Post-bacc or online study recs? (To buff up application!)

[chellyfish_]

Hey all!

I'm already thinking ahead to next year's PhD apps, and a definite place I could use improvement is in languages.  I'm MedRen, and while I have intermediate Italian and (very) elementary French, I really need at least Latin to be competitive and boost my application.  Unfortunately my undergraduate self did not have the foresight to plan for this, and my Masters program (graduating this month) didn't have the flexibility to allow extra study.  Theoretically I could start studying Latin by myself, but I imagine this means very little to PhD Lit programs, and they'd really want to see evidence of hard study (ex/ post-bacc study or online study).

So my question is -- what are people's experiences with Classics post-bacc, or really any post-bacc having to do with this area?  How do I go about getting into this if I have no Classics experience? (To clarify: no Classics experience in Latin or Ancient Greek language, though I do have a BA and MA in English so have read English translations of Classic texts.)  I wish an intensive summer course was an option, but I work full time teaching English and reading over the summers!   If it was entirely online or self-paced I might be able to do it! 

Unfortunately it's unrealistic for me to move, so I'm mostly looking for any recommendations for online post-baccs (cheaper, I imagine) or in person ones around the California Bay Area / central CA. (The only online one I've turned up in my initial search is UGA, and I've already sent them an inquiry!)  

And also since I'm asking a load of questions here...if anyone has any non-post-bacc certificate idea to buff up Latin languages, I'm all ears!    Thanks in advance for any advice, and I hope other people might benefit from this info too! 

Edited April 15, 2017 by cheldorado

[Thersites]

 

There are definitely plenty of great Universities with classical studies post-bac programs. UC Davis comes to mind, it would roughly cost $7200 to do all 24-credit hours and receive the certificate. I am sure other UC's have similar programs that cost around the same.

That being said, I am not sure if the post-bac is necessary, and hopefully people with more experience than myself will be able to provide some insight. Independent study of the language would be great, but I think you are correct to assume that this will mean little to nothing to the adcomm. You could perhaps quote a passage from something in Greek or Latin and provide your own translation? 

If you are looking for some where to begin, with regards to your independent study, check out this https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/grkol

Also if you are familiar with cases and basics of translation and pronunciation, this, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

This probably isn't that helpful, but hopefully a bump will catch the attention of someone with greater knowledge!

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thersites

[loganondorf]

I'm also MedRen, and honestly, my only exposure to Latin was through a one-semester intensive course. That's all I have on my transcript, and through coupling that with independent study, I was able to list basic competence in Latin on my C.V. In my epxerience through talking with professors, adcomms tend to look at your languages and trust your listed experience; if you feel that you can achieve basic competence (or better) through independent study, you'll likely be fine with that.

All that's to say that I wouldn't pour much money into post-bacc programs, because even one class should prove sufficient to boost your C.V. About half of the medievalists I know who've been admitted to Ph.D. programs had no real experience with Latin, and their programs didn't have much problem with this either. 

A caveat: some programs (Toronto's is the big name that comes to mind) are very particular about your Latin knowledge, and they'll want to see very strong language skills. If you have an eye on those programs, then disregard my advice. But there are plenty of very strong MedRen programs that aren't particularly bothered about your languages, because you'll have plenty of time to pick them up once you're admitted.

(For independent study, I recommend Wheelock's Latin, since it's very user-friendly, though Moreland & Fleischer is more intensive and perhaps better-suited to a graduate-level plan of study.)

[ThousandsHardships]

My friend (a medievalist PhD student at NYU) audited Latin 1 at Berkeley over the summer. Did all the assignments and everything. Auditing is not too commonly allowed in language classes, but for some reason she was able to do it. Maybe you ought to try something like that. She also audited other classes in Latin and in related medieval languages when teaching abroad during her gap year. She wrote all this in her statements so the schools were aware of it.

[Dr. Old Bill]

Just adding my voice to say that I'm an early modernist, and my only language other than English is Spanish...which was taken in my first four semesters of undergrad. I have no Latin, no Italian...yet I got into a very good M.A. program two years ago, and a great Ph.D. program this cycle. Perhaps I would have had more success if I had more language training, but it obviously wasn't a big issue overall.

