Thoughts and Advice for Applicants with lower GPA/GRE stats..

[mei]

Hey all!

I'm a newcomer to this forum, and I've been browsing around the various threads to get some information on different schools, other candidates' backgrounds, etc, to gauge my standing as well as a Fall 2010 applicant in IR grad studies. As an applicant who doesn't have stellar GPA or GRE stats, I'd really love to hear some stories of others, who have applied to or are already attending grad school, who don't necessarily have the standard high GPA/GRE scores but still were competitive and able to get into some of the top programs. What kinds of work experiences did you have? Did you address your weak GPA in the application? What aspects of your application do you think made the case for you when being accepted to these programs? Any thoughts/encouragement/discouragement/constructive advice would be awesome, since I'm getting more and more paranoid as each day towards March/April draws nearer....

Thanks in advance!

[gazelle]

I think you're going to see an influx of people here with 3.5+ GPAs and 1400+ GREs telling you they have "lower" GPA/GRE scores. Not meant as a slight to those people, but this site is filled with people who have pretty impressive profiles. Me on the other hand, I have a 3.1 and a 1250 GRE, doh.

[mei]

I think you're going to see an influx of people here with 3.5+ GPAs and 1400+ GREs telling you they have "lower" GPA/GRE scores. Not meant as a slight to those people, but this site is filled with people who have pretty impressive profiles. Me on the other hand, I have a 3.1 and a 1250 GRE, doh.

I have a similar profile in terms of GPA/GRE stats...what kind of programs have you applied to, if you don't mind me asking? I've applied to about 8 schools, but my top choices are Yale MA in IR, Chicago's MA in IR, Columbia SIPA's MIA, and USC MA in Public Diplomacy. From peering into older threads, I did see some encouraging posts from people with lower GPA/GRE stats who were successful in getting into the top schools through LOR, SOP, and solid working experience...but, I'm still pretty intimidated/terrified and still have nightmares of getting 8 rejection letters!

[coyabean]

My stats are even lower - though slightly -- than those above and I'm moving on along.

Your best bet is to prove you can do the work by doing the work. That means taking every research project and opportunity you can. However, for the schools you have listed it is important to hear the truth: numbers matter. Your app won't even be read if you don't clear the cut-off. So, if its feasible pour yourself into your GRE prep and get it up a bit then try that. However, I would strongly suggest buffering that reality with applications across the spectrum. There have to be solid non-top 10 programs that you would be happy to attend?

Beyond that I suggest networking if you are good at that kind of thing. If not, then DON'T. This is important because I've seen people talk themselves out of consideration.

[mei]

My stats are even lower - though slightly -- than those above and I'm moving on along.

Your best bet is to prove you can do the work by doing the work. That means taking every research project and opportunity you can. However, for the schools you have listed it is important to hear the truth: numbers matter. Your app won't even be read if you don't clear the cut-off. So, if its feasible pour yourself into your GRE prep and get it up a bit then try that. However, I would strongly suggest buffering that reality with applications across the spectrum. There have to be solid non-top 10 programs that you would be happy to attend?

Beyond that I suggest networking if you are good at that kind of thing. If not, then DON'T. This is important because I've seen people talk themselves out of consideration.

Thanks for the reply/thoughts! I've already sent in all my apps, so not much I can do to reverse that, but I'll definitely keep your advice in mind if I end up having to re-apply next year. On that note, how much do you think Letters of Rec, Work Experience, and SoP matter in relevance to GPA/GRE? I've had 2 years out of undegrad working in very relevant places - the most recent one doing research and consulting for a foreign government. My letters of rec are all very strong, one from a US Ambassador, one from a foreign Ambassador, and one from my undergrad professor. I also speak 2 foreign languages fluently, and 2 others limited conversationally. I was a double major in the arts as well, and so I have a lot of extracurricular activities/awards/achievements from that side of things. Do you think these will all hold much less weight, or even worse, not even looked at, because of my GPA/GRE?

[joro]

I think you're going to see an influx of people here with 3.5+ GPAs and 1400+ GREs telling you they have "lower" GPA/GRE scores. Not meant as a slight to those people, but this site is filled with people who have pretty impressive profiles. Me on the other hand, I have a 3.1 and a 1250 GRE, doh.

