How important is it to have 3 LOR?

[samman1994]

Hello everyone,

I've come across a slight potential dilemma. I've received my GRE scores and uploaded/sent them, finished almost all my SOPs and uploaded them, filled out the applications and uploaded the writing samples as well. I've had 2 out of 3 LORs uploaded for every school I'm applying to. However, there is still one LOR I'm still waiting on before I submit my applications. I have emailed this person twice now regarding this matter (spread across 2 weeks), letting them know what schools they should have received emails from regarding LOR, and that the deadline is Nov 20th (wanted to give myself some time if he didn't). He has not responded to any of my emails as of late. Now I trust this person, and I trust they have seen my emails (I hope). I don't think the lack of a response or failure to upload anything yet is of ill intention; however it is starting to concern me as that deadline gets closer and I still receive no uploads or replies to emails. 

I don't want to physically get up and go to his office and let him know (we are that close, but I still think it'll look bad), but I also am concerned he may forget, or get so busy he isn't able to upload them. At this point in time, I really don't have anyone else that I'm close with that I would or could ask for a LOR (especially telling them they only have one week to upload it). So I'm starting to come the realization I may only have 2 LOR instead of 3, which is where the question come up. How important is it to have 3 LOR instead of 2? Will it look bad if I had 3 people to upload but only 2 did? Do you think if worst comes to worst, I should get up and go to his office (after the deadline passes)? 

[Warelin]

A fair number of programs allow some time for letter writers to submit after the deadline. Usually,  letter writers can submit even after the application is submitted. Professors can be very busy people in academia and universities expect and respect that.

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

Is this an application you can't submit before the last LoR is in? If it is, definitely go by their office next week. If it's not, submit the app as is and see if they submit the letter by the deadline. You've sent two reminder emails already, but one more (say Thursday or Friday before it's due) wouldn't be a bad thing if you haven't heard back by then. 

[fuzzylogician]

46 minutes ago, GreenEyedTrombonist said:

Is this an application you can't submit before the last LoR is in? If it is, definitely go by their office next week. If it's not, submit the app as is and see if they submit the letter by the deadline. You've sent two reminder emails already, but one more (say Thursday or Friday before it's due) wouldn't be a bad thing if you haven't heard back by then. 

This. Your LOR writer may very well have other priorities in mind, such that your letter isn't at the top of the list more than 10 days or a week out from the actual deadline. (If fact, as was noted above, there's often some leeway for late letters even beyond the official deadline for students, and your professor may know this.) If you don't have to wait for the letter to submit (=the usual case, as far as I know), just go ahead and submit. There is no reason for you to wait for the letter first. If you actually do need it, let your letter writer know; this would be an unusual situation and may affect their plans. If you have a chance to see the prof in person, you could try having a quick chat instead of sending another email at this point. But to the extent that you just want the letter submitted early but you can submit your application without it, I think you need to let it go until just around the deadline and then send another reminder, keeping in mind that even then it might take a bit longer. 

[TakeruK]

On 11/12/2017 at 11:11 AM, samman1994 said:

Now I trust this person, and I trust they have seen my emails (I hope). I don't think the lack of a response or failure to upload anything yet is of ill intention; however it is starting to concern me as that deadline gets closer and I still receive no uploads or replies to emails.

As others said, most faculty members schedule things for the last minute due to busy schedules. I used to wonder why people would do this because leaving things to the deadline always stressed me out. However, in the past few years, I am now guilty of this too. Basically, for most things that don't involve waiting on other people and does not directly advance my own research agenda, the "deadline date" means I start the task 1 or 2 days before that date depending on how long I will need to complete it. 

Because you trust this person, I think you should be okay. If you want to make sure that they actually received the emails (what if there was a typo, or you used an email they don't normally check) then I think dropping by their office really is the best thing to do. There's no reason a 3rd email at this point will make more of a difference. One time, I ended up asking someone I knew who was still in the prof's group to see if they were still around (or if they were traveling). If you really really do not want to see the prof in person (although I think you should if schedule allows it, I remember you are working now), then send an email 48 hours before the deadline.

