How many applications are too many? - English Reformation

[AGingeryGinger]

1 hour ago, khigh said:

Honestly, if I were to do English Reformation, the only person I would really like to work under is Ben Kaplan at UCL. I once wrote him an email my sophomore year of undergrad telling him how much I loved his work and I may have called him a rockstar.  We've sent a few emails back and forth and I love Divided by Faith. He mixes Low Countries and English Reformation. 

Torrance Kirby at Mcgill (i'm actually finishing up the application right now) is another very strong person I want to work under. It ended up being I would apply to "higher tier" schools, just most of them don't have English Reformation historians. Peter Lake and Torrance Kirby are the top in the field right now, so hence why i applied. 

[AGingeryGinger]

On 12/9/2017 at 1:22 PM, telkanuru said:

Brown has a pretty strong early modern department, including Tim Harris and Hal Cook.

I think the UMiami prof kind of put their finger on the concerns I would have over your application list - it's not that you necessarily have too many schools, it's that the schools you have mostly have fairly shitty placement records. 

Here's a productive exercise: go to the academic jobs wiki page and check out postings for English reformations history over the past few years. Then go to those school's pages and see who got the job, and where did they get their degree. That should get you a decent sense of the prestige networks in your subfield.

That's extremely helpful. I didn't know an archive like this existed. 

And I agree, I applied to mostly mid-tier programs. Baylor has a new history phd but has an outstanding placement record, mainly in Christian universities (which I'm okay with). 

Half of my problem was just finding someone that even specialized in the English reformation. Save going to the UK, what i applied to (save for claremont graduate and uc berkeley/ SB) is an exhaustive list of english reformation historians. 

[Imenol]

What about Yale? Both Carlos Eire and Keith E. Wrightson teach there -it looks to me like quite a great combination for anyone wanting to work on the Reformation!

[DGrayson]

4 hours ago, Imenol said:

What about Yale? Both Carlos Eire and Keith E. Wrightson teach there -it looks to me like quite a great combination for anyone wanting to work on the Reformation!

Carlos is great! Keith Wrightson is getting ready to retire in the next couple of years, but Bruce Gordon may also be someone to look at. He doesn't work specifically on England but he'd be able to help advise. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by DGrayson

[DGrayson]

On 1/5/2018 at 8:09 PM, telkanuru said:

Oh, for an MA do whatever you want. That many schools is pretty overkill, but MA apps, unlike PhD apps, are a numbers game.

You can disagree with me all you want, but the fact remains that Vandy has, as of 2015, placed exactly 1 graduate in a TT job in the past 7-10 years. That's not a strong or highly-ranked program. Of that list, only Princeton, Davis, and UNC really upper tier.

Edit: in fact, I count only 10 tenure or tenure track professors from Vandy overall. Compare that with 324 from Harvard

I'm surprised about Vanderbilt's placement considering how generally well regarded Peter Lake is in well respected in early modern England.... Is it the resources of the school perhaps? 

[dr. t]

26 minutes ago, DGrayson said:

I'm surprised about Vanderbilt's placement considering how generally well regarded Peter Lake is in well respected in early modern England.... Is it the resources of the school perhaps? 

Yes, although I don't think traditional EM England is really a growth field. People who want to do that sort of history are now more in the Transnational or "Atlantic World" moment, in my experience, although that's somewhat due to my program.

[psstein]

12 hours ago, telkanuru said:

Yes, although I don't think traditional EM England is really a growth field. People who want to do that sort of history are now more in the Transnational or "Atlantic World" moment, in my experience, although that's somewhat due to my program.

It depends how it's approached. My undergrad advisor, who was hired about 8 years ago, did Early Modern England with particular attention to the history of printing/print culture. But, he also went to Princeton with Anthony Grafton, which undoubtedly helped.

From anecdotal experience in my program, it's more towards transnational approaches. The professors who focus on one or two countries are largely from two or so generations ago.

