History Admissions 2008

[Cornell07]

I second the thoughts on being a lawyer. Though I am making more off the bat as a paralegal than almost all of my other humanties friends, I could never consider this a vocation. True, I've met lawyers content with their money and some trial lawyers who do enjoy their jobs, but the majority, making gobs of money work on mindless contract law. Many enjoy the money; few enjoy the work.

If I don't get into a back-up MA program next month, I'm doing everything I can to get the funk out of this damnable profession and into something more worthwhile and stimulating like doing foreign policy analysis for the state dept or think tanks.

[samantha20]

For those interested: I emailed the admissions office, and they told me that the doctoral program in history at Columbia received between 500 and 600 applications and accepted around 20 to 25 students for the 2008-09 academic year.

[missycari]

Wow, that's crazy. I wonder, Samantha, did they say they accepted 20-25 students, or that that was their expected yield? It's ridiculously competitive either way, but I've noticed that a number of programs seem to like to put it that way - making the already fierce competition seem fiercer. I think if 20-25 was their expected yeild, they probably accepted 40-50, but that's a guess.

[Cornell07]

For those interested: I emailed the admissions office, and they told me that the doctoral program in history at Columbia received between 500 and 600 applications and accepted around 20 to 25 students for the 2008-09 academic year.

Holy crap.

[caitroselin]

Chicago Helpful -

I think you need to take a moment and breathe. Your life is not over. Your life is not going to be monotonous and dull just because the University of Chicago and Northwestern could not offer you a place in their PhD program. There are plenty of other ways to cultivate your interests and contribute for the scholarly world.

Here are just a couple of ideas that have appealed to me at certain points in my life.

1 - Write pieces for a weekly newspaper in your free time. Build your portfolio and then become a staff writer for a newspaper. I can't remember who said that journalists were writing a first draft of history but it seems rather appropriate here.

2 - Work as a librarian (university or public). There are lots of positions as an archivist that will allow you to continue working with historical sources.

3 - Work at a Museum. There is nothing more spectacularly geeky than leading tours in a museum and explaining why this piece of otherwise unidentiable pottery is actually one of the most important finds of the last decade.

4 - Own your own used bookstore.

Heck, become an elementary school teacher. My kids think I am the coolest thing since Pokemon. Anything I say is cool is automatically cool. You'll be surprised how many students you can convince that they should really be interested in the American Revolution. I have students asking how they can find more children's books about it and whether Liberty's Kids (a cartoon that details the road to the revolution) is available for purchase. If you told them to care about ancient Greek philosophy, they would just to try to please you.

Hi all, this is my first post! I just wanted to pipe in as the talk has turned to non-academic history work. I'm currently waiting like everyone else for admission results from programs with Public History/Museum Studies components, as I'm interested in exhibit development work.

I agree whole-heartedly with Amanda: museum/library work and education is a great field to go into. I'd guess that everyone on this board had been inspired by something to go into history, (and wait out the tortuous hell that is the graduate admissions process). For me at least, that happened when I was young on one of my many class field trips before I even knew the world of lectures and journal articles existed.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that most likely a museum job that would keep you fulfilled and engaged is going to require a graduate degree and previous experience, and there will be tons of other applicants. Not to be a downer, but I wouldn't want you thinking you can just snap up an interesting museum/library job in a month's time. The few interviews I've had since finishing undergrad, all the other applicants had MA's. Needless to say, I didn't get the jobs. There are tons of volunteer opportunities, but that doesn't put the take-out pad thai on the table. (Or whatever you may prefer to eat.) But again, it's always something to consider as a different path than the PhD track.

Continued good wishes to everyone. May you not get caught cursing at your empty apartment mailbox by your 70 year-old neighbor.

[Minnesotan]

The public history/museum discussion is relevant and interesting enough that I think we should give it its own thread (which I intend to do in just a moment).

BTW, if you Cornell folks want, you can make your own thread for that discussion, too (just like the other colleges in the history forum).

[fizz]

I did an ass-ton* of research this past summer on archives careers and programs, including visiting a couple of schools and even going so far as to join the Society of American Archivists and attend their annual conference. Although I'm sure everyone here is capable of the same work, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are Actual Archivists hanging around here, I'd be happy to share my findings with anyone who's thinking of archives. (One caveat: I'm in the midst of finals and it might be Thursday before I can get back to you.) PM me if you're interested.

* Technical term.

