MA before PhD?

[derHistoriker]

Recently since all my applications have been sent in, I've been thinking a lot about my chances of getting into a PhD program. I am currently a senior undergraduate student, and I've been wondering whether it would be better to get a master's degree in history or public history (I've applied for both)? Would it give me a better chance of getting into a PhD program afterward? Also, I have applied for and been accepted to small state schools with masters programs. What is the perception of small state school's masters degrees in history? Are they less reputable or less impressive? Let me know.

I've applied to the PhD programs at the University of Minnesota, University of South Florida, Arizona State University, and Notre Dame (a reach).

[cr615]

I don't think the M.A credential necessarily improves your chances on its own. But I think going through an M.A will help you grow as a scholar and applicant. I felt pretty good about my applications, and got into my preferred program. I'm in my 1st semester, and already I have learned so much and improved as a reader, writer, thinker, etc., and think about how much better my applications could have been if I was applying at this point. 

So, if you don't get into your preferred PhD program and end up going M.A dont' go into it thinking that the M.A credential will be the difference maker on its own. Go into it with the mindset that the process of getting that M.A will make you a better applicant holistically. Your writing will improve. Perhaps you can retake the GRE with so much more practice reading. You will have an even clearer vision of what you want to study. You will have a new pool of recommenders that taught you at a higher level. 

 

[TMP]

You're in medieval history, judging from your profile, and getting into PhD programs will always be competitive.  You should spend  time going through this forum and get a sense of what generally makes for a competitive PhD applicant: usually languages, a focused area (but demonstration of flexibility), and a strong writing sample that shows your potential as a researcher and writer. You simply cannot predict your chances of getting into a PhD program.  

Take it from someone who took three cycles of getting into a PhD program with a MA in a highly competitive but small field like yours.

[dr. t]

18 hours ago, SFischer said:

Recently since all my applications have been sent in, I've been thinking a lot about my chances of getting into a PhD program. I am currently a senior undergraduate student, and I've been wondering whether it would be better to get a master's degree in history or public history (I've applied for both)? Would it give me a better chance of getting into a PhD program afterward? Also, I have applied for and been accepted to small state schools with masters programs. What is the perception of small state school's masters degrees in history? Are they less reputable or less impressive? Let me know.

I've applied to the PhD programs at the University of Minnesota, University of South Florida, Arizona State University, and Notre Dame (a reach).

An MA is only necessary if you have some aspect of your application you need to shore up - weak language skills, little independent research, bad freshman year grades. If you're not trying to fix one of these things, don't pay out money for an MA.

I would discourage you from USF or ASU. The premodern job market is particularly tough right now, and these schools will not be helpful there. 

Also, all your schools are reach schools. There's no such thing as a safe bet in PhD apps.

[derHistoriker]

11 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

An MA is only necessary if you have some aspect of your application you need to shore up - weak language skills, little independent research, bad freshman year grades. If you're not trying to fix one of these things, don't pay out money for an MA.

I would discourage you from USF or ASU. The premodern job market is particularly tough right now, and these schools will not be helpful there. 

Also, all your schools are reach schools. There's no such thing as a safe bet in PhD apps.

Considering the fact that I have little to no language skills, a master's degree might serve me well. I'm applying to the Master's program at USF, not the PhD, sorry for the confusion. I am a aware that their PhD program is relatively new (or doesn't have many graduates) and doesn't have as much prestige. However, they do offer Latin at USF which would help me tremendously in a Masters program for future PhD applications.

I know that they all are a reach, but I was singling out Notre Dame as being extremely far out there for me.

[khigh]

10 minutes ago, SFischer said:

Considering the fact that I have little to no language skills, a master's degree might serve me well. I'm applying to the Master's program at USF, not the PhD, sorry for the confusion. I am a aware that their PhD program is relatively new (or doesn't have many graduates) and doesn't have as much prestige. However, they do offer Latin at USF which would help me tremendously in a Masters program for future PhD applications.

I know that they all are a reach, but I was singling out Notre Dame as being extremely far out there for me.

I do know, after talking to Dr Reyerson, that your languages need to be strong before the PhD at the U. Latin for medievalists is a must if you want to work with her.  It's one of the reasons I minored in languages in undergrad.

Edited December 15, 2017 by khigh

[derHistoriker]

1 minute ago, khigh said:

I do know, after talking to Dr Reyerson, that your languages need to be strong before the PhD. Latin for medievalists is a must if you want to work with her.  It's one of the reasons I minored in languages in undergrad.

I know, she told me that too. Unfortunately when I started undergrad I was a Social Studies Ed major and once I realized I wanted to go to History grad school it was too late to start language classes and graduate on time. Its a big reason why Minnesota isn't my only option and why I probably will go to a MA program first if I get rejected.