[khigh]

29 minutes ago, psstein said:

It depends how it's approached. My undergrad advisor, who was hired about 8 years ago, did Early Modern England with particular attention to the history of printing/print culture. But, he also went to Princeton with Anthony Grafton, which undoubtedly helped.

From anecdotal experience in my program, it's more towards transnational approaches. The professors who focus on one or two countries are largely from two or so generations ago.

Except for the Americanists in, say, military history, now that I think about it, you’re right. I was even told to pick a secondary and tertiary region even though I want to focus on one. Regional bubbles have never existed. 

[psstein]

10 hours ago, khigh said:

Except for the Americanists in, say, military history, now that I think about it, you’re right. I was even told to pick a secondary and tertiary region even though I want to focus on one. Regional bubbles have never existed. 

Yes and no, American history until about the mid-20th century was often pretty closed off from the rest of the world. My grandfather received his PhD in the mid 1960s and his dissertation is about American journalism in the Great Depression.

Even American military historians have to focus on different areas today. It is very rare to see a military historian who doesn't at least pay lip service to race or gender.

[Kingsouth]

Reading through this thread and was surprised no one mentioned Pincus at Yale. That entire department is extremely strong in EM Europe.

But I have to second @telkanuru and @psstein, virtually every top tier EM English focus has drifted to a more 'Global' focus. Princeton with Colley, Harvard with Armitage, Columbia with Brown, Duke with Stern and the aforementioned Pincus. Pigeonholing yourself by focusing exclusively on one geographically bounded historic space doesn't seem to be where the EM field is heading.

Also, I don't believe Peter Lake is taking on any new grad students, however I've been told that Lauren Benton will be. If that changes anything at all...

To the OP, I was told to keep me applications to around 5, and only with programs that my advisors believed were very good fits for my proposed project. This was coming from Columbia and Harvard grads.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Kingsouth

[DGrayson]

16 minutes ago, Kingsouth said:

Reading through this thread and was surprised no one mentioned Pincus at Yale. That entire department is extremely strong in EM Europe.

But I have to second @telkanuru and @psstein, virtually every top tier EM English focus has drifted to a more 'Global' focus. Princeton with Colley, Harvard with Armitage, Columbia with Brown, Duke with Stern and the aforementioned Pincus. Pigeonholing yourself by focusing exclusively on one geographically bounded historic space doesn't seem to be where the EM field is heading.

Also, I don't believe Peter Lake is taking on any new grad students, however I've been told that Lauren Benton will be. If that changes anything at all...

To the OP, I was told to keep me applications to around 5, and only with programs that my advisors believed were very good fits for my proposed project. This was coming from Columbia and Harvard grads.

Is Cooley still taking graduate students? I believe Peter Lake is taking students, at least he didn't mention anything when I reached out this cycle. Things could have changed though. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by DGrayson

[Kingsouth]

7 minutes ago, DGrayson said:

Is Cooley still taking graduate students? I believe Peter Lake is taking students, at least he didn't mention anything when I reached out this cycle. Things could have changed though. 

Apologies if I'm wrong about Lake, I was informed that he wasn't. And similar position to yourself, Colley didn't mention anything when I spoke to her and a few others at Princeton seemed to under the impression she would.

 

...may have wasted a hundred or so dollars if she isn't. Just another thing to pile on top this mountain of worry I'm currently walking around with.

[DGrayson]

5 minutes ago, Kingsouth said:

Apologies if I'm wrong about Lake, I was informed that he wasn't. And similar position to yourself, Colley didn't mention anything when I spoke to her and a few others at Princeton seemed to under the impression she would.

 

...may have wasted a hundred or so dollars if she isn't. Just another thing to pile on top this mountain of worry I'm currently walking around with.

I don't know anything anymore!  I just heard speculation about Colley though.  

[psstein]

1 hour ago, Kingsouth said:

Reading through this thread and was surprised no one mentioned Pincus at Yale. That entire department is extremely strong in EM Europe.

But I have to second @telkanuru and @psstein, virtually every top tier EM English focus has drifted to a more 'Global' focus. Princeton with Colley, Harvard with Armitage, Columbia with Brown, Duke with Stern and the aforementioned Pincus. Pigeonholing yourself by focusing exclusively on one geographically bounded historic space doesn't seem to be where the EM field is heading.

