doctoral dissertation length variability

[andrew99]

Currently writing my PhD dissertation, and as a way to reduce anxiety every once in a while I will spend time on ProQuest looking at what other dissertations in either my field or using my methods (qualitative/historical narrative/social theory) look like, or things with little or no charts or quantitative data, so it's all just writing and analysis.

What's really shocking is how variable qualitative dissertations are in terms of length and effort. I have found dissertations from well-respected universities that are shorter and have less references than some papers I've written for classes (again, all narrative form), sometimes under 100 pages of double-spaced writing. On the other hand, I've found papers taking the same approach that are more than 800 pages and much denser in terms of citations.

It must be infuriating to people who spend years researching and writing 800 pages of meticulous, heavily-referenced text that someone who banged out a couple of short "essays" is getting the same kind of degree they are. Personally, I only find it mildly annoying, but mine is closer to the 100 pager than the 800 pager. Still, it does seem to depreciate the doctorate a bit.

 

[guest56436]

Page length of dissertation has little relevance to quality. 

What's more valuable, a dissertation where the core research results in two publications but is only approx. 100 pages or a dissertation that is 800 pages long and results in none?

[andrew99]

I think there is SOME relevance to quality, though obviously you can have terrible long dissertations, and really good short ones. 

While we focus on publications, the whole philosophy behind the dissertation is that it's supposed to add something substantial to the field. A dissertation that tries to do it in all of 80 pages, including reviewing the field's literature, is not going to be adding as much as it should I think.  

[TakeruK]

I just submitted my dissertation yesterday!

I would advise AGAINST looking at dissertations from different schools. The dissertation is *not uniform*, it's simply a department and University requirement. Just like every PhD program has different qualifying exam procedures, different candidacy exam procedures, different course requirements, and different instruction styles, each program will have different dissertation requirements too.

So, to me, the dissertation is just a formality, only another checkbox to get the piece of paper. My dissertation is my previous publications combined together, plus 10 pages of introductory material, 1 page that summarizes all my previous publications and 3-4 pages discussing a project still in the works. The total length is just under 200 pages.

I don't view my dissertation proper as a contribution to the field. The introduction is not useful at all to anyone who is already an expert in the field---the point of my introduction is for someone who is new to the field to understand the papers I've included as part of my thesis. Because no one ever reads a dissertation, my advisor's advice was to write it for the only audience that might ever read it: an senior undergrad or first year grad student wanting to work with me and needing a background to read the papers.

However, the contents of my dissertation are indeed a contribution to the field. The real part of the dissertation is the papers I wrote and published. But these have been published over the past few years and the dissertation is simply proving to my school and my department that I did create something of value for my field and that I am ready to graduate with a PhD. 

My philosophy is that the mark of a successful PhD is someone who the field recognizes as a useful contributing member. I have papers published that people cite, I have a postdoc position lined up, and I have demonstrated myself as a member of my scientific community. At this point, the dissertation and the defense itself is just a formality. Following my advisor's guidance, I spent about 1 week writing new material for the dissertation and about 1 week total work time getting the previously published works to fit the thesis format. In my opinion, programs that require students to spend months writing are doing a disservice to the students---in these months, I have produced even more science and results that won't go into my dissertation and will give me a running start to publishing in my postdoc.

Finally, I don't really think these practices depreciate the value of a PhD. To me, a PhD is a mark of qualification/certification, not ability. A PhD means that you are now recognized as a full member of your field, no longer "in training". It doesn't mean everyone with a PhD is equally able to do research or equally talented. I mean, sure, there is some minimum standard in order to get the qualification, just like any other certification program. But there are people who are graduating with me this year that have 2 or 3 times the papers I do and they are going to make a much bigger mark on the field than I ever will. One student from my cohort is shortlisted for a faculty job at an R1. Another student from my program in the past received a tenure-track faculty offer before they even crossed the stage for the ceremony. All of us have exactly the same degree though. I don't think this changes the value of the degree though---it's just a certification / minimum ability.

[fuzzylogician]

2 hours ago, andrew99 said:

It must be infuriating to people who spend years researching and writing 800 pages of meticulous, heavily-referenced text that someone who banged out a couple of short "essays" is getting the same kind of degree they are. Personally, I only find it mildly annoying, but mine is closer to the 100 pager than the 800 pager. Still, it does seem to depreciate the doctorate a bit.

