rageofanath

Whew, that's complicated. I guess the short version is that I don't regret it, but I sometimes rather seriously wonder where I would be now if I had jumped in earlier, and am occasionally a little jealous of alternate-universe me that already has a master's. However, there are still a few problems with that alternate-me; they'd be able to take higher-wage adjuncting jobs with their degree, but would have more debt from the master's, which most likely wouldn't have been funded. There's also no guarantee they wouldn't be in the same place I am now. I straddle two very disparate disciplines, and up until now have been pro in one and amateur in the other. Working towards a grad degree is working towards being pro in both disciplines, moving toward some kind of hybrid grey area. So maybe I'd have a masters in the one I've already got a bachelors' in, but would still want the masters or phd in the second field. Taking the time to decide I wanted to take a nosedive into the grey area rather than dabble has been worth it. Maybe I'd resent the higher level of debt from the grad degree that may or may not be "needed" : some of my classmates haven't got a grad degree yet and have been moving along just fine in their careers. Alternatively, some of my classmates who didn't skip a year or two are in the stages of wrapping up a PhD now and have yet to experience life outside academia and are a bit... scared... at the prospect of graduating for good. I haven't been particularly excited by programs in the field I've already got my bachelors' in, so its hard to say if I would have found a program I liked by now if I was looking harder. I also have found myself a little "trapped" by a job that I REALLY LIKE and don't want to leave, so if I do an advanced degree I want to do it in a pretty close region to home so that I can keep the job (there are NO work from home or mobile options). I also don't want my current relationship to become a LDR for a while to go to school, especially since we've talked rather seriously about moving / buying in the area. That's kind of what I mean about roots suddenly being harder to tear up than expected. I value both these things pretty highly and things would be very different if I had either gone straight through or went back after only one year. Maybe good different, maybe not. I like where I am now, either way. The other advantage, is that currently I'm a better student than I've ever been. I was always a good student (summa cum laude /deans list blah blah all that overachiever junk), but its unbelievable to me how much BETTER I am at it now that I'm applying new skills from outside academia, incredible level of time management, and how much better I am at figuring out what is worth spending my energy on... as well as a more realistic perspective on things like homework, tests, asking questions, and talking to the professor/TAs. I've heard similar things from people who've taken time off. And this alone does make me feel a bit better about the decision since I'm the sort of person who wants to get 110% out of any experience. I do recommend trying something outside academia -- it doesn't have to be a job. It could be a (non-academia based) research program, some travel time, volunteering, something totally out there like WWOOFing, whatever. I have always had a foot firmly planted in academia -- the job I like is in a university, I teach summer classes -- but I've done things like residencies to the arctic and 'regular' jobs and met people that expanded my idea of what is possible and what I want. So, a lot of what I'm doing is because of the time I spent outside academia and the people I met there. It's also a good idea to go to some professional conferences as soon as possible, and you can sit in on lectures about research you think sounds interesting, talk with people in potential fields to learn more about the work they do, get recommendations for papers to read or people to email or schools to apply for, etc. You can also talk to people in industry there to see more options for careers and how to get there -- especially if you go to one for any biotech field since they're well represented with industry positions. The people at a conference can probably give you more directed advice than we can as well. The conferences I've been to have been well worth the money, especially if you can use your current-student status to get a student rate. So yeah, I feel a lot of things about it, and I imagine things will be complicated for you too since you've got so many options for potential fields. Hopefully these thoughts give you something to think about. I think TakuruK is spot on with no-gap advice, and it sounds like you could definitely do it and get into a good program if you want to. But "Do you WANT to?" and "Do you want to RIGHT NOW" are the important questions.

I skipped several years between undergrad and even THINKING about grad school and it was both good and bad. Good in the sense that leaving undergrad, I was pretty lost as to what kind of program I even wanted to look for. My senior year was extremely busy and stressful and I had no time to even think about grad school, much less make headway on researching and applying to programs. I feel that if I had rushed into a program at that point I may have made a mistake, as looking back now I can see that my career path as a whole is unconventional so I am very happy I didn't jump into a grad program. I also had student debt that I wanted to start paying off, and wanted to get a sense of what life was like outside of academia so by the time I got back into it, I'd be actually interested in doing things like going to class and studying, which I was NOT anymore. Now, I have experienced a lot of 'real world' stuff so academia is more 'in context' for me, and I'm a better student than ever before because of the perspective I gained. I also taught a bit so getting experience from the other side of the lectern where I was not just a TA but 100% in charge of everything from creating a syllabus to arranging field trips helped me to re-evaluate the student experience and how to approach academic problems. But the bad... I really only intended to take maybe 3 years off, max. I'm currently on year 5 and just started the application / search / research / GRE process, so it will probably be 6-8 years after undergrad before I start when all is said and done, and by the time I complete a degree I will be over 30. This pushes things back a lot, and keep in mind the short time off could end up being a lot longer due to all kinds of life circumstances. It can be harder to get back into 'student mode'. You might end up putting down roots that are harder to tear up than you think, and not WANT to move across the country or to another continent for school. Any life landmarks you want to hit (marriage, house, dream job, kids, dog, 401k, picket fence) will get pushed around with the delay. Not to say some of those things can't happen in grad school or around it, just not everyone wants to juggle those things, so you have to decide what's important to you and what you can and want to handle. This is especially true if grad school for you is a PhD and not a Masters'. Some people hit the point I have and don't go back. Keep in mind that "a year off" may end up being more than that.