[TMP]

For those interested: I emailed the admissions office, and they told me that the doctoral program in history at Columbia received between 500 and 600 applications and accepted around 20 to 25 students for the 2008-09 academic year.

I second the "Holy Crap." Sheesh. And Michigan had only 300-400 applications? Must be the Ivy prestige

Oh maybe that's what is taking NYU so long... and i should be happy that I applied to a joint-degree program!

[el217]

Just got notification in the mail that I was accepted to UToronto!!! Does anyone know how Toronto compares to US schools in terms of reputation? And especially to Stanford, Brown, and Rutgers? :mrgreen:

There's no mention of a visit (silly Canadians, doing things differently)... I was hoping I'd get to meet the legendary Natalie Zemon Davis, even if I decide not to go there. :cry:

Now that I've officially heard from all my schools, I'm not so paranoid, so I can mention that I go to UMich for undergrad--I know a lot of people here are looking at our department, so let me know if you have any questions!

[samantha20]

Congratulations! Did you apply for the MA or PhD program in history?

University of Toronto is a fantastic school.

[el217]

Congratulations! Did you apply for the MA or PhD program in history?

University of Toronto is a fantastic school.

Thanks! It's for a direct-entry (no MA) PhD. I know it's fantastic, but I'm wondering *how* fantastic It's hard to gauge that when it's not listed with USNews, phds.org, or any of the others.

[samantha20]

Well, I suppose it also depends on what field you are in. Have you asked your professors? Most definitely you will have an edge on the job market in Canada with a degree from Toronto, but I am not sure how it translates over here.

[el217]

Yeah... I'm not sure I'd want to stay in Canada forever, so I definitely need a degree with leverage in the States, too. I will definitely have to talk to my profs. I thought I knew which way I was leaning, and now suddenly I feel like I'm back to square one Thanks for your input!

[samantha20]

I am trying my best to avoid schoolwork, and this is what I found:

The history department lists the recent successful placements on its website. It looks like a number of them have found tenture-track positions in the US. Hope this helps!

[el217]

Yeah, I saw that, thanks! Even though it hasn't been updated in 3 years, it's still reassuring.

I know that I'm incredibly lucky to be presented with such a tough decision, but I sort of wish I didn't have to make it--I'm SO indecisive!

[TMP]

Just got notification in the mail that I was accepted to UToronto!!! Does anyone know how Toronto compares to US schools in terms of reputation? And especially to Stanford, Brown, and Rutgers? :mrgreen:

There's no mention of a visit (silly Canadians, doing things differently)... I was hoping I'd get to meet the legendary Natalie Zemon Davis, even if I decide not to go there. :cry:

Now that I've officially heard from all my schools, I'm not so paranoid, so I can mention that I go to UMich for undergrad--I know a lot of people here are looking at our department, so let me know if you have any questions!

Hmm BA at Smith College (where I went in my first year) and a PhD from Michigan? Not too shoddy for me. Heck you're already at UMich- call her up and say you're from there! Never fails. What are you interested in her for- the accusations against her and her husband in the 1950s for Communist activities or just her work? j/k

Good luck with your decisions!

[Minnesotan]

Just got notification in the mail that I was accepted to UToronto!!! Does anyone know how Toronto compares to US schools in terms of reputation? And especially to Stanford, Brown, and Rutgers?

Toronto is respected worldwide. It's definitely the top school in Canada, as far as reputation goes (no matter what the people at UBC and McGill have to say -- who's ever heard of McGill?!). I would not put it on par with the top 5-10 American programs, though, unless you are going to work with one of their superstars (they have a few, in various fields).

Really, I would be thinking more about how your potential advisors compare at Toronto, Stanford, and Brown than the reputations of the schools. They're all solid programs.

On a side note, UofT is smack dab in the middle of the city, which is an excellent, excellent location. The town is a lot of fun, and the transit is above average (good subway, but it shuts down at 1:30am, and relatively clean buses). It's expensive, but probably no more than Stanford. Just be warned that there's no caffeine in the Mountain Dew here; had I known that, I would have never left home. =)

[el217]

Thanks, that really helps! I'm scared when you say it's as expensive as Stanford, because I'd get $24,000 from Stanford and only $13,500CAD from Toronto. Is that enough to live on?

No caffeine in Mountain Dew? That's a tragedy if I've ever heard one!

Okay, I will stop monopolizing the thread with my questions now... good luck to everyone still waiting or trying to make a decision!