Not so much. A PhD is a qualification I earned that allows me to pursue the career I am after. It doesn't have intrinsic merit and I don't really care how many others or who specifically has it. People are then judged on their work, not the initials next to their name, and that's what matters. Anyone who's gone through an entire degree just to be able to say that they're a Dr and is then upset by others who they deem unworthy deserve what they have coming. 

As for the length issue, I would imagine that there's some correlation between length and quality, with obvious exceptions (a dissertation can be brilliant but short, or incredibly boring and long). At the end of the day, though, it's a hurdle you have to jump through to get the degree, and therefore you need to care about what your department (specifically, your committee) will approve as sufficient. Beyond that, depending on field, either you'll take the dissertation and turn it into a book, in which case if it sucks you'll never get a contract; or you publish chapters from it, in which case again if it's not good you'll just need to basically rewrite the entire thing.* Or you don't do anything with it, in which case it did nothing more than meet a minimum standard, and that's okay, but you'll need to ask yourself if that's what you're aiming for, or if you want to aim higher. Just like with everything else in academia -- and life -- it's not always wise to compare yourself to others, and if you choose to do so, you should be careful about the contents of the comparison. 

* Or you're in a field where your dissertation is a collection of already-published work, in which case obviously what matters is the content of those papers. 

[andrew99]

If you think of it just as a career qualification, I think that's not giving it the effort it deserves.  I assume if someone turned in a 5-page history dissertation you would consider it a cop-out, right?  It's not going to remain a career qualifier if anybody can get it by turning in what is essentially a term paper.

[fuzzylogician]

1 minute ago, andrew99 said:

I assume if someone turned in a 5-page history dissertation you would consider it a cop-out, right?  It's not going to remain a career qualifier if anybody can get it by turning in what is essentially a term paper.

First off, that's what you have a committee for. Second, if a committee let that pass, I imagine the student would never get a job in the field because who'd hire someone who produces that kind of work? Third, if this became a practice at said school, they wouldn't be ranked all that high, now would they? It'd be more like one of those fictitious online universities that grant degrees to anyone who pays enough. I don't think that does anything to detract from my hard-earned degree, everyone knows exactly how seriously to take it. 

[MHarry]

Interesting post...

I think that putting too much time and effort into the actual Thesis document is a complete waste of time. Very few people will read your dissertation. I haven't even looked at my Master's thesis since its completion two years ago, however, the two published manuscripts that were in my dissertation are well cited. 

I had the pleasure to have lunch with one of the key researchers that discovered the mechanism of action of Dopamine...this guy is top notch, has several hundred published manuscripts and has been the CEO of a couple of multi-million dollar companies. He actually quit research because he thought it was too easy and wanted another challenge. His advice on my PhD degree was to spend as little time as possible on my Thesis document. His view was it was a complete waste of time and it is just a "check box" in order to complete my degree. Although you don't want to hand in something atrocious, I 100% agree with him. I expect my Thesis will be ~200-300 pages long, but I don't want to spend more than 6-8 weeks to write up my Thesis.

[guest56436]

21 minutes ago, MHarry said:

Interesting post...

I think that putting too much time and effort into the actual Thesis document is a complete waste of time. Very few people will read your dissertation. I haven't even looked at my Master's thesis since its completion two years ago, however, the two published manuscripts that were in my dissertation are well cited. 

I had the pleasure to have lunch with one of the key researchers that discovered the mechanism of action of Dopamine...this guy is top notch, has several hundred published manuscripts and has been the CEO of a couple of multi-million dollar companies. He actually quit research because he thought it was too easy and wanted another challenge. His advice on my PhD degree was to spend as little time as possible on my Thesis document. His view was it was a complete waste of time and it is just a "check box" in order to complete my degree. Although you don't want to hand in something atrocious, I 100% agree with him. I expect my Thesis will be ~200-300 pages long, but I don't want to spend more than 6-8 weeks to write up my Thesis.

It's entirely field dependent. In my sub-field, books go a long way. Generally, the better and more comprehensive your dissertation is, the closer it is to being publishable as a book. 

Furthermore, sometimes your dissertation is what hiring committees look at (although, much more likely it is your job market paper and/or past publications). In my field there are also dissertation awards that come with quite a bit of prestige and opportunities. Lastly, if you put together a sub-par dissertation your letter writers are less likely to back you as much as if it was excellent.

