How many applications are too many? - English Reformation

[AGingeryGinger]

Hi!

I am currently trying to figure out what programs I generally want to apply to, and what programs I could apply to. My focus is on the English Reformation. Ultimately, I am trying to figure out how many applications are too much.

In History, I am currently applying to: Wisconsin - Madison, Baylor, Purdue, U Illinois Chicago, and Vanderbilt

In Theology - Fordham, SMU, and McGill.

I am admittedly "shotgunning" my applications. I talked with my current MA advisor and also had a phone interview with a professor at U of Miami, and they both agreed that getting into a PhD program in the English Reformation is very competitive and there are very few places that accept them.

I am just not sure if I am applying to too many places. My main concern is that due to the limited number of places to study a PhD in the English Reformation, I wanted to apply to a bunch in order to have a shot at getting into one of them. 

I looked into U of Miami and the professor said that they just weren't putting out PhD's with academic jobs. I also looked into CGU, but they've been unable to provide full funding for their students for the past 3 years. 

Is my paranoia in applying to PhD programs justified? or Should i try to cut a few from my list?

Thanks!

 

[ashiepoo72]

1 hour ago, AGingeryGinger said:

Hi!

I am currently trying to figure out what programs I generally want to apply to, and what programs I could apply to. My focus is on the English Reformation. Ultimately, I am trying to figure out how many applications are too much.

In History, I am currently applying to: Wisconsin - Madison, Baylor, Purdue, U Illinois Chicago, and Vanderbilt

In Theology - Fordham, SMU, and McGill.

I am admittedly "shotgunning" my applications. I talked with my current MA advisor and also had a phone interview with a professor at U of Miami, and they both agreed that getting into a PhD program in the English Reformation is very competitive and there are very few places that accept them.

I am just not sure if I am applying to too many places. My main concern is that due to the limited number of places to study a PhD in the English Reformation, I wanted to apply to a bunch in order to have a shot at getting into one of them. 

I looked into U of Miami and the professor said that they just weren't putting out PhD's with academic jobs. I also looked into CGU, but they've been unable to provide full funding for their students for the past 3 years. 

Is my paranoia in applying to PhD programs justified? or Should i try to cut a few from my list?

Thanks!

 

There's no hard and fast rule on how many applications are too many. I would apply to as many programs as you would be willing to attend that are a good fit for your research, keeping in mind rank (overall and in your subfield) and what you can afford in terms of the cost of application materials. I applied to 13 programs after doing pretty extensive research on fit and contacting POIs. In retrospect that was probably too many, but at the time I was worried about how competitive grad schools apps are, really wanted to do a PhD and felt good about all the programs to which I applied. If you can afford it, my thinking is it's better to have a few more apps than too few.

Note on placement: if your goal is to be a professor, apply to places that actually place people in academic jobs. You'll still face an uphill battle on the job market--as we all will--but you'll have a better shot.

Edited December 8, 2017 by ashiepoo72

[AP]

I'm self-citing here from Sept 4:

My response is always the same: as many as you can afford money-wise and application-materials-wise.  

[TMP]

Ah, I remember @ashiepoo72's cycle.... she was quite frantic.   I agree with both-- as long as you can afford the process financially, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

You might want to look at Ohio State for Sara Butler.  She recently joined our department for opportunities to work with graduate students and I think she's offering a course in the spring.  Her work looks very, very cool! Also, with the tax stupidity happening, it doesn't hurt to look more into public universities for PhD (you get residency after one year in Ohio).  

[khigh]

Honestly, I applied to one program- University of Minnesota. My undergrad advisor went to the U, his advisor went to the U, and so forth.  There is exactly one program in the USA that specializes in the field I am passionate about, and even the U is pulling away.  I want to specifically work on the political culture/pamphlets of the Dutch Republic in the 17th century.  I moved from Oklahoma to Minnesota over the summer to be close to the U and attend symposiums and conferences.  

 

So, basically, if I do not get in, then I apply to Dutch universities early next year- most of them have early June deadlines for applications. I wouldn't do what I did if your concentration allows for it.

[VAZ]

@khigh  James Tracy has retired. Who else do you have in mind as your potential supervisor?