We have the same GPA and GRE scores! I have a 3.11 and a 760q/490v/4.5a. I don't think my stats are impressive either. Aside from this, I was pretty active in a few clubs at school (not an officer in any, besides one where I fixed up their website) and volunteer work. The only thing that might raise a few eyebrows might be my work as a RA at Stanford, but it was completely unrelated to what I want to do.

[gazelle]

Yep, I was a 3.12 with 730Q/520V/5.0AW. I am worried about the not-so-mythical GPA/GRE cutoffs, but I have seen people admitted to Columbia SIPA with 510V and a 3.2x GPA. Thus, I know I clear the GRE cutoffs (I was worried about the verbal score), but the GPA I'm not so sure...I have a feeling the cut is 3.2 which is a shame, since I've seen nobody with a sub-3.2 admitted.

[joro]

Yep, I was a 3.12 with 730Q/520V/5.0AW. I am worried about the not-so-mythical GPA/GRE cutoffs, but I have seen people admitted to Columbia SIPA with 510V and a 3.2x GPA. Thus, I know I clear the GRE cutoffs (I was worried about the verbal score), but the GPA I'm not so sure...I have a feeling the cut is 3.2 which is a shame, since I've seen nobody with a sub-3.2 admitted.

I wouldn't worry so much about the GPA cutoffs. I was accepted into a school last year in my program which had a 3.3+ GPA requirement. I'm more worried about the GRE than the GPA for myself. I really wish I did at least break 500 for the verbal. I honestly expected myself to get a 550 easily, but I guess that wasn't the case when I took it.

[gazelle]

I wouldn't worry so much about the GPA cutoffs. I was accepted into a school last year in my program which had a 3.3+ GPA requirement. I'm more worried about the GRE than the GPA for myself. I really wish I did at least break 500 for the verbal. I honestly expected myself to get a 550 easily, but I guess that wasn't the case when I took it.

Same with me on the verbal section--I was consistently hitting around the 600-650 mark during practice tests, and then the real test ended up being a 520, and boy was I pissed. But, I took it 8 days before moving to Japan in July of 2008, and thus couldn't retake it a second time...poor planning on myself for not taking it the first time in June so that if I needed to retake it I could take it again in July due to the once-per-calendar-month rule. I was also apprehensive about taking it a second time for fear my quantitative wouldn't be as high, and I didn't want to risk getting a bad score there and having the scores average; in retrospect now I know that most schools pick and choose the best scores from each section, so that was a bit disheartening as well.

Some days I wish I would've stayed in liberal arts, where I was a comfy 3.8x two years into the honors program. Ah well, such is life.

[gazelle]

I have a similar profile in terms of GPA/GRE stats...what kind of programs have you applied to, if you don't mind me asking? I've applied to about 8 schools, but my top choices are Yale MA in IR, Chicago's MA in IR, Columbia SIPA's MIA, and USC MA in Public Diplomacy. From peering into older threads, I did see some encouraging posts from people with lower GPA/GRE stats who were successful in getting into the top schools through LOR, SOP, and solid working experience...but, I'm still pretty intimidated/terrified and still have nightmares of getting 8 rejection letters!

I missed your question there, my mistake...I only applied to two programs--UCSD's IR/PS for an MPIA, and Columbia's SIPA for an MIA. Still hopeful!!

[mei]

Thanks for all your comments.

Most of the program websites assure that there is not GPA cutoff, and that they look at the "whole package." I guess this obscurity of what that entails is what makes me uneasy about whether my background (GPA/GRE, Work experience, everything combined) might make me somewhat competitive. Oh well...I guess we just have to give it our best and cross our fingers! I'd love to hear from people with acceptances into Policy/IR/Poli Sci MA/MPP programs that might have some encouraging stories to tell...

Gazelle, I also applied to UCSD IR/PS! Do you have any idea when results may come in?

[gazelle]

Thanks for all your comments.

Most of the program websites assure that there is not GPA cutoff, and that they look at the "whole package." I guess this obscurity of what that entails is what makes me uneasy about whether my background (GPA/GRE, Work experience, everything combined) might make me somewhat competitive. Oh well...I guess we just have to give it our best and cross our fingers! I'd love to hear from people with acceptances into Policy/IR/Poli Sci MA/MPP programs that might have some encouraging stories to tell...