So no, I don't think the dissertation is just a hoop to pass through.

[Lanie]

51 minutes ago, MHarry said:

Interesting post...

I think that putting too much time and effort into the actual Thesis document is a complete waste of time. Very few people will read your dissertation. I haven't even looked at my Master's thesis since its completion two years ago, however, the two published manuscripts that were in my dissertation are well cited. 

I had the pleasure to have lunch with one of the key researchers that discovered the mechanism of action of Dopamine...this guy is top notch, has several hundred published manuscripts and has been the CEO of a couple of multi-million dollar companies. He actually quit research because he thought it was too easy and wanted another challenge. His advice on my PhD degree was to spend as little time as possible on my Thesis document. His view was it was a complete waste of time and it is just a "check box" in order to complete my degree. Although you don't want to hand in something atrocious, I 100% agree with him. I expect my Thesis will be ~200-300 pages long, but I don't want to spend more than 6-8 weeks to write up my Thesis.

I think this is an important point. I think people drag out the dissertation forever, thinking it needs to be more important than it is. It is just one part of your PhD. Yes it should be good quality but I don't think page length says anything about quality whatsoever. Best advice to me was something similar, get your PhD and go do something far more important with your life. That has really helped me put things in perspective.

Also I think PhD programs vary as much as dissertations and I don't think you can speak to quality without knowing more about each program.

[cowgirlsdontcry]

I finished my thesis this semester. One committee member made the remark that I had at least two and maybe three publishable papers in the 85 pages and that I should focus on starting to get something published from it, as I begin a Ph.D. program in literature. Just add that to all of the other things I have to do this summer, including moving. Most of the English dissertations I have looked at are in the 300 +/- page range. I know nothing about other disciplines.

[TakeruK]

27 minutes ago, andrew99 said:

If you think of it just as a career qualification, I think that's not giving it the effort it deserves.  I assume if someone turned in a 5-page history dissertation you would consider it a cop-out, right?  It's not going to remain a career qualifier if anybody can get it by turning in what is essentially a term paper.

I meant that the entire degree progress is a career qualification, not just the dissertation itself. I can't speak for all fields, but if you spend 5 years in a planetary science program and only produce 5 pages of material to put into a dissertation, I can't see how that would be enough to get the qualification. 

I also don't understand what you meant by requiring "effort" to produce a dissertation. I would say that the time spent writing a paper is also a lot of effort! I spent at least 100 hours writing each one of my published papers (just on the writing part, not counting the time it took to generate the analysis that goes into the paper. Each paper took up about 50-60 pages in the thesis format, yielding a ratio of ~2 hours per page of written text. This doesn't count the time it took to get everything in the right format (another 40 hours or so, or 0.2 hours per page). It took me about 40 hours of work to write those 15 ish pages of introductory and summary materials, so that's about the same ratio too. So I would really say that it's not like a "staple papers together" thesis is "easier" but it meant that the entire work of writing the text in my dissertation was spread over 4 years, instead of all in the last few months. Some people in my program do end up spending 2-3 months in their final year just writing because they did not publish any (or enough) papers and needed to write whole chapters on their work in progress.

Ultimately, what I mean when I say it's just a "checkbox" is that there is nothing inherent in the dissertation writing process that is necessary to produce a good PhD. A dissertation is meant to show to your committee that you have done the work to earn your PhD. If you show this by writing several papers accepted into peer-reviewed journals (i.e. producing work like a fully trained researcher) then that would meet the qualification. That is, I don't see how treating the dissertation as a checkbox/qualification means that you can do less work and still get a PhD. 

[TakeruK]

I started writing the above post, left for a few hours, and then saw that there were other replies in between. I feel like perhaps some additional clarification due to field differences could be useful. 

In my program, the route that 95% of students wanting to go on in academia take is something like:

1. Work hard and publish papers
2. You and your advisor feel like you are ready to move on
3. Apply for jobs (usually in Oct-Jan)
4. Get an offer (usually in Jan-Mar). If you don't get an offer, most students will stay another year, so go back to Step 1!
5. Check in with advisor/committee to see if you are ready to write; usually 3+ publications and job offer is a green light.
6. Write dissertation (April)
7. Defend (May)
8. Graduate! (June)
9. Either take the summer off, start postdoc early, or continue work at PhD school as a temporary postdoc during the summer (really depends on how much you need the summer income)
10. Start postdoc in the fall.