That being said, I'm admittedly a bit anxious about learning Latin (or perhaps Italian) in a fairly short span of time, and if I'd had the time earlier, I would have liked to have taken a language course at some point. My point, however, is that it's likely not essential for application purposes, though it may help a little.

[heliogabalus]

You wouldn't get into a Classics post-bac without some Latin and Greek. They're really for people who have 3 years of Latin and 1 of Greek, or maybe 2 and 2. Check out Berkeley and CUNY's intensive summer Latin programs.

[cowgirlsdontcry]

If you're doing medren, why no Old English in addition to the Latin? Have you looked at language requirements for each of the schools you are interested in? I am beginning a Ph.D. in English with a literature track this fall at the University of Alabama, where they have the Hudson Strode Program in Renaissance Studies. Its language requirements are the same as for literature. That requirement is two languages (4 semesters each) with a B, passing of translation tests, or one language with advanced knowledge (2 semesters at the 400 level). I have six semesters for one language covered in undergrad French, but have only two semesters in Spanish, which means taking another two semesters of Spanish or trying to accomplish two additional semesters of French at a 400 level. Hmmmm. Sophomore Spanish is less stressful. So that will be my direction if my advisor allows it. A look at the language requirements should be your first step I think. It may be less stressful than you think.

[imogenshakes]

On 4/16/2017 at 5:37 PM, Old Bill said:

Just adding my voice to say that I'm an early modernist, and my only language other than English is Spanish...which was taken in my first four semesters of undergrad. I have no Latin, no Italian...yet I got into a very good M.A. program two years ago, and a great Ph.D. program this cycle. Perhaps I would have had more success if I had more language training, but it obviously wasn't a big issue overall.

That being said, I'm admittedly a bit anxious about learning Latin (or perhaps Italian) in a fairly short span of time, and if I'd had the time earlier, I would have liked to have taken a language course at some point. My point, however, is that it's likely not essential for application purposes, though it may help a little.

Same. My UG language was German. Thankfully, though Davis requires reading fluency in two foreign languages, one of those can be satisfied by three semesters of UG-level language courses passed with a satisfactory grade. All they need is the transcript. Hooray!

Anyway, I took Latin for five years in middle and high school, but I never mentioned it in my application because it's pretty much gone. I didn't care a lick as a teen, since I thought I was going to be performing piano professionally by now (ha). I'm sure some of it will come back, but I'm basically treating it as a "learning from scratch" situation. That said, without mentioning any languages on my app, I got into four top-30 programs (two top-20, however you want to slice it). The one place I DID mention it (because the app asked directly) was George Washington, and that was the only place I was waitlisted. So I really think it doesn't matter for an English PhD. Classics? I'm sure. Comp lit? Yes. But everything else...I'd just echo @Old Bill's last point.

[gnossienne n.3]

Toronto's Latin exams are widely considered the industry standard. If you want to teach yourself, sitting and passing the Level One exam should be sufficient evidence of your Latin abilities. The exams are offered twice a year, in April and September. The deadline to apply to take the exam this September as an "external applicant" (not a Toronto student) is August 1. They have about 20 years' worth of previous exams available on their website, which are probably the best possible practice once you've mastered the basics.

If I were you, I would work on building up my French as well, or perhaps in the place of attempting to learn Latin in a summer while juggling a full time job. Unless it's so elementary it's not worth mentioning, you already have a basis to work from, which isn't the case with Latin. Competence in two modern languages is worth quite a lot, as it shows that you have the ability to pick up languages. Having both Italian and French will set admissions committees' minds at ease that you'll be capable of learning Latin at an accelerated rate once you're in the program.

Certainly speak with your references and faculty contacts/POIs at the schools you're considering, and look back over the language requirements for your programs. If you lean sufficiently early modern and it makes sense for your research area, building on your French (or Old English, as someone mentioned earlier) might make more sense than trying to cram Latin in around the edges of a summer.