Gazelle, I also applied to UCSD IR/PS! Do you have any idea when results may come in?

No idea, they don't say other than that they will contact you 4-6 weeks from the receipt of all materials, presumably to tell you your app is complete. I sent all my stuff in in November, but one letter didn't get in until just after the New Year, so it's been about 5.5 weeks since they got my stuff but still not a peep. Early deadline people are getting results now, but for standard deadline I have a feeling it will be a long time.

[mei]

No idea, they don't say other than that they will contact you 4-6 weeks from the receipt of all materials, presumably to tell you your app is complete. I sent all my stuff in in November, but one letter didn't get in until just after the New Year, so it's been about 5.5 weeks since they got my stuff but still not a peep. Early deadline people are getting results now, but for standard deadline I have a feeling it will be a long time.

I just checked the UCSD IR/PS FAQ page and I found this:

The priority MPIA admissions deadline is December 1, and the round 2 MPIA admissions deadline is January 12. Decision notification for the early deadline can be expected by the first week in February. Decision notification for the round 2 deadline can be expected by the first week of April.

So that sounds about right . Still a long way to go...sigh!

[gazelle]

2 more months? Ugh, that's a long time considering it's already been 2.5 since I finished my apps.

[annie a]

Hi all,

What about a very poor undergrad GPA of 2.77 but a graduate GPA of 3.5 (MPH)?

Will they automatically just throw out my app when they first see the 2.77 or will they look deeper into my grad transcripts?

[cmnt29]

From the Sipa admissions blog (hopefully helps you breath easier)

http://rtl.lamp.columbia.edu/sites/sipa/tag/gre/

The Matrix

Friday, November 20th, 2009

I am hesitant sometimes to use personal experience/opinions when blogging about admissions issues, but every once in a while I will toss in a cultural reference that I understand maybe not everyone will understand. We have applicants from over 100 countries each year and I understand that not everyone may understand the context, but I try to add enough detail to make the point understood.

One of my favorite movies is The Matrix. I remember pondering the plot for days after I first saw it. A good movie for me is one that makes me think for a while after seeing it. I was not huge fan of the second and third installments, I think they should have left it at one movie, but such is the Hollywood model of producing sequels when a first installment of a film is a hit.

Anyway, for those who have not seen the movie the plot is based upon machines that set up a virtual reality called the Matrix. Computer programs are written to provide humans with a world that they believe is real, but is not. Humans are connected to the Matrix and do not physically live in the world, rather they live life as if a character in a computer program. Why? Well the machines wanted to tame humans and use them as energy sources after the war between machines and man cut off sunlight to the earth of course! If you have not seen the movie, no, sleep deprivation from my travel schedule has not caused me to go off the deep end, it really is the plot =)

What does this have to do with admissions? Well I think that sometimes we buy into a sort of Matrix regarding goals we wish to accomplish in life. In some cases our society convinces us that there is a formula associated with the goals people have or achievements we seek to accomplish. Admission to graduate school is a goal many have and society has led many to believe that admission to a graduate program is a Matrix. Why do I believe this? Primarily because two of the most common questions I have been asked as I have been traveling this fall are:

* What is the average GPA required for someone to gain admission?

* What are the average GRE scores of an incoming student?

These are two questions that I dodge like an adept politician (or should I say like Neo dodging bullets?). Why? Well two primary reasons are the diversity of age in our applicant pool along with the fact that we receive applications from over 100 countries each year. Last year we received transcripts from close to 900 different universities and the youngest enrolled student this year is 21 and the oldest is 51. With so many countries, universities, teaching styles, and grading systems you might think that it would not be fair to establish a singular standard for all applicants. I agree – no single standard should be used to judge all applicants to SIPA.

We evaluate each applicant as an individual and the process is very holistic. There is no Matrix. Each person has a different story, background, education, experience, and goals. Yes, we do look at GPA and test scores, but we put them in context and scores and grades are relative to the experience of an applicant.

Another example I could use to state why average GPA is not important is strength of schedule. One applicant may have a “soft” academic record in terms of courses chosen while another applicant chose very challenging courses and achieved a lower GPA than an applicant who chose an easier pathway. Should we punish the applicant that chose the more challenging path? The Admissions Committee does not believe so.