Also, I don't believe Peter Lake is taking on any new grad students, however I've been told that Lauren Benton will be. If that changes anything at all...

To the OP, I was told to keep me applications to around 5, and only with programs that my advisors believed were very good fits for my proposed project. This was coming from Columbia and Harvard grads.

I didn't know Pincus was still there. I thought he was older than he actually is! 

By the way, Johann Sommerville hasn't taken a grad student in about 5 years, so I'm not sure where he is on that note. Lee Wandel, who'd be the other option, is phasing into retirement. A cohort member is her last grad student.

[ltr317]

I read Colley's "Britons" last year for my Modern Britain class.  It was a great read!   It's too bad if she is nearing retirement.

[Kingsouth]

2 hours ago, psstein said:

I didn't know Pincus was still there. I thought he was older than he actually is! 

By the way, Johann Sommerville hasn't taken a grad student in about 5 years, so I'm not sure where he is on that note. Lee Wandel, who'd be the other option, is phasing into retirement. A cohort member is her last grad student.

I'd always assumed that Pincus and Armitage were both a lot older than they actually are. What I do believe is a very big positive about Yale, apart from the obvious, is the cross-department interaction. They seem to achieve a lot more of this than some schools.

How is it at Wisconsin?

 

@ltr317 second that. Personally hope she never retires.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Kingsouth

[psstein]

14 hours ago, Kingsouth said:

How is it at Wisconsin?

In terms of interdepartment interaction? It varies, but generally good. Area studies (esp. African Studies) departments get along really well with history. The Gender and Women's Studies department has several professors with joint appointments.

History also has a good relationship with philosophy, sociology/anthropology, and classics.

[TheHessianHistorian]

On 1/5/2018 at 7:09 PM, telkanuru said:

Oh, for an MA do whatever you want. That many schools is pretty overkill, but MA apps, unlike PhD apps, are a numbers game.

You can disagree with me all you want, but the fact remains that Vandy has, as of 2015, placed exactly 1 graduate in a TT job in the past 7-10 years. That's not a strong or highly-ranked program. Of that list, only Princeton, Davis, and UNC really upper tier.

Edit: in fact, I count only 10 tenure or tenure track professors from Vandy overall. Compare that with 324 from Harvard

So, I broached the subject with my POI at Vandy, and he told me that on average a couple of the PhD students graduating from Vandy each year are being offered TT positions. So, I checked out their recent grads page online (https://as.vanderbilt.edu/history/graduate/recent.php) and sure enough, there are quite a few Vandy grads in TT and tenured positions. I don't know where you got "only 1 in the past 7-10 years," but that now seems like an either highly misinformed or dishonest statement. In addition to Pablo Gomez, I'm seeing names (all in the last several years) like Ansley Quiros, Erin Woodruff Stone, Erica Hayden, Rachel Donaldson, David LaFevor, and the list goes on and on. Sure Vanderbilt doesn't compare with Harvard, but it's certainly not the dead end you made it out to be. Where did you get that number?

[khigh]

10 minutes ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

So, I broached the subject with my POI at Vandy, and he told me that on average a couple of the PhD students graduating from Vandy each year are being offered TT positions. So, I checked out their recent grads page online (https://as.vanderbilt.edu/history/graduate/recent.php) and sure enough, there are quite a few Vandy grads in TT and tenured positions. I don't know where you got "only 1 in the past 7-10 years," but that now seems like an either highly misinformed or dishonest statement. In addition to Pablo Gomez, I'm seeing names (all in the last several years) like Ansley Quiros, Erin Woodruff Stone, Erica Hayden, Rachel Donaldson, David LaFevor, and the list goes on and on. Sure Vanderbilt doesn't compare with Harvard, but it's certainly not the dead end you made it out to be. Where did you get that number?