[samman1994]

I've called and emailed some of the schools, and all of them allow the writer to submit their letter after I send the application, but almost none of them allow the writer to send a letter after the deadline (well one of them told me they theoretically still can, but the committee won't look at). I think I'll wait until a week before the deadline and just drop by and say hi (and follow up on the letter). 

[firefoxquantum]

Soooo what my takeaway is that, Universities accept LORs after their deadlines have passed as well? That's a first if you ask me..

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

@firefoxquantum many programs will not penalize a student for a late LoR. I don't think it's something they advertise, but it seems to be a fairly common practice to still accept LoRs after the official deadline if the rest of the application is complete. 

That being said, it's always best to not assume this is the practice and to ask the programs if you end up in such a situation (and also do your best to not end up in this situation if you can help it). I, personally, requested LoRs well in advance and have a schedule for reminding my writers 2 weeks before the deadline if they have yet to submit. From previous applications, I know one of my writers likes to submit on the deadline so I don't stress too much about this stuff. Confirming she has what she needs 2 weeks out helps with my anxiety and gives us the opportunity to address any issues before it's too late. 

[firefoxquantum]

@GreenEyedTrombonist That's a good strategy, something I might implement in my approach as well. That being said, it is a welcome thought that universities are considerate enough to understand people working in academia can be super busy and an occasional slip of deadline may occur here and there.

I haven't hit up my professors in recent times, might as well do it soon. Good luck to you!

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

You as well @firefoxquantum ! I'm actually at my two-week mark for my first deadline so I'll be emailing my writer tomorrow.

[TakeruK]

5 hours ago, firefoxquantum said:

@GreenEyedTrombonist That's a good strategy, something I might implement in my approach as well. That being said, it is a welcome thought that universities are considerate enough to understand people working in academia can be super busy and an occasional slip of deadline may occur here and there.

The people who set the deadline and sit on the committees that determine admission are professors too. And these professors also have dozens of letters they need to write for their own students, postdocs, colleagues etc. So, it's common for committees to be forgiving on deadlines for the parts of the application that aren't submitted by the student. But as @GreenEyedTrombonist said, they probably won't advertise it (since everyone will take advantage) and you can't count on it. 

Generally, if you ask, "Can my letter arrive after the deadline?" the answer will be "No, everything must arrive by the deadline." But if your situation is something like "My letter writer had a family emergency and will not be able to submit on time", you might get "Okay, please submit as soon as possible and we will add it to your profile."

As long as the dept doesn't receive too many applications that they just cut incomplete files to avoid extra work and as long as the application is complete before the committee starts to evaluate, then it is okay. Even in some cases, a committee **may** be willing to evaluate an incomplete application as long as it is complete before they make a decision. Sometimes, it's possible to make a determination on admission with only 2 out of 3 letters. Generally this isn't good for you though, so probably best to be avoided since you would want to include as many strengths in your application as possible!

Personally I went with a 2-week, 2-day and day-after (if necessary) reminders. I did them in batches though (e.g. applications around Dec 1, Dec 15 and Jan 1 deadlines). I try to wait until the last batch's deadline has passed before reminding about future ones (i..e Dec 15 after Dec 1). Jan 1 was tricky since it's during the winter break for most schools. I sent those reminders right on Dec 16 and mentioned them at the 2-day reminder for Dec 15 deadlines.

[samman1994]

So update as to the situation. My writer finally replied and said he couldn't write it without having the program name. So I sent him the names of the programs I was applying to, and he uploaded them 2 days after that. 

[fuzzylogician]

8 minutes ago, samman1994 said:

So update as to the situation. My writer finally replied and said he couldn't write it without having the program name. So I sent him the names of the programs I was applying to, and he uploaded them 2 days after that. 

Lesson for life: When you ask someone to write you a letter, give them all the relevant information early on. That includes what programs you're applying to (names, websites, any other non-obvious information), and deadlines. Not everyone will do your work for you. 

Glad it's worked out. 