[confused]

I recently got notification I have been accepted to the NYU history PhD, which I was v relieved to hear! (especially as they took a long time in coming through with their decisions and I know there are people still waiting to hear, hopefully all decisions will be out soon!) But now I'm not sure what to do, as I was also waitlisted at Michigan which was my top choice. The people at Mich have been lovely, writing to me saying they really hope they can get me in etc, but also letting me know I likely won't hear anything till v close to April 15. I know Michigan is a higher ranked program and for my field, it has more faculty members I could work with. There are also some good people for me at NYU but 2-3 who work in my area, as opposed to 5-6 at Michigan.

So while I'm pleased to have got a firm offer from one school (NYU) I'm not sure if I should wait it out for news from Mich with the intention of going there if (and its a big if) I get an offer. What would people recommend to do, and along those lines, what would people say re their impressions of the NYU program?

[samantha20]

One of my friends is having this exact same problem albeit with different schools.

If you do accept the offer from NYU and then hear back from Michigan that you are in after the April 15 deadline, I believe you can request to have your acceptance withdrawn from NYU. I think you will need a written statement releasing you from the contract with NYU.

Hope everything works out, and congratulations on the acceptance to NYU!

[Minnesotan]

Thanks, that really helps! I'm scared when you say it's as expensive as Stanford, because I'd get $24,000 from Stanford and only $13,500CAD from Toronto. Is that enough to live on?

Ermm... not if you like to drink the occasional beer.

Honestly, I don't know. You would absolutely need to live with at least one roommate. Toronto is an expensive city, and Canadians tax everything heavily. The one nice thing is that most Canadian grad students are unionized, so you get unexpected money now and then from bursaries for which you long ago forgot you had applied, and your benefits (health, dental, vision) are exceptional. TAs here are still slave labor, but we're very pampered slaves, relatively speaking.

Anyway, I would take a look at one or two of those costs of living websites before making my decision. If you're getting 13,500 from Toronto, with no tuition waiver, and no guaranteed summer ta/ra, then I doubt that stacks up well against 24,000 at Stanford.

[TMP]

I recently got notification I have been accepted to the NYU history PhD, which I was v relieved to hear! (especially as they took a long time in coming through with their decisions and I know there are people still waiting to hear, hopefully all decisions will be out soon!) But now I'm not sure what to do, as I was also waitlisted at Michigan which was my top choice. The people at Mich have been lovely, writing to me saying they really hope they can get me in etc, but also letting me know I likely won't hear anything till v close to April 15. I know Michigan is a higher ranked program and for my field, it has more faculty members I could work with. There are also some good people for me at NYU but 2-3 who work in my area, as opposed to 5-6 at Michigan.

So while I'm pleased to have got a firm offer from one school (NYU) I'm not sure if I should wait it out for news from Mich with the intention of going there if (and its a big if) I get an offer. What would people recommend to do, and along those lines, what would people say re their impressions of the NYU program?

Oh great. How should I spend my weekend? Trying to get through another 30 pages of my thesis or checking my inbox every 30 minutes? But my impression that NYU program is solid but probably not so as Michigan. What I really like about MIch's program is the fou or-five required fields of knowledge and one of them has to be outside of your field. So it would be an opportunity for me to study Soviet history whereas at NYU, I'd be stuck with US and Jewish history. Obviously, it means having a wider net of professors that you want to work with. So you'd better hope that you get in Mich and then free up a spot for the rest of us! :mrgreen: But for ME, if I had gotten in both programs, I'd turn down Michigan because of the joint-program option and the other department is the top in the country so it'd bouy my degree quite a bit. NYU is solid but not the very top program and I think that you'd really have to work to be competitive as those in the top program. So that's why I have this joint-degree option.

Not expecting anything especially that the decision won't be coming from History department per say. But the big question is.. how long will it take for the History department to relay its message to the other department?!

[abc]

I recently got notification I have been accepted to the NYU history PhD, which I was v relieved to hear! (especially as they took a long time in coming through with their decisions and I know there are people still waiting to hear, hopefully all decisions will be out soon!) But now I'm not sure what to do, as I was also waitlisted at Michigan which was my top choice. The people at Mich have been lovely, writing to me saying they really hope they can get me in etc, but also letting me know I likely won't hear anything till v close to April 15. I know Michigan is a higher ranked program and for my field, it has more faculty members I could work with. There are also some good people for me at NYU but 2-3 who work in my area, as opposed to 5-6 at Michigan.

