Chances for an Outsider

[JDD]

Hey there - I recently came across this forum in my research for which MDiv program would be best for me. After reading tons of threads about how differing backgrounds stack up in admissions and financial aid, I began to question where my educational background put me in terms of rank.

To provide some context, I graduated from a large state school with an average reputation. I earned a Bachelor of Science in Public Relations and Mass communication (Political Science Minor) with a 4.0 GPA. I also was able to graduate top of my class in 3 years instead of 4 - again, not sure if that helps at all. I was in leadership positions in multiple clubs, held various positions in school organizations, and even did some writing tutoring for the lab on campus. However, none of my experience or past credentials relate directly to the humanities and, more specifically, religious/theological studies.I have LoRs from two pastors and two professors - both of which are directors of their department. 

My current list of schools includes: Yale, Princeton, Duke, and Fuller. 

So how do I stack up? Anything I can do between now and the app deadline to better my chances of acceptance and (more importantly) financial aid?

[Rabbit Run]

I wouldn't worry. M.Div programs are meant to include people from diverse backgrounds, not just religion or theology majors, since its a professional degree. II'd highlight your leadership experience and be clear about yoursense of vocation (in other words, why do you want to pursue this degree?) in your documents. 

[xypathos]

Yea, you're going to be fine!

I had classmates from departments like music, public communications, exercise science, etc. Many of them had never even taken an undergraduate Religious Studies course and were phenomenal M.Div students.

Play up your leadership experience, that'll be a big boost.

Are you a recent grad? The median age at Yale, Princeton, and Duke averages mid to late 20s with some dips into the 30s sometimes. I don't know about Fuller. Vanderbilt is another school with a low median age if you're wanting to have plenty of opportunities to socialize.

Speaking of Fuller, it's a bit of an outlier amidst the other three. Are you looking for a more evangelical school? Even in general, what are you hoping that your M.Div does for you? How do you want to develop, what kind of doors to you want it/you to open, etc?

If you're applying this year have you taken the GRE? If so, I'd add Harvard. If not, I wouldn't spend the time and money to take it for one school. There's Chicago too if you want to apply there but they only accept about 12-15 students, granted 30 apply on a busy year. So, something to consider.

If you're Presbyterian you'll be a strong candidate for PTS' 100% tuition scholarship. If not, I imagine you'll land close to the 80% one which is still very good.

[JDD]

Wow. Thanks for the encouraging feedback.

@Rabbit Run In the long term I'd like to teach at either a Christian high school or a secular university. Of course, this might change depending on my experience at seminary, but I've spent a lot of time discussing this aspiration throughout my application. Any way to increase my chances of getting tuition covered at 100%? 

@xypathos

Thanks for the support! It's encouraging to hear that you saw a diversity in background during your masters. I hope you don't mind if I ask where you attended? I'm still forming an opinion on how each program differs from the others.

I graduated in spring of 2015 - not sure if that is considered recent. In the mean time I've held a single, corporate job in marketing.

As for Fuller - I chose it because it most aligns with my current beliefs. I come from a strong evangelical background but am eager to learn more about other traditions. I would be happy to attend Fuller, but I'm not convinced that I'd get the academic backbone necessary to teach in a university. Moreover, I don't know if their financial aid is as generous as PTS or YDS.

Sadly, I'm not Presbyterian. Does that guarantee I can't get a 100% scholarship for PTS?

Edited December 20, 2017 by JDD

[Rabbit Run]

11 minutes ago, JDD said:

Sadly, I'm not Presbyterian. Does that guarantee I can't get a 100% scholarship for PTS?

No. PC(USA) students get 100%, but they do have some 100% scholarships for students from other denominations. Otherwise you'll probably get 80%

[JDD]

@Rabbit Run Maybe I'm splitting hairs here - but how Presbyterian do you have to be? Are you required to be an active member of your local congregation?

[xypathos]

48 minutes ago, JDD said:

@Rabbit Run Maybe I'm splitting hairs here - but how Presbyterian do you have to be? Are you required to be an active member of your local congregation?

Yes and it's only for PCUSA churches, I do believe. So if you're say PCA, Cumberland Pres, etc., then there's nothing guaranteed. I do know in the case of 100% for PCUSA members, you are required to provide documentation, or at least you were.

I attended Vanderbilt which had a wide array of students.

I also came across a wide array of students at Yale and Union that hadn't taken religious studies courses.

I'm presently at a small though decently known Catholic school for a PhD but am pursuing a transfer this application cycle.

[xypathos]

1 hour ago, JDD said:

As for Fuller - I chose it because it most aligns with my current beliefs. I come from a strong evangelical background but am eager to learn more about other traditions. I would be happy to attend Fuller, but I'm not convinced that I'd get the academic backbone necessary to teach in a university. Moreover, I don't know if their financial aid is as generous as PTS or YDS.

Okay, that explains Fuller then. I don't know about Fuller's financial aid capacity but there was a guy on here that did a M* there and said that Fuller's aid was generally in the 50-75% range.

We hear, on here, often about students that did an M.Div at an evangelical school and end up having to do a MTS or another degree at a more mainline school in order to transition to a PhD. If that represents the truth for most applicants, I don't know. Should you find yourself at Duke or Yale and do well then you'll be pretty well set for PhD applications.

I don't really operate in evangelical circles so I can't say much, honestly. Evangelical mainline schools tend to be okay with hiring outside their circles whereas conservative evangelical schools often hire their own graduates or those from a neighboring school with shared theological outlooks. Often, they don't even openly advertise and pursue their own candidates.

