Feeling lost

[JungianShadow]

Hey there Grad Cafe, 

I'm 26 and I graduated college two years ago with a bachelor's in science majoring in psychology and minoring in neuroscience with a 3.9 GPA.  I volunteered at two labs in IO psych and neuroscience, because of the lack of openings for volunteers at my college for one year and then I  took my GRE in hopes of applying to a PhD in clinical psychology and got a verb of 159 and a Quant of 147. During my last year I was able to have my name in three separate poster projects that were presented at the APA national convention and also personally presented two other posters in Long Beach,  California for the society of personality and social psychology.   That year I applied to around 8 lower tier PhD programs, but did not get accepted to any of them. Earlier this year I religiously applied to different research positions around the nation to boost my resume, but only landed two interviews and was not accepted into either. I've been considering going for a masters in counseling as a stepping stone, but fear the debt won't be worth it and fear even more that I will again not get in after putting time and money into the application process. 

Any advice would be more than welcome and greatly appreciated. Where should I go from here? 

[JungianShadow]

Also for the last two years I've been working as a behavioral specialist. Would that be any boost to a Quant stricken application? 

[Oilersfan11]

I'm absolutely baffled as to how you could have had such little luck with a 3.9, lab work, and poster presentations? I suppose your Quant score is somewhat low...but still? Have you considered applying to school that do not require the GRE as a way of circumventing this issue?

[JungianShadow]

I could look into some programs that don't use the GRE, but generally everywhere I've looked has required the GRE as a point of reference. Even the master degree programs I am looking at require the GRE. Are there any schools that you know of that don't require this?

[_kita]

Try not to be discouraged. Clinical psychology is one of the most difficult field to get into because of just the sheer number of applicants. With all of this experience, I'm curious, what are your research goals? Do you have a direct focus area? Also, do you have a lot of experience with the statistical analysis portion?

If you want an academic/science career, I DO NOT suggest a counseling masters. Counseling programs do not tend to focus enough on the empiricism. They are professional degrees lining you up to be a licensed counselor. If your goal is to be a licensed counselor, I suggest going for the counseling masters only and not worrying about the clinical doctoral. They're really two different directions in the field.

If you want an academic/science career, and you're looking at masters programs, then a masters in psychology, public health (focused in mental health or behavioral health), etc., would better line you up or empiricism and connect to research labs. For instance, Johns Hopkins Masters in Health Science (Mental Health) is a 9 month program that encompasses a lot of epidemiology and stats. A lot of students work in research labs across their medical and science campuses. That is the type of program you want. One that will enhance the science-skills, not one that enhances therapeutic skills.

[cowgirlsdontcry]

Don't psych programs want a higher verbal score? I think I've read that social science programs are like humanities in that regard. A verbal of 159 is in the 83 percentile. That is not a poor score, but perhaps the programs you were applying to had applicants with higher scores on average than yours. Maybe you need to retake the GRE. 

[_kita]

1 hour ago, cowgirlsdontcry said:

Don't psych programs want a higher verbal score? I think I've read that social science programs are like humanities in that regard. A verbal of 159 is in the 83 percentile. That is not a poor score, but perhaps the programs you were applying to had applicants with higher scores on average than yours. Maybe you need to retake the GRE. 

 What schools really want to see is if you have both the academic skills and the drive. They want to know what problems you want to solve in the field. Good news, the OPs scores should have gotten him past round #1 (GRE/GPA evaluation), but likely they had applicants who were stronger in the round #2 evaluation (LOR and SOP). The more competitive applicants usually have a masters degree, additional professional experience, and/or have direct ties to a research professor's lab. The GRE becomes less important if you have an abundance of experience demonstrating your verbal and quantitative logic skills elsewhere.

Coming directly from a clinical psych undergrad, if you have great grades and experience elsewhere,  you still need BOTH a strong verbal and quant (around 160).  If you have a lower GRE you really have to shine elsewhere in the application. Most doctoral applicants have research experience, good to great grades, and good LORs (masters is a lot more lenient). So the GRE become the only other factor to compare applicants on.