Most people do not even start thinking about putting together a dissertation until they have a job offer in hand, and very few committees will refuse to let a student defend if they already have a post-PhD academic job offer. This is why it really feels like a final hoop to step through. Unlike other fields, we always publish first, and then put into dissertation, rather than the other way around. I know other fields will also defend first and then apply to jobs, so I will say that in those cases, it does also make more sense for a dissertation to be more than a "hoop" since the dissertation itself might be part of your application package.

[rising_star]

As has already been said, length is going to vary a lot by discipline. My guess, @andrew99 is that you were looking at dissertations from a number of different disciplines, even though the same methods were used. (I can think of qualitative methods and social theory being found in dissertations in education, political science, sociology, anthropology, and a number of area and interdisciplinary studies fields.) Some of the differences you'll encounter in terms of length are field-specific or even advisor specific. My PhD advisor had a preference for dissertations in the 200 page range. In order to fit this, there's a bunch of research I did (and that my committee knew about) which didn't make it into the dissertation. So, it's not entirely fair to judge the "quality" of the work in my PhD based solely on that document since there's other work which never made it into that.

I think there's also a HUGE difference between book and non-book fields. In many disciplines (English, political science, and history all come to mind), at least one published book with an academic press is basically a requirement to get tenure. In some cases, there are limits on how much of that material can be published previously then reprinted in the book. There are cases where the dissertation is seen as a publication. In that case, it makes a lot of sense not to publish everything in the dissertation and save material for the book. The result may be a shorter dissertation because, again, the committee knows that other work has been done and is forthcoming (they may have even reviewed it in draft form already).

Last but not least, I just want to reiterate the point that length is not an indicator of quality. I think of it as similar to academic works. I've read some amazing original academic books that are only about 150 pages and some boring ones with minimal contributions that are 300 pages. Dissertations are similar. Perhaps if you really want to look for a correlation between length and quality, you'll do a study using a specific methodology to evaluate each dissertation. That could be interesting for the rest of us to look at, though I doubt it'll change how any PhD advisor or committee handles their students.

[Eigen]

My advisor told me, as I was writing up: "Remember, a short dissertation is a good dissertation. Lots of the long ones are just people trying to pad bad science with lots of extra words."

Definitely going to be field specific, but I can't really say length is much of a criteria in my field. Some of the most groundbreaking dissertations have been exceptionally short- they did great, novel science that didn't take long to discuss. 

Mine was on the shorter side of usual for my department, and all of my committee members said it was very strong, with one requesting a copy to use as an example for future students. Including appendices, mine was about 140 pages. 

Good writing, good ideas, and good execution are what make a good dissertation, not the length. 

[andrew99]

"As has already been said, length is going to vary a lot by discipline. My guess, @andrew99 is that you were looking at dissertations from a number of different disciplines, even though the same methods were used."

I was really trying to be very specific, because it would be completely unfair to judge every field under the same rubric. That's why I qualified it by referring to narrative works based on qualitative research. I do think, despite apparently universal disagreement above, that there should be a certain minimum level for a qualitative dissertation (outside some esoteric philosophy of logic kind of thing), and I don't think 70 pages should cut it. 

"Last but not least, I just want to reiterate the point that length is not an indicator of quality. I think of it as similar to academic works. I've read some amazing original academic books that are only about 150 pages and some boring ones with minimal contributions that are 300 pages. Dissertations are similar. Perhaps if you really want to look for a correlation between length and quality, you'll do a study using a specific methodology to evaluate each dissertation."

I think once you get over a certain page length then yes, quality bears little resemblance to length. My argument is that as a gatekeeping device, even as a career qualification device, the dissertation is supposed to take a fair amount of effort. And if you're doing, say, a paper on the history of World War 2 in western Africa (to completely make up a random topic) and turn in something the length of a long-form magazine article, then you have not made the effort that should be required.

Some of the arguments above are "well, that's the Committee's job" which really doesn't conflict with anything I've said, unless people are arguing that Committee members are somehow above criticism. 

I mean, my advisor is very much in the "the best dissertation is a done dissertation," and wants his students out, but even he would not let me turn in a 70-page dissertation unless it was quantitatively dense.

Anyway maybe I'm biased because I am a lot older than most other PhD students, but I've found over the years (and it took a long time to do it!) that doing things well rather than just doing the minimum to get by really does have impacts beyond whatever individual thing you're working on. 