[JDD]

@xypathos Thanks for the insight. It sounds like there is still a chance for 100% at PTS and YDS. I've never heard of anyone being offered 100% from Duke, but that is a stretch for even the best students, to my understanding.

BTW, best of luck with your transfer.

[Phd.Hopeful]

@JDD I'm a long time lurker on the forums here but I wanted to give my two cents as I've come from a similar situation. Last year I made the transition from an M.Div at an evangelical seminary to a T1 PhD program and I also came from a non-religious undergrad. My encouragement would be to not discount evangelical seminaries--especially strong ones like Fuller--if that is a church tradition you are part of. The transition into a good PhD program is possible and I know others in my year who also were accepted. I'm not saying its easy (and many do take a one-year MTS) but its certainly doable. I love the doctoral program I'm in at the moment (which is mainline and academically focused) but I'm incredibly grateful for my time at an evangelical seminary. Especially as I came from a non-religious undergrad and had spent a few years in the corporate world, my time as seminary was foundational for me in my formation as a disciple, helping me to develop strong convictions about what I believe and gaining some understanding of what I feel called to. Good seminaries like Fuller will introduce you to a broad range of scholarship across the Christian tradition but I found my time to be a grounding experience as well.

Different seminaries help form and shape your faith in different ways so I would advise not to make the decision about seminaries purely based on financial factors (although I recognize that is also important). If you can, I would suggest visiting some of these seminaries as you will get a much better feel for the environment, course of study etc. than you ever can through websites. Its what tipped the decision for me.

[marXian]

20 hours ago, JDD said:

As for Fuller - I chose it because it most aligns with my current beliefs. I come from a strong evangelical background but am eager to learn more about other traditions. I would be happy to attend Fuller, but I'm not convinced that I'd get the academic backbone necessary to teach in a university. Moreover, I don't know if their financial aid is as generous as PTS or YDS.

 

19 hours ago, xypathos said:

Okay, that explains Fuller then. I don't know about Fuller's financial aid capacity but there was a guy on here that did a M* there and said that Fuller's aid was generally in the 50-75% range.

 

I was at Fuller 2009-12, and I can safely say that virtually no one gets 50-75% aid. My "scholarship" was about $600 a quarter, which does not even cover the cost of one unit. The vast majority of people take out significant student loans to pay for Fuller, and Fuller is really expensive.

@JDD your intuition that Fuller is not as academically rigorous as other places, e.g. Yale, is right. It's even more true I think since Mark Labberton became the president, i.e. the programs are much more ministry-focused. But it's certainly possible to get into a good program from Fuller if you connect with the right professors, take PhD seminars, etc. You don't need your seminary to give you the academic training necessary to teach--that's what your PhD program is for. You need it to give you the training to get into that program, and Fuller can do that. But it's certainly the case that places like YDS, HDS, etc. can do it better. If I could do things over again, I definitely would have applied to places like YDS and HDS. I didn't because I didn't know what I was doing when I applied.

[JDD]

@PhD Hopeful Thanks for the feedback - fuller certainly isn't off the list. I have a wonderful conversation with their admissions director where he confirmed that they do offer a handful of full-ride scholarships. Perhaps things have changed since @marXian attended, regarding scholarships. Still - I don't think anyone can really count on receiving an acceptance letter, much less a huge scholarship, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

Can you speak to what financial aid looks like for most Ph.D programs?

[menge]

14 minutes ago, JDD said:

@PhD Hopeful Thanks for the feedback - fuller certainly isn't off the list. I have a wonderful conversation with their admissions director where he confirmed that they do offer a handful of full-ride scholarships. Perhaps things have changed since @marXian attended, regarding scholarships. Still - I don't think anyone can really count on receiving an acceptance letter, much less a huge scholarship, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

Can you speak to what financial aid looks like for most Ph.D programs?

The only PhD worth doing is one that is completely funded. The best programs will cover all your tuition, give you health insurance, a stipend of $20-$30k, and offer some money for travel to conferences/research/etc. Some other programs will be similar, but offer less by way of the stipend (state schools tend to run lower). Depending on where you go and what your offer looks like, you may or may not be required to teach as art of your assistantship. And then there are other fellowships which you might qualify for based on GPA's, GRE's, etc. 

[JDD]

@menge Wow - I had no idea that was the case. I supposed that partially explains why the best PhD programs are so competitive. What do you believe most contributed to the success of your PHD applications?

[menge]

23 hours ago, JDD said:

@menge Wow - I had no idea that was the case. I supposed that partially explains why the best PhD programs are so competitive. What do you believe most contributed to the success of your PHD applications?

The biggest thing that helped me was that I had met my potential advisors, they had seen me present work at conferences, and our interests aligned very well. The two schools I had this in place I was accepted. That said, I had good e-mail interactions with other potential advisors which got me at least thoroughly considered at a couple of other schools, though the didn't end up in acceptances for various reasons (not enough faculty to support my interests, etc.). Beside establishing contact with an advisor, the other important things (which you will read elsewhere as well): do well on the GRE (this helped get me a University wide fellowship in my current program which means more $$), make sure you apply to schools with people that can support your interests (the so-called "fit" metric), and polish the heck out of your writing sample and personal statements. If you are able, have a faculty member at the school you want to get in to read your personal statement and offer suggestions. They will know what their committee is looking for. Most of this stuff you can read more about in old threads on this forum.