In short, you have to use numbers to prove that you are both skilled and the drive equal, or more than, more experienced applicants. Not an easy task when they often only accept 4 people.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by _kita

[Clinapp2017]

R.e. all the comments about GRE quant not mattering... it very much does matter. (Source: my former mentor in undergrad was DCT of the clinical program). Having a good verbal is great, but if your quant is abysmal and other candidates with equally good experience (which MANY exist) have a better quant, you may get passed over virtually every time (as Kita notes). Clinical programs already have a stigma at many psychology institutions as being the "people who are bad at stats." Thus, some basic expertise in math, as evidence by relative success on the GRE, is important. (For reference, I had a 70th percentile score, so not great, but got into a wonderful institution for my Ph.D., so you don't need like an 85+ percentile score). 

Also, whether or not the GRE predicts success in graduate school is an issue up for major debate. It does, however, predict how people can do on standardized tests (of which you will take MANY as a clinical psych Ph.D. student on the road to your license and various accreditations). 

 

Also, if a program does not require a GRE for clinical psych, I can almost guarantee that it is not a program worth your time and you will likely pay $$$ vs. being funded. 

 

I would consider taking a class to help you learn how to take the GRE better... I am not sure how long you studied, but those have been proven to boost scores. If you can pass the 310 mark combined, you will be competitive for most programs based off your GPA and array of experiences (assuming, of course, you apply to programs where  you actually match the research interests of your prospective mentors because match is so, so, so, so key). Further, RAships are a real crap-shoot, so keep applying and don't be discouraged! 

[JungianShadow]

I used Magoosh for 3 months for around 5 hours a day, and didn't really hit my mark. I know my areas of research might not be as refined as they should be, but I have a general interest in depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, and OCD. The masters in counseling programs I have been looking at are MS programs that require you to do a masters thesis as well, but I'm of course open to anything that would be a nice transition into a clinical PhD. However, these programs will cost anywhere from 20-30k more and I'm already at 16k in debt (after saving and paying off loans of 30k). I am more interested in the clinical side of psychology, but I am very comfortable and understand that research is a very important facet of clinical psychology. So in essence maybe I should look into other masters programs that would transition well into a doctorate program besides counseling? I'm based out of Wisconsin, but I'm willing to relocate. I just wanted to choose the counseling side of psychology to have some sort career lined up if I fall back into the situation I am in now. 

So the big question is... would it be worth it to take one more year to retake the GRE, or would it be more proactive to invest into a masters program that would show I have much more experience than just higher GRE scores?

Thank you all so much for answering and helping me out. It really means the world and helps with my own anxiety.

 

[_kita]

You should definitely look around. Counseling is not what you described. A counseling masters degree is less about abnormal clinical psychology and more about therapeutic techniques.

[JungianShadow]

Sounds good, I'll definitely look into some different programs. Thanks for the advice. 

[Sherrinford]

If you want my opinion, you don't need a Masters. There are different pros to getting one, but there are cons too. In some cases, it can even hurt you because some programs prefer to take undergrads.

You have entry level research experience which is enough to get a lot of RA jobs/volunteering opportunities. A lot of getting into a research lab is just timing. In my opinion, if moving is an option, try to move to a place that has research labs available that you can apply to. Take at least a year to really solidify some research experience in a specific sector that you're interested in (e.g. anxiety, psychotic disorders). The more specific your research focus can be, the better. Being a little general/flexible is not bad either, but too general or too many interests will not really help you. When you apply to research labs in PhD programs, you're applying for usually very specific research focii (is that a word?). 

You need to retake the GREs though, that math score is terrible. You will want at least a 160 in Verbal, and a Math around a 157. Take the extra year to do more research, maybe some clinical volunteering on the side, and study for the GREs. Also use this as an opportunity to decide whether a PhD is really for you (they are heavily research degrees and a big commitment so really decide this is what you want to pursue).

Best of luck.

S