, etc in South Korea are simply not well-regarded in the U.S. I really do sympathize, because I still feel an irrational tingle whenever I remember how I legit almost killed myself as a high schooler to get to a school that no one here acknowledges or understands. Accepting that "top Korean school" =/= "top U.S. school" is a first step. The second step is to understand that getting into PhD programs is really challenging for everyone, including U.S. citizens, and that Asian students should plan accordingly. One tip for choosing schools: check currently enrolled grad students and see if there's a history of accepting applicants from other international Asian universities. A brief glance at UCSF, for example, suggests that it's probably not a good idea to apply, since there are very few students from non-US undergrad institutions.

All things considered, it seems like OP was probably shooting too high this round. (In their shoes, I wouldn't have bothered with any of the UCs.) Schools like UT and Miami are probably good "reach" programs. There are other schools that are known for being friendlier to international student admissions, like UIUC and Purdue, that the OP might consider. To strengthen the application, the OP might also think about applying to scholarships administered by the Korean government or U.S. scholarships like Fulbright. International students are more attractive if they have funding in hand. 

Don't give up, OP! I know how frustrating and embarrassing getting shut out can be. But you also need to acknowledge that blaming others or sending futile emails will not help you accomplish your dreams.

[AP]

11 minutes ago, duran0 said:

Anyway, the other thing OP can look into is certified translation for a letter of recommendation from his Korean mentor if he does not feel comfortable writing his own letter - which I totally understand. Some of my friends have used this route. If the above post is indicative of the quality of English in the SOP and other admissions documents, the OP would also benefit from getting a native speaker to proofread his materials. 

This. 

I was fortunate to have fellow countrymen willing to read my materials but if not, I would have ended up asking my GRE coach to help me with them as well. 

[iwtlhf]

17 hours ago, Forest Owlet said:

Just go with a short, simple and polite email asking for feedback on your application and any hints as to why it was rejected, so that you can work on your profile and submit a stronger application in the next cycle. If they don't respond, send a polite reminder in a couple of weeks time (many profs are likely to be busy with admissions decisions and responding to selected applicants queries about the offer). Yet another polite reminder a couple of weeks after that might not be a bad thing, but do let it go after that if they don't respond. I am sure that you will get help here on gradcafe on your profile, and there are lots of folks, especially from your field, who can guide you to ensure a stronger application. Don't give up, lose hope or let the frustration get to you 

Thanks! I will! And after getting of your answer, I don't expect to get the answer!  

[iwtlhf]

17 hours ago, BigThomason51 said:

You nailed down the weaknesses in your app yourself; your letters and your GRE score.  Everything else looks phenomenal.  Also, you applied to some competitive schools.  Had you opened up and applied more broadly, you probably would have gotten an acceptance. 

Fingers crossed you hear something back from those last two schools, but if you don't, retake the GRE, get better letters and apply to a much larger pool of schools. 

The schools won't tell you anything different than what you have figured out for what was weak. 

Thanks a lot for your answer!

I just want to know about my weakness and now make sure about my problems!

[iwtlhf]

16 hours ago, Eshtah said:

I am also an international applicant and have successfully applied to PhD programs in the US.

Your GRE scores aren't actually that important as long as you have a high TOEFL score and aren't too bad in the Quantitative part (you should work on this). However, I suspect that you didn't have much of a chance based on your TOEFL scores. All programs I know require a minimum score of 100, mostly with a minimum score of 20 or 25 in the speaking and writing sections. That's the first problem.

The second problem is your letters of recommendation. I know how hard it can be to get letters of recommendation especially for an international applicant. Writing the letters yourself can be acceptable if your adviser does not know English. He should definitely understand, however, what he is signing and support it! If asked, he should always confirm that he stands behind this letter of recommendation. I suggest asking him how he would describe you in his own words, take note and then write it in English. American letters of recommendation can be very emotional and almost a bit exaggerated in their tone. This can easily be an issue (believe me, I know what I am talking about). Make sure that your advisers know that this enthusiastic tone is really very normal in the US and that they should really account for this cultural difference if they want to support you. 

I cannot stress enough how important your letters of recommendations are. Your advisers probably don't have much of a network in the US and might not be very well-known in the US. I had this problem. Your letters of recommendation are the only chance you have to be introduced and to give your POIs an idea of who you are. They have to make up for you not having the network and the "names" on your side. 

If you want to reapply next year, I recommend preparing early. Study for the GRE (especially the Quantitative part), improve your TOEFL score by a lot, contact faculty members in the US and tell them about your topic and interest to work with them and work on three strong letters of recommendation. If you need help, there is a very recommendable service from theprofessorisin.com (I did not use this service myself, but a friend did). There you can read all about applying to the US and if you are willing to pay some money, you can get customized advise on your paperwork including your Statement of Purpose etc. 

Good luck!

I truly appreciate for your all words. Now I am considering to apply as a research assistant again. And I hope that I can finally get the good letters, if I work in the US again!

Thanks!

[iwtlhf]

13 hours ago, Sigaba said:

Bluntly, one of your weaknesses is evident in your OP; you don't take ownership of what went wrong for you. You couldn't study enough for the GRE because of your job. You had a problem in the U.S. that impacted getting a LoR but it is not your problem. You asked someone to write a LoR but his English language skills aren't up to the task. 

And your emotional state is unclear. You are depressed and angry for your results but you're "not mad at all." 

I recommend that before you ask for guidance on how to be a more competitive applicant in the future, you should work on your mindset. It's entirely on you to put yourself in the best position possible to do as well as you can on the GRE (if you take it again), to get the paperwork to go where you need to go, to develop relationships with people who can write you good LoRs, and to develop relationships with professors who might want to work with you.