[khigh]

10 minutes ago, VAZ said:

@khigh  James Tracy has retired. Who else do you have in mind as your potential supervisor?

I know he has.  That was my advisor's advisor.  I've met with Dr. Reyerson to talk about looking at the Dutch role in the Mediterranean and Dr Shank because he has some connections with Utrecht. Tracy would have been amazing, but there are rumors that he is still around Minneapolis, so it's in the process to maybe have coffee with him sometime.  His Founding of the Dutch Republic made me obsessed with the Republic. 

[dr. t]

Brown has a pretty strong early modern department, including Tim Harris and Hal Cook.

I think the UMiami prof kind of put their finger on the concerns I would have over your application list - it's not that you necessarily have too many schools, it's that the schools you have mostly have fairly shitty placement records. 

Here's a productive exercise: go to the academic jobs wiki page and check out postings for English reformations history over the past few years. Then go to those school's pages and see who got the job, and where did they get their degree. That should get you a decent sense of the prestige networks in your subfield.

[psstein]

@telkanuru has, as usual, hit the nail on the head.

I'm at UW-Madison, so I can tell you that our placement record is quite good and there's a very strong emphasis on non-academic jobs, at least so far as I've found. Bluntly speaking, a mediocre program can and will shut doors for you that a good program will not. Academic jobs are few and far between, so you should maximize your chances with an excellent program.

Illinois-Chicago, Baylor, and Purdue do not strike me as great places. I can't say anything one way or the other about Vanderbilt.

 

 

 

[ashiepoo72]

5 hours ago, khigh said:

Honestly, I applied to one program- University of Minnesota. My undergrad advisor went to the U, his advisor went to the U, and so forth.  There is exactly one program in the USA that specializes in the field I am passionate about, and even the U is pulling away.  I want to specifically work on the political culture/pamphlets of the Dutch Republic in the 17th century.  I moved from Oklahoma to Minnesota over the summer to be close to the U and attend symposiums and conferences.  

 

So, basically, if I do not get in, then I apply to Dutch universities early next year- most of them have early June deadlines for applications. I wouldn't do what I did if your concentration allows for it.

Best of luck! I agonized over deciding between my program and Minnesota. Minn has such a fantastic department.

[khigh]

1 hour ago, ashiepoo72 said:

Best of luck! I agonized over deciding between my program and Minnesota. Minn has such a fantastic department.

I love the people I have met there.  I live about 3 miles from campus now, so I go to lectures and symposiums on my days off to talk and mingle.  I took a gap year to move up here because I knew what program I wanted and they are very focused on what you can do for Minnesota when you graduate.  I also love snow, so it's a perfect fit, haha.  

[TMP]

11 hours ago, khigh said:

I love the people I have met there.  I live about 3 miles from campus now, so I go to lectures and symposiums on my days off to talk and mingle.  I took a gap year to move up here because I knew what program I wanted and they are very focused on what you can do for Minnesota when you graduate.  I also love snow, so it's a perfect fit, haha.  

Your interest in Dutch Republic immediately makes me think of Dagomar Deroot, who is now at Georgetown U and has a PhD from York University (Canada).

[TheHessianHistorian]

On 12/8/2017 at 10:38 AM, AGingeryGinger said:

Hi!

I am currently trying to figure out what programs I generally want to apply to, and what programs I could apply to. My focus is on the English Reformation. Ultimately, I am trying to figure out how many applications are too much.

In History, I am currently applying to: Wisconsin - Madison, Baylor, Purdue, U Illinois Chicago, and Vanderbilt

In Theology - Fordham, SMU, and McGill.

I am admittedly "shotgunning" my applications. I talked with my current MA advisor and also had a phone interview with a professor at U of Miami, and they both agreed that getting into a PhD program in the English Reformation is very competitive and there are very few places that accept them.

I am just not sure if I am applying to too many places. My main concern is that due to the limited number of places to study a PhD in the English Reformation, I wanted to apply to a bunch in order to have a shot at getting into one of them. 

I looked into U of Miami and the professor said that they just weren't putting out PhD's with academic jobs. I also looked into CGU, but they've been unable to provide full funding for their students for the past 3 years. 

Is my paranoia in applying to PhD programs justified? or Should i try to cut a few from my list?

Thanks!