A degree is definitely the easiest way to fulfill the course requirements, generally speaking. It is sometimes harder to be non-traditional, but no one said any of this would be easy, for any of us. Just challenging in different ways. I actually just checked the BBS admissions requirements too and they do require a BS. Very interesting how departments vary, and how much variety there is in bio. If I was going for what you are, your original post would probably be absolutely correct. Since you're already at Harvard, we might have run into each other already even, despite being in different departments! Did you get the free Ben and Jerry's in front of the science center a few weeks back, haha? Thanks, good luck in your program too.

No, there is not "somebody" who is "telling me" things. I'm collaborating with several people to achieve this goal. A traditional path isn't the only way to achieve a goal, and plenty of non-traditional students out there who don't follow linear "traditional" routes, or course correct in late 20s with unconventional methods. I know a quite a few. 'Possible' isn't really a factor in my choice here, since even if I fail I will have gained important strides toward my ultimate goals and will continue to work in with my advisor in the non-conventional position I currently have. "Student" is primarily an administrative title, in my case, but a very desirable and convenient one. Just being accepted isn't a guarantee that anyone will achieve the degree so, one step at a time. Either way, the information provided in this short bio is clearly not really enough information for random people to assess my situation. So this has been very helpful as it has made very apparent that a very well written and explanatory letter of intent is going to be the most important part of my application after recommendations. Thanks. Edit; Also double checked the admissions requirements. No Bio/Related BS/MS degree is listed as a requirement, just coursework, which I'm currently fulfilling.

That's what I'm doing now. I'm not just some lab tech, I'm doing research that is becoming more independent with every skill I acquire. I can't afford a Master's since usually they aren't funded, I'd need similar credentials for admissions, and my intended program is masters+PhD anyway. The difference is I'm doing this work independently rather than through a program, but still need to work up an admissions profile that has all the dotted i's and crossed t's people who take a traditional route have. So that's why I'm doing research to get a few papers out instead under the person who is my intended advisor. I won't be able to jump the admissions hurdle until at least one of the papers is out and there's a subject specific GRE score to 'prove' I have 'actually' learned everything I have actually learned, on top of being vouched for with strong letters of recommendation, which I can get easily. The big question is whether that's this year or next year, so I put my profile up in the thread anyway. From what I have seen from your previous answers, I think we're doing very different kinds of research, with very different requirements and kinds of skills + knowledge needed. I'm not looking at the sorts of programs you are (congrats by the way!!!! ) so our application needs are probably quite different, but I appreciate that you took the time to look at my profile and make a comment. Thanks.

OH MAN do I have this problem too, especially at the uni that I adjunct at during summers... that I also graduated from. I have some old classmates that try to get me to trash talk the department or professors and its like, heeeyyy they're technically my co-workers now. Maybe we didn't see eye to eye when I was a student but now, its just awkward. My partner has also had this problem both as a grad student/TA and now as an adjunct. Sometimes from undergrads who, probably don't know better, but sometimes from undergrads who are adult students / late 20s early 30s that SHOULD.

Yeah that's the problem I'm running into. People need a piece of paper to "prove" you know something. It's going to take some time to grab all the pieces of paper and get the t's crossed and i's dotted to make the higher-ups happy. And I agree, I'm not optimistic that I'll have done enough in time for this year.

I mostly get bouts of 'regular' clinical depression, but the seasons affect me a lot. I read about the summer SAD symptoms last fall and they fit. I'm going to keep a close watch this summer now that I know what to look for, but last year I was trying some more general self-care and found a few useful things. Symptom: appetite loss I really don't eat a lot during the summer, especially as it gets hot and humid. That's a real problem for depression since less food = more depression symptoms guaranteed. Last summer I tried to find "light" foods that I could eat and get my nutrients without getting nausea, or that wouldn't be too hard to force myself to eat -- but also things that are easy to prepare so that I wouldn't fall into the "cooking is too hard because hard / eat something junk / don't get good nutrition / depression / cooking is too hard because depression" cycle So I ate a lot of salads, fish, fruit, and eggs. Poaching a fish is really simple, I just put salt and lemon on something super mild like haddock or cod (real cheap where I live) then put it on top of a salad. The other thing I ate a lot of was chicken salad, I got a good waldorf chicken salad recipe so its mostly apples + chicken with cranberries. I could prepare a huge bowl and it would last the week basically. The other thing I found that works is liquid calories. I can always drink, but I can't always eat, so loading up what I drink with fruit, protein, milk, etc, helps counteract the fact that a normal breakfast (... lunch... and dinner) is completely repulsive in the summer. Symptom: weight loss I'm underweight, so this is a big problem (can't afford to lose more than ~1-2 lb) and it compounds with appetite loss. Last summer I tried to work out more, I went to the gym to lift weights, then drank a full glass of lactose free chocolate milk right after. That stimulated my appetite enough that I didn't lose a lot, mostly compensated for by increased muscle mass. I had a bad winter and didn't work out (too lethargic + hibernation/sad mode + gre prep) so I'm going to start that up again now that finals are over. Symptom: sleep problems UGH still working on this one. I'm just getting into that stage now. I can feel my 'natural' sleep cycle creeping later as it stays light longer. I haven't found a solution to this one except to just wait it out or try to make those hours productive by reading or artmaking. I've also gotten good at figuring out which energy drinks don't make me sick. Anyone who has insight on this... Symptom: regular depression symptoms + anxiety Getting into