How about the GRE? Would it be fair to expect that an applicant that speaks English as a third language should score as well on the verbal portion of the GRE as someone who speaks English as a native language? Again I believe the answer is “no.”

I do understand the desire of applicants to have information regarding GPA and GRE. It is valid to seek an answer to the question, “How can I tell where I stand in terms of previous successful applicants to your program?”

I will offer up a few comments, none of which ever puts anyone totally at ease, but bear with me.

First, the younger someone is the more attention we pay to grades and test scores. Why? Well younger people have less work experience. The older someone is, the more we might give them a “break” in terms of grades and test scores. I would not expect that a 51 year old applicant would do as well on the GRE as someone that is 21 and just graduating. However the 51 year old has decades of experience that the 21 year old does not.

Second, overall GPA is not as important as grades in particular courses. Let’s say that an applicant majored in Economics and had a GPA of 3.1. Perhaps this applicant went “off the board” and took some challenging classes that were unrelated to their major. Maybe he or she got a “C” in a Sociology of Religion class. Intellectual curiosity is admirable and average grades in a few classes may not be looked upon as a negative, but rather as a positive for wanting to expand one’s intellectual development.

I hope you understand where I am going with all of this – there is no formula we use to admit a student. I know this still will not put you totally at ease so I will offer one final comment on test scores. On the GRE we look more at percentiles than we do number scores. Let’s say you scored a 680 on the quantitative portion of the GRE. This may have put you in the 71st percentile meaning that 29% of those that took the exam scored better than you, and 69% scored lower than you.

As a general guideline I can say the following regarding percentiles as viewed by the Admissions Committee at SIPA:

* The low 80s to the high 90s could be considered superior

* The low 70s to the low 80s could be considered excellent

* The low 60s to the low 70s could be considered good

* Scores in the 50s could be considered fair

However, again realize that this scale is relative and we have no cutoffs. An applicant may speak English as a third language and thus might have scored below the 50th percentile on the verbal portion of the GRE. At the same time, this applicant could have scored very well on the TOEFL exam and the Committee will take this into account.

One of the most common questions we receive centers around the question of what could be called “eligibility” for our program. I completely understand where applicants are coming from regarding such questions, but I do want to emphasize that the Admissions Committee at SIPA does not use any sort of formula to admit students. The process of evaluating applicants for admission is very holistic and we look at each part of the application.

Besides possessing a college degree, there are no specific criteria for admission. There are surely things applicants can do to strengthen their candidacy for our program but we do not require a specific GPA, certain test scores, a particular major, or a certain number of years of work experience. We get questions such as the following all of the time:

# I studied a major unrelated to what I wish to study at SIPA. Does this disqualify me from admission?

# I have not taken an economics class, does this mean I have no chance of being admitted?

# I have only worked for one year, does this mean I will not be admitted?

# I did not score well on the GRE/GMAT – does this jeopardize my candidacy?

# The work experience of high does not really relate to my proposed field of study, is this a problem?

# Is it worth my time to apply based on my background?

There certainly are generalizations that can be made about the majority of those who are admitted to SIPA. The average age of an admitted SIPA applicant is approximately 27. However we have had students as young as 21 join us. The majority of applicants that apply to SIPA have completed a microeconomics and macroeconomics class. Is it a requirement that all applicants have completed such a sequence prior to being admitted? No.

I do not want to sound like a politician who is dancing around the question and I understand the desire applicants have for “concrete” answers, but admission decisions really come down to an applicant’s story – a story the encompasses each and every part of the application.

In the past I worked for a school with a strong focus on arts, entertainment, music, and media. One faculty member left an impression upon me because he constantly stated something along the lines of the following:

“The success of a movie has everything to do with the story. You can have the best actors, the best special effects, the best soundtrack . . . but without a good story such resources just go to waste.”

Something similar can be said about applicants. Some applicants possess very relevant experience but are unable to bring everything together in their application. This may result in a scattered application with no real discernible theme or story.

On the other hand, there may be an applicant with seemingly unrelated experience and a major that was far afield from what they wish to study at SIPA, however s/he does a superb job of making sense of all of the parts by weaving all of the parts of their application together into a compelling story. This might be accomplished thr0ugh the choice of recommendation writers, compelling volunteer work, and a focused personal statement.