[andrew99]

"I finished my thesis this semester. One committee member made the remark that I had at least two and maybe three publishable papers in the 85 pages and that I should focus on starting to get something published from it, as I begin a Ph.D. program in literature. Just add that to all of the other things I have to do this summer, including moving. Most of the English dissertations I have looked at are in the 300 +/- page range. I know nothing about other disciplines."

And, of course, 85 pages for a master's thesis is perfectly respectable, and getting 3 papers out of it would be a testament for the clarity and brevity of your writing.  Also not my field so I probably shouldn't say anything, but I wouldn't stress over getting those papers finished right now.  Sounds like they are something you can work on over the next year.

[Eigen]

25 minutes ago, andrew99 said:

Some of the arguments above are "well, that's the Committee's job" which really doesn't conflict with anything I've said, unless people are arguing that Committee members are somehow above criticism. 

It's more that you seem to be making the argument that, solely on page length, you're in a better place to judge what is or is not a legitimate contribution to the field than a panel of experts in the field. 

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that someone else getting passed with a crappy dissertation has no effect on you at all. 

This comes back around to you making too big of a deal out of the dissertation as the keystone accomplishment that grants you a PhD. A PhD is granted to someone when their committee things they have made a significant contribution to the field. The dissertation is part of that, as is the defense, and the rest of the individuals body of work. You're putting too much importance on one thing (the dissertation) and then reducing it past that to one significant factor (the length).

[rising_star]

51 minutes ago, andrew99 said:

"As has already been said, length is going to vary a lot by discipline. My guess, @andrew99 is that you were looking at dissertations from a number of different disciplines, even though the same methods were used."

I was really trying to be very specific, because it would be completely unfair to judge every field under the same rubric. That's why I qualified it by referring to narrative works based on qualitative research. I do think, despite apparently universal disagreement above, that there should be a certain minimum level for a qualitative dissertation (outside some esoteric philosophy of logic kind of thing), and I don't think 70 pages should cut it. 

Except that "narrative works based on qualitative research" still applies to a number of disciplines, including all of those I listed in my previous response.

At the end of the day, it's not your place, as a PhD student, to decide what does and does not qualify as an acceptable dissertation. You are not yet considered an expert in the discipline. No one has given you the proverbial keys to the car yet. Perhaps as you spend more time on committees and reading dissertations, you'll get a better sense of how the work should be evaluated. But, as I've said before length doesn't equal quality nor does it necessarily equate to the depth of the work that went into it.

[MHarry]

On 5/6/2017 at 6:21 PM, Comparativist said:

It's entirely field dependent. In my sub-field, books go a long way. Generally, the better and more comprehensive your dissertation is, the closer it is to being publishable as a book. 

Furthermore, sometimes your dissertation is what hiring committees look at (although, much more likely it is your job market paper and/or past publications). In my field there are also dissertation awards that come with quite a bit of prestige and opportunities. Lastly, if you put together a sub-par dissertation your letter writers are less likely to back you as much as if it was excellent.

So no, I don't think the dissertation is just a hoop to pass through.

 

Good point. I am unaware of the impact of the dissertation in other fields, but in applied and health sciences (human and animal physiology, medicine etc.) I doubt that hiring university hiring committees are even going to read the title of your thesis, rather, they will look at your list of publications. If this field, if your publications are limited to the work that is in your thesis, the chances of you getting a job in academia are slim to none...and slim just left the building. 

[fuzzylogician]

4 hours ago, MHarry said:

Good point. I am unaware of the impact of the dissertation in other fields, but in applied and health sciences (human and animal physiology, medicine etc.) I doubt that hiring university hiring committees are even going to read the title of your thesis, rather, they will look at your list of publications. If this field, if your publications are limited to the work that is in your thesis, the chances of you getting a job in academia are slim to none...and slim just left the building. 

In my field, dissertations are definitely read and cited. I was asked about things in my dissertation by hiring committees, even though I never submitted it with my application (but it's on my website, of course, and I submitted published work, some of which stemmed from my dissertation). Sweeping cross-field generalizations are always dangerous. That said, sweeping quality/length generalizations are obviously also going to fail. There's everything out there, as others have pointed out. Taking length to imply quality is wrong, as is worrying about how your degree might somehow be affected by someone else doing what you deem to be sub-par work. It's just such a non-issue.