The list is outdated unless it's listing their first jobs out of Vandy.  My boyfriend is on that list and let's say he has had his Vandy Phd for almost 8 years now and the longest contract he has ever had was 2 years. The rest were one year contracts. All we got out of his Vandy PhD was $100k in debt. 

Just thought about it for a minute. They must have updated sometime because the appointment listed for boyfriend was his 3rd one out of Vandy. It wasn't his first job.

Edited February 2, 2018 by khigh

[TheHessianHistorian]

5 minutes ago, khigh said:

The list is outdated unless it's listing their first jobs out of Vandy.  My boyfriend is on that list and let's say he has had his Vandy Phd for almost 8 years now and the longest contract he has ever had was 2 years. The rest were one year contracts. All we got out of his Vandy PhD was $100k in debt. 

I'm looking up up-to-date information for the TT PhD graduates on Vandy's list, and they all still seem to be in those positions as far as I can tell. Which of the PhD graduates listed on Vandy's webpage as being in tenured/TT positions are no longer in tenured/TT positions as of now? I can't seem to find them.

[khigh]

2 minutes ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

I'm looking up up-to-date information for the TT PhD graduates on Vandy's list, and they all still seem to be in those positions as far as I can tell. Which of the PhD graduates listed on Vandy's webpage as being in tenured/TT positions are no longer in tenured/TT positions as of now? I can't seem to find them.

I honestly don't know. I just looked for his. I know that one is wrong.

[TheHessianHistorian]

13 minutes ago, khigh said:

I honestly don't know. I just looked for his. I know that one is wrong.

Gotcha. But going from the bottom of the list up and looking for up-to-date information on graduates like David Wheat (graduated 2009, tenured assoc prof at Michigan State), Selena Sandorfer (2009, TT asst prof at Western Kentucky), Larry Rivers (2010, TT asst prof at West Georgia), etc., they're all still there at those institutions as of 2018... 

Edited February 2, 2018 by TheHessianHistorian

[dr. t]

48 minutes ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

So, I broached the subject with my POI at Vandy, and he told me that on average a couple of the PhD students graduating from Vandy each year are being offered TT positions. So, I checked out their recent grads page online (https://as.vanderbilt.edu/history/graduate/recent.php) and sure enough, there are quite a few Vandy grads in TT and tenured positions. I don't know where you got "only 1 in the past 7-10 years," but that now seems like an either highly misinformed or dishonest statement. In addition to Pablo Gomez, I'm seeing names (all in the last several years) like Ansley Quiros, Erin Woodruff Stone, Erica Hayden, Rachel Donaldson, David LaFevor, and the list goes on and on. Sure Vanderbilt doesn't compare with Harvard, but it's certainly not the dead end you made it out to be. Where did you get that number?

I've linked the study - it uses social network analysis of placements to make an argument for academic prestige as a hiring factor - here and elsewhere. That study was released in 2015, and showed 1 Vandy grad as having the rank of Assistant prof; 7-10 years was a timeframe estimate based on that rank (4-7 years for tenure, study is 3 years old). I don't know the hiring or tenure schedule of the people you listed, of course. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by telkanuru

[dr. t]

Ah, I see the issue. The University of North Alabama, Nashville State Community College, and the College of Charleston are not among the ~150 schools in the US that produce PhD students and therefore not included in the study.  Of course, the Harvard numbers have similar lacunae. 

I don't think any of this detracts from the overall point: as you go down the tiers of schools (such as they are), your job prospects get exponentially worse. And Vandy isn't in the first, second, or even third tier.

Edited February 2, 2018 by telkanuru

[psstein]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:22 PM, telkanuru said:

Ah, I see the issue. The University of North Alabama, Nashville State Community College, and the College of Charleston are not among the ~150 schools in the US that produce PhD students and therefore not included in the study.  Of course, the Harvard numbers have similar lacunae. 

I don't think any of this detracts from the overall point: as you go down the tiers of schools (such as they are), your job prospects get exponentially worse. And Vandy isn't in the first, second, or even third tier.

I generally agree, but I think there's something to be said for non-R1 TT placements. It's not as though they're in adjunct hell or living hand to mouth.