[khigh]

2 minutes ago, SFischer said:

I know, she told me that too. Unfortunately when I started undergrad I was a Social Studies Ed major and once I realized I wanted to go to History grad school it was too late to start language classes and graduate on time. Its a big reason why Minnesota isn't my only option and why I probably will go to a MA program first if I get rejected.

Social Studies Ed was my major for all of 2 weeks.  I observed a high school class, decided it wasn't for me, and changed my major.  There is also a big push in Oklahoma, where I'm from, for SSE majors to also learn how to coach a sport. No thank you. Have you looked at summer programs on H-net? I don't know about Latin, but I know other languages have schools.  Or maybe applying to a summer Latin program in Italy? A lot of those programs have funding and Italy is a beautiful country.

[derHistoriker]

3 minutes ago, khigh said:

Social Studies Ed was my major for all of 2 weeks.  I observed a high school class, decided it wasn't for me, and changed my major.  There is also a big push in Oklahoma, where I'm from, for SSE majors to also learn how to coach a sport. No thank you. Have you looked at summer programs on H-net? I don't know about Latin, but I know other languages have schools.  Or maybe applying to a summer Latin program in Italy? A lot of those programs have funding and Italy is a beautiful country.

I was SSE for all of my freshman year and I did one clinical experience and was done with it. I've looked online a little bit for Latin courses and haven't come up with much. I'll have to look into summer programs because I'd love to do that if I had some funding. 

[khigh]

2 minutes ago, SFischer said:

I was SSE for all of my freshman year and I did one clinical experience and was done with it. I've looked online a little bit for Latin courses and haven't come up with much. I'll have to look into summer programs because I'd love to do that if I had some funding. 

The American Academy in Rome has one that's supposed to be really good.  I loved Rome when I visited last year.

[dr. t]

An MA is, as I said, a place to shore up weak language skills. It's not a place to acquire them. 

Modernists/Americanists usually get away without serious language study, but proficiency in multiple languages is the key to the production of quality scholarship on medieval Europe. Competent reading ability in Latin, French, and German is a minimum realistic requirement. Unless you're a savant, that means at minimum 3-4 years of Latin and a 1 year reading-focused program in the other two. And although there are programs that do not mandate language study for their premodern applicants, I would strongly encourage you not to apply to them - they are more interested in you as a way to get all their classes taught than as a developing scholar.

If you currently have "little to no" language skills, then I would discourage you from applying to any graduate-level program until you spend the time to acquire them. Until you do, you will not be able to access either the primary or secondary literature in order to create a strong research project, or even a passable writing sample.

To put it another way, if you don't have competent Latin, you haven't yet actually done medieval history; why do you want to go to grad school for it?

[astroid88]

23 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

An MA is, as I said, a place to shore up weak language skills. It's not a place to acquire them. 

Agree with your post except this part. I can't speak to medieval programs, but there are a lot of language-oriented master's programs designed to get their students from A1 to the B range, which is usually the level need to do reading research. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by astroid88

[dr. t]

13 minutes ago, astroid88 said:

Agree with your post except this part. I can't speak to medieval programs, but there are a lot of language-oriented master's programs designed to get their students from A1 to the B range, which is usually the level need to do reading research. 

If you need to do this for one language, that's acceptable - you can nail a reading proficiency in French in a year with little difficulty. To do it with three, or with languages which are harder to learn (Latin, German)? No.

The broader point is that it's not really cost-effective to do language training at an MA program, since taking a language course will always be at the expense of doing higher level coursework. Better to spend $1k and do that bit at community college.

[khigh]

40 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

If you need to do this for one language, that's acceptable - you can nail a reading proficiency in French in a year with little difficulty. To do it with three, or with languages which are harder to learn (Latin, German)? No.

The broader point is that it's not really cost-effective to do language training at an MA program, since taking a language course will always be at the expense of doing higher level coursework. Better to spend $1k and do that bit at community college.

If we expressed an interest in grad school while in undergrad, it was highly suggested we minor in foreign languages.  Once you learn your first language in a language group, the rest are easier.  I did have 4 years of German before undergrad, though, so I think that helped.  I took German, French, and Dutch at the collegiate level for 3 years, which made Afrikaans and Frisian easy (I know, they're dialects, but don't tell them that), and Italian is coming pretty easily with the French background.

I love your suggestion of doing language courses at a community college.  That's something I would have never thought to suggest.  It's probably the best and least expensive track for languages. I wish they would push history majors in undergrad more towards languages as a minor than they currently do. 

[psstein]

Unless you have some glaring flaws in your application, then you shouldn't bother with a MA before you apply to PhDs. Many MA/PhD programs require that you complete a certain number of credits within their program and others insist that you start over.

It depends what you mean by a "small state school." I went to a very well-known "small state school" for my undergrad and doubt having a MA from that institution would hurt. Having a MA from a third-rate university would not be a good idea, though.