[firefoxquantum]

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On 11/16/2017 at 9:11 PM, TakeruK said:

Personally I went with a 2-week, 2-day and day-after (if necessary) reminders. I did them in batches though (e.g. applications around Dec 1, Dec 15 and Jan 1 deadlines). I try to wait until the last batch's deadline has passed before reminding about future ones (i..e Dec 15 after Dec 1). Jan 1 was tricky since it's during the winter break for most schools. I sent those reminders right on Dec 16 and mentioned them at the 2-day reminder for Dec 15 deadlines.

That was some really good info. Thank you. Btw can you elaborate a little on this part? Like most of the schools I'm applying to have deadlines by Dec 15th, and I had talked to professors before leaving way back in July. What do you reckon I do?

[TakeruK]

On 11/18/2017 at 6:15 AM, firefoxquantum said:

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That was some really good info. Thank you. Btw can you elaborate a little on this part? Like most of the schools I'm applying to have deadlines by Dec 15th, and I had talked to professors before leaving way back in July. What do you reckon I do?

Here's what I did. Around July/August: Talked to profs about my grad school plans so they know to expect LOR. But also since they were good mentors, to get their thoughts/advice. 

(approx) October 1: let them know about my draft school list, get feedback / make final application determinations. Ask them how they would like to be notified and reminded for letter requests. Ask them what else they need to write letters (draft SOP? transcripts? etc.)

(approx) November 1: created a 1-page summary of all deadlines, dept names, POIs, research interets, GPA/GRE score summary etc. Sent this to profs along with plan for reminders and whatever the profs wanted.

Then, sent reminders as I said above.

So for you, if you haven't talked to the profs since July, doing what I did on Nov 1 is probably a good idea. Also a good idea to check in with them in case they wanted some other info for the letters so you have time to provide it before the Dec 15 deadlines.

[fuzzylogician]

^ In addition, it's helpful to generate all of your LOR prompts in one sitting, if possible. This may not work for all schools because some (annoyingly) will only generate the prompt after you submit the application on your end. But for those that allow it, generate all the prompts 4-6 weeks prior to the earliest deadline (or in batches, if you have deadlines ranging from early December to late January, for example), then use this as an opportunity to send another reminder: dear profs, I just generated several LOR prompts, which you should have received over the past hour. Here is the list: <school, deadline>, <school, deadline>, etc. Please let me know if you haven't received emails from any of these schools. I'll send another reminder two weeks before each deadline. Please let me know if there is any additional information I can provide to assist you in writing a strong letter on my behalf. Thank you! -me. 

[firefoxquantum]

On 11/20/2017 at 12:34 AM, TakeruK said:

Here's what I did. Around July/August: Talked to profs about my grad school plans so they know to expect LOR. But also since they were good mentors, to get their thoughts/advice. 

(approx) October 1: let them know about my draft school list, get feedback / make final application determinations. Ask them how they would like to be notified and reminded for letter requests. Ask them what else they need to write letters (draft SOP? transcripts? etc.)

(approx) November 1: created a 1-page summary of all deadlines, dept names, POIs, research interets, GPA/GRE score summary etc. Sent this to profs along with plan for reminders and whatever the profs wanted.

Then, sent reminders as I said above.

So for you, if you haven't talked to the profs since July, doing what I did on Nov 1 is probably a good idea. Also a good idea to check in with them in case they wanted some other info for the letters so you have time to provide it before the Dec 15 deadlines.

That sound great. I will try to finish the one page summary by today evening (since I already have several of those things: LOR drafts, transcripts, list of schools with deadlines, etc as separate files). Also since it is time that our university has the term end examinations, I guess the faculties would be a little less busy. This is super helpful advice and I appreciate ya for taking out time and helping me

[TakeruK]

11 hours ago, firefoxquantum said:

That sound great. I will try to finish the one page summary by today evening (since I already have several of those things: LOR drafts, transcripts, list of schools with deadlines, etc as separate files). Also since it is time that our university has the term end examinations, I guess the faculties would be a little less busy. This is super helpful advice and I appreciate ya for taking out time and helping me

No problem

By the way, at most schools/depts I've been at, the end of term exams is an extra busy time for faculty because most schools have policies like "final grades must be submitted X days after the final exam". So that's why having the advance notice is helpful for profs, especially for Dec 15 (for my school's exam schedule)