 

My mentors have consistently told me that the goal, when applying to graduate programs in history, is to apply to 10-20 schools. Above 20 might be overkill, but you probably want to aim for 15 schools, give or take, to make sure you find the very best funding offering that you possibly can.

[dr. t]

1 hour ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

My mentors have consistently told me that the goal, when applying to graduate programs in history, is to apply to 10-20 schools.

There is no other way to put this: your mentors are horribly, horribly wrong. Please don't do this. It's a waste of your time and money.

Edited January 5, 2018 by telkanuru

[TheHessianHistorian]

10 hours ago, telkanuru said:

There is no other way to put this: your mentors are horribly, horribly wrong. Please don't do this. It's a waste of your time and money.

I don't know... I think the difference between $500, $1000, or $1500 in application costs is negligible considering that grad school is a several-year commitment. If applying to a few more schools is able to help you find that acceptance offer with an extra $5,000/year in funding (heck, even an extra $500/year in funding, since we're talking several years here), it's worth it to throw a few more applications in the mix.

Edited January 5, 2018 by TheHessianHistorian

[PaulaHsiuling]

14 hours ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

My mentors have consistently told me that the goal, when applying to graduate programs in history, is to apply to 10-20 schools. Above 20 might be overkill, but you probably want to aim for 15 schools, give or take, to make sure you find the very best funding offering that you possibly can.

I think this advice might have been more applicable back when programs would accept many people and only fund some of them. These days, most reputable programs only accept people they can fund completely for ~5 years, and therefore cohorts are very small. You'd be much better off, in my view, to devote more time and effort to fewer applications, perhaps 5-10.

[dr. t]

10 hours ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

I don't know... I think the difference between $500, $1000, or $1500 in application costs is negligible considering that grad school is a several-year commitment. If applying to a few more schools is able to help you find that acceptance offer with an extra $5,000/year in funding (heck, even an extra $500/year in funding, since we're talking several years here), it's worth it to throw a few more applications in the mix.

I'm not sure you and I are understanding each other. For a given subdiscipline, there are not more than 10 (realistically, more than 5) universities worth going to, either because of professors or because of funding. I'm not going to rehash why in detail; it's been pretty extensively covered elsewhere. The short version is that the vast majority of schools do not provide either the resources to write a good dissertation or a degree that will get you a job after the fact. Your method gives you a higher chance of getting into a graduate school. That's not a useful or productive goal.

For example, for your own list, Binghamton University, Northern Illinois University, Texas Tech University, University of Alabama, University of Arizona, University of Oregon, Vanderbilt University, Western Michigan University, and Wright State University are all not worth attending for a history PhD, even if admitted. They are certainly not worth the effort of completing their application forms, never mind the app fee.

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by telkanuru

[dr. t]

7 hours ago, PaulaHsiuling said:

I think this advice might have been more applicable back when programs would accept many people and only fund some of them. These days, most reputable programs only accept people they can fund completely for ~5 years, and therefore cohorts are very small. You'd be much better off, in my view, to devote more time and effort to fewer applications, perhaps 5-10.

Frankly, I'm not sure this advice was applicable any time after 1970. 

[TheHessianHistorian]

4 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

For example, for your own list, Binghamton University, Northern Illinois University, Texas Tech University, University of Alabama, University of Arizona, University of Oregon, Vanderbilt University, Western Michigan University, and Wright State University are all not worth attending for a history PhD, even if admitted. They are certainly not worth the effort of completing their application forms, never mind the app fee.

 

Point taken, but the aforementioned schools I am applying to are for a Master's degree, not a Ph.D. And I highly disagree with you that Vanderbilt's doctoral program is not worth attending. It is a very highly ranked and resource-rich program, especially for early modern Germanists like myself.

I am applying to the doctoral programs at Princeton, UNC, UI-Urbana, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, and UC-Davis.

[dr. t]

20 minutes ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

Point taken, but the aforementioned schools I am applying to are for a Master's degree, not a Ph.D. And I highly disagree with you that Vanderbilt's doctoral program is not worth attending. It is a very highly ranked and resource-rich program, especially for early modern Germanists like myself.

I am applying to the doctoral programs at Princeton, UNC, UI-Urbana, Vanderbilt, WUSTL, and UC-Davis.