So while I'm pleased to have got a firm offer from one school (NYU) I'm not sure if I should wait it out for news from Mich with the intention of going there if (and its a big if) I get an offer. What would people recommend to do, and along those lines, what would people say re their impressions of the NYU program?

What field are you in? I think the difference in rankings are a little spurious at the top. I'm not sure there is a significant prestige difference between 8 or so spots in the top 20. The real question is which program is better for you? The number of faculty could be an issue but so could access to resources and archives.

One of the potential advantages to NYU (again, depends on your field) is access to archives. If your sources are in the same city as the one in which you live, that can be a big bonus. IF you're working on Gerald Ford or the American auto industry, then Ann Arbor may offer better access to the primary sources you'll need; if you're working on other things, New York (and the easy access to most east coast cities) may be more helpful along the way. I think one of the advantages to many east coast institutions is easy/easier access to archives for many topics (including but definitely not limited to the Library of Congress/National Archives). This, of course, assumes you're interested in American history.

The other question is: how much uncertainty are you willing to live with? You could commit to NYU and know where you're going (and start getting to know people, figure out where you'll live, etc), you could wait until April 15th and hopefully get to make a decision or you could wait until April 15th and end up in the same place you are now (and just postpone the getting to a know a place stuff for a month). This isn't to sound callous, just to note that some people would prefer waiting and other people would prefer not to stay in limbo. It kind of depends on who you and what you like better.

Michigan may know more by early April (if people commit or decline a few weeks after their visit weekend) or they may not know until April 15. My understanding is that they didn't take anyone off the waitlist last year, but in years prior they have. So it's hard to say what will happen this year and when they may know. But they may have a sense by early April so you could call them, tell them you have an offer from NYU and would like to know your chances at Michigan before deciding/committing. Good luck!

[confused]

What field are you in? I think the difference in rankings are a little spurious at the top. I'm not sure there is a significant prestige difference between 8 or so spots in the top 20. The real question is which program is better for you? The number of faculty could be an issue but so could access to resources and archives.

One of the potential advantages to NYU (again, depends on your field) is access to archives. If your sources are in the same city as the one in which you live, that can be a big bonus. IF you're working on Gerald Ford or the American auto industry, then Ann Arbor may offer better access to the primary sources you'll need; if you're working on other things, New York (and the easy access to most east coast cities) may be more helpful along the way. I think one of the advantages to many east coast institutions is easy/easier access to archives for many topics (including but definitely not limited to the Library of Congress/National Archives). This, of course, assumes you're interested in American history.

The other question is: how much uncertainty are you willing to live with? You could commit to NYU and know where you're going (and start getting to know people, figure out where you'll live, etc), you could wait until April 15th and hopefully get to make a decision or you could wait until April 15th and end up in the same place you are now (and just postpone the getting to a know a place stuff for a month). This isn't to sound callous, just to note that some people would prefer waiting and other people would prefer not to stay in limbo. It kind of depends on who you and what you like better.

Thanks ABC! It is true what you say about the advantages archive and resource wise of studying in New York. Im not an American historian - Modern European - but nonetheless having access to other East Coast Universities and archives would be great.

I'm somewhat relieved about what you say about the spurious nature of rankings - I usually don't pay them much attention but it has been so emphasised here and elsewhere how difficult the job market is in the humanities and how important the institution you attend is that I have become worried that choosing NYU over a possible place @ Mich would seriously affect any (possible and far in the future) job prospects! Incidentally, does anyone know where I could get info on NYU's placement history? I can't find it on their website.

Its hard because at both places my main advisor would be an excellent historian. Its just analysing every thing else around that that will make the decision for me.

[abc]

Ask. I have. If you are direct about it your advisor will get a percentage for you in most cases. Tell them that you want a number not just examples of x and y graduates placed in tenure positions at x and y Top 10 programs. If a school is serious about you and they are serious about placing their graduates then they will be proud of their numbers or at least honest about them. You will be surprised- lower ranked programs sometimes have far better placement rates than top programs who graduate more PhDs. Good luck with your choice!

Definitely ask. Your advisor should be able to give you that info or direct you to someone (the grad program director etc) who can. Make sure to ask what how your advisor's students have done as well as what the placement stats for the program as a whole is. The reference your advisor gives is really important and it's key to know how his/her students have done. I know one historian at NYU (not European though) who is well known for introducing her students to people and making sure they get jobs. Not all advisors are as aggressive or proactive.