Ok, here's a thing. I will tell you why I didn't get the letter from the PI who worked with me in the US.

He has so many problems and the biggest one is a sexual harassment. And when my previous PI in the US and I went to one country for teaching how to induce the stroke model in the animal, there was a problem to have just one room due to the mistake of the host. And he said that he was considering to sleep with me in the same room. He didn't mention to sleep together. He just said his consideration that he slept on the couch or floor in the same room. Finally, we could fix this problem by having the another room, but can you imagine how much I was scared after this accident? Before that accident, I just heard his so many gossips but I didn't care. And now I know that sometimes I have to believe gossips. 

Do I have to develop better relationships? Maybe. But how can I take the letters from postdocs to work with me in the US, it I have a bad relationship with them? 

Besides, this is not my first application. I was trying to avoid coming back to the US because of that ACCIDENT. I'm so scared so that be careful for every my steps. So I applied to the Karolinska institute in Sweden and I just asked him to write the letter. And he didn't respond.

Was our ending so bad? Nope. I had to write the resignation letter, because he asked me to stay more as a research assistant or student.

I'm still scared to apply the institutions in the US. Because I cannot anticipate what's going on my life due to the language barrier and the culture. But I really love my job so I need to face my barriers, the INTERNATIONAL things. I don't think that I need more mindset. I just wanted to know the reason why they didn't reply for my email. Because it is a normal thing in my country to respond for whatever emails, despite the bad news. I probably understand all words from them even though they cannot share with me.

[iwtlhf]

9 hours ago, duran0 said:

Sure, but OP is not here asking us for advice on what went wrong. Instead, the question "is why no one answers my email that I asked about my weakness for the admission." I am very, very sympathetic to the difficulty of applying to grad school as an international student, as I too was once in that same stressful position - actually from the same country that OP is from. I don't know what it's like for Germans, but there are actually lots of Korean language resources for applying to US grad school. Anyone on those websites/forums, including Korean nationals, could tell him that his low TOEFL and GRE scores would sink the application. In any case, the OP seems to think that they are entitled to a detailed response about the weaknesses of their application, which is odd since that would not be the norm from Korean universities either. Not only do they risk annoying someone who might be on the admissions committee next year, they don't need a response: the problem is perfectly clear, as you've identified. 

Anyway, the other thing OP can look into is certified translation for a letter of recommendation from his Korean mentor if he does not feel comfortable writing his own letter - which I totally understand. Some of my friends have used this route. If the above post is indicative of the quality of English in the SOP and other admissions documents, the OP would also benefit from getting a native speaker to proofread his materials. 

Lastly, this is a bitter pill to swallow, but the OP also needs to acknowledge that even the best universities, fellowships, work experiences, etc in South Korea are simply not well-regarded in the U.S. I really do sympathize, because I still feel an irrational tingle whenever I remember how I legit almost killed myself as a high schooler to get to a school that no one here acknowledges or understands. Accepting that "top Korean school" =/= "top U.S. school" is a first step. The second step is to understand that getting into PhD programs is really challenging for everyone, including U.S. citizens, and that Asian students should plan accordingly. One tip for choosing schools: check currently enrolled grad students and see if there's a history of accepting applicants from other international Asian universities. A brief glance at UCSF, for example, suggests that it's probably not a good idea to apply, since there are very few students from non-US undergrad institutions.

All things considered, it seems like OP was probably shooting too high this round. (In their shoes, I wouldn't have bothered with any of the UCs.) Schools like UT and Miami are probably good "reach" programs. There are other schools that are known for being friendlier to international student admissions, like UIUC and Purdue, that the OP might consider. To strengthen the application, the OP might also think about applying to scholarships administered by the Korean government or U.S. scholarships like Fulbright. International students are more attractive if they have funding in hand. 

Don't give up, OP! I know how frustrating and embarrassing getting shut out can be. But you also need to acknowledge that blaming others or sending futile emails will not help you accomplish your dreams.

Same country? Are you Korean? I cannot sure your nation, but you seem like not to know the Korean style so much. 

And I didn't write that I graduated from a famous school from Korea.....so I don't understand why you are bringing "the top Korean school" problem on the table...

And why I applied to the UCSF program...because I got the answer from one of the professor who I contacted. She said that she will consider me as a graduate student, if I will get the admission. And I'm sorry not to describe my question very well. I meant the reason why they didn't answer my email with the asking of my weakness. That's why I wrote my profile. Anyway, thanks.

[Calmankpin]

To answer the original question - why you have not received personal answers regarding the dismissal of your application, there are a multitude of possibilities. Foremost, professors may have simply decided to ignore the email. No one will be able to explain why this is the case, but it is certainly a possibility. It also seems that the correspondence with potential advisors was rather impersonal. From what you have suggested, the professors only said they would consider mentoring you if you where admitted. Responding in such a manner signifies a lack of personal investment on their part, and so I am not surprised it has been difficult getting a follow-up response.

Instead of emailing specific professors, you might try emailing the graduate or admissions coordinator at each of the schools you applied to. These individuals are typically more responsive than individual professors might be.

Looking towards next year, I think you have already identified the ways you can improve your application. The GRE and TOEFL scores must come up. Often applications whose standardized test scores fall below a threshold are tossed aside without consideration for the remainder of the application. At a minimum the goal is to not be in that category. Recommendation letters are tricky because of the time it takes to build a rapport with someone. The best bet is to keep working intensely with your current advisors and possibly branch out to a new lab. In general, a post-doc signing a letter of rec is not highly regarded. Instead you might want to have the post-doc write the letter because they know your more intimately, but have the PI of the lab sign the letter.

Good luck with admissions next cycle.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Calmankpin
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