Oh, for an MA do whatever you want. That many schools is pretty overkill, but MA apps, unlike PhD apps, are a numbers game.

You can disagree with me all you want, but the fact remains that Vandy has, as of 2015, placed exactly 1 graduate in a TT job in the past 7-10 years. That's not a strong or highly-ranked program. Of that list, only Princeton, Davis, and UNC really upper tier.

Edit: in fact, I count only 10 tenure or tenure track professors from Vandy overall. Compare that with 324 from Harvard

Edited January 6, 2018 by telkanuru

[khigh]

1 hour ago, telkanuru said:

Oh, for an MA do whatever you want. That many schools is pretty overkill, but MA apps, unlike PhD apps, are a numbers game.

You can disagree with me all you want, but the fact remains that Vandy has, as of 2015, placed exactly 1 graduate in a TT job in the past 7-10 years. That's not a strong or highly-ranked program. Of that list, only Princeton, Davis, and UNC really upper tier.

Edit: in fact, I count only 10 tenure or tenure track professors from Vandy overall. Compare that with 324 from Harvard

Oh, Vandy, the graduate school that means I am supporting both myself and an unemployed historian on my salary.  That Vanderbilt degree sure got him a job...teaching at 5 universities in 5 years and now at a market in Germany making minimum wage while he researches- trying to publish anything. I make much, much more selling luxury cars in my (hopefully) gap year.  Granted, I can't say much because I want to go to a lower ranked uni, but I would be happy teaching in the Minneapolis Public School system when it's all done.

I've been following this thread and trying to come up with 5 schools in my sub-discipline that would match my interests.  I can think of three and that's only if I can get the emeritus prof to serve as an unofficial advisor. Geographic restrictions narrowed that list to 1 (we love winter and the Midwest). 

[psstein]

1 hour ago, telkanuru said:

Oh, for an MA do whatever you want. That many schools is pretty overkill, but MA apps, unlike PhD apps, are a numbers game.

You can disagree with me all you want, but the fact remains that Vandy has, as of 2015, placed exactly 1 graduate in a TT job in the past 7-10 years. That's not a strong or highly-ranked program. Of that list, only Princeton, Davis, and UNC really upper tier.

Edit: in fact, I count only 10 tenure or tenure track professors from Vandy overall. Compare that with 324 from Harvard

That 1 TT job works at Wisconsin (Pablo Gomez). He's an orthopedic surgeon and his first book, The Experiential Caribbean, is widely acclaimed.

He's an outstanding scholar and his experience is far from typical.

[psstein]

1 hour ago, telkanuru said:

Frankly, I'm not sure this advice was applicable any time after 1970. 

I meant to respond to this in my earlier post. As I've said elsewhere, I applied to 9 programs, which was 4 more than I should've. If were reapplying, I have a list of about three I'm actually interested in.

Along the lines of things that haven't been applicable, my grandparents (my grandmother has a MA in English History from the early 60s and my grandfather from 1965/66, PhD in American economic history) have told me that I should only bother with a dissertation based on sources in English. I wasn't particularly tolerant of that view and it also beggars belief as to how anyone writes about sources in other languages. 

[AGingeryGinger]

I ended up applying to several schools in various ranks, considering i was applying to both theology and history programs:

Theology:

McGill, Fordham, Southern Methodist University

History:

Vanderbilt, Baylor, U of Illinois - Chicago (UC didn't have a professor in my field), Purdue, U of Cincinnati.

I came to this list after many long hours that ended up not looking at school names but just trying to find people in my field. Admittedly, the English Reformation is not as popular as it once was. Some schools, which had excellent programs, such as U of Miami, requested I not apply there due to their lack of academia job placement in the last several years. So it boiled down to a lot of factors, mainly which schools offered funding (which is why i considered, but didn't apply to, Claremont Graduate) and the desert combing search to find people in my field.

Edited January 6, 2018 by AGingeryGinger

[khigh]

Honestly, if I were to do English Reformation, the only person I would really like to work under is Ben Kaplan at UCL. I once wrote him an email my sophomore year of undergrad telling him how much I loved his work and I may have called him a rockstar.  We've sent a few emails back and forth and I love Divided by Faith. He mixes Low Countries and English Reformation.