The personal statement really is the “glue” that holds the entire application together. We would love to interview each candidate for admission but are unable to do so. Thus your personal statement is where we get to know you. It is divided into three questions and in question #1 you really should focus on your passion, future goals, what you hope to gain from SIPA, and what you will contribute to SIPA. Questions 2 and 3 are wide open, but you should write wisely and try to include information that contributes to the story you are trying to convey in your application.

In sum, there are general characteristics that we look for in an applicant, but in the end a compelling story, mixed with evidence of academic and professional competence that will allow one to handle our curriculum, is really what helps an applicant to stand out.

One final note, some applicants have questions concerning our desire to see evidence of success with quantitative methods/economics at the undergraduate level. Why is this important? Well all SIPA students, regardless of degree or major, are required to take a full year of economics, a quantitative analysis class, and a financial management class. As you might imagine, those with little to no previous experience in these areas would likely struggle greatly with our curriculum. Also, second year fellowship consideration is tied to academic performance in the first year of study and a certain way to disqualify oneself from fellowship consideration is to do poorly in these classes, which are all first year requirements. Thus, we do like to see evidence in an application of success in classes that relate to quantitative methods.

Edited February 9, 2010 by cmnt29

[dave85]

gazelle and mei - I'm still waiting to hear back from UCSD IR/PS as well and I applied for the early deadline in December. It's disheartening to hear that some people already received their acceptance emails... makes me wonder where I stand =(

[steiner-5]

Hey all!

I'm a newcomer to this forum, and I've been browsing around the various threads to get some information on different schools, other candidates' backgrounds, etc, to gauge my standing as well as a Fall 2010 applicant in IR grad studies. As an applicant who doesn't have stellar GPA or GRE stats, I'd really love to hear some stories of others, who have applied to or are already attending grad school, who don't necessarily have the standard high GPA/GRE scores but still were competitive and able to get into some of the top programs. What kinds of work experiences did you have? Did you address your weak GPA in the application? What aspects of your application do you think made the case for you when being accepted to these programs? Any thoughts/encouragement/discouragement/constructive advice would be awesome, since I'm getting more and more paranoid as each day towards March/April draws nearer....

Thanks in advance!

I didn't have a stellar GPA either (3.2), but there were a few things I did that I think helped increase my chances.

First, I had to accept the fact that my GPA is my GPA. It will never change. The GRE, however, was something that, if I could ace it, would hopefully negate it. I spent at least 2 hours a day for 6 weeks studying and was rewarded for that effort. If you don't get in this go-round, it's worth another shot.

Second, I knew that in addition to the low GPA, I had no experience in the field to which I am applying. Nor did I have any academic recommendations since I graduated in 2003 and couldn't really remember my professors! What I did was simply enroll in a class at my alma mater in the master's program as an auditor. Even though I didn't get credit, I did all the work and was able to impress the professor enough to write a recommendation for me. Also, it is listed on my transcript and was something I could mention in my SOP to show my seriousness of purpose for pursuing the degree.

Lastly (and least helpfully), sometimes just being older helps. A lot of programs, especially MPA and MPP programs, are looking for more age diversity (ie. older students). Anecdotally, I've heard from academics in the policy world who have noticed more success during and after the program with those folks who have more work experience OF ANY KIND, not just policy work. I am 28 going on 29, and I think six years of progressive work experience simply is a point of distinction from the average applicant. As a practical matter also, I am very glad I waited. I was able to pay off all my undergraduate debt and will be able to finance at least half the program out of pocket because I made some money instead of going right back into school. This may not be as important to you, but graduating with as little debt as possible is a goal of mine.

Anyway, just my two cents. Good luck to you!

[mei]

Thanks for the great feedback everyone - all super helpful and definitely helping me feel a bit more optimistic. Good luck to everyone!

[JBrodsky]

Thanks for the great feedback everyone - all super helpful and definitely helping me feel a bit more optimistic. Good luck to everyone!

I have a very good friend who got into SAIS with a 3.0 in a non-technical undergraduate field from a non-elite state school. He had a couple years of good work experience and speaks two languages other than English, but I think he mostly got in because he had a very good, and very focused statement of purpose that stated clearly why he wanted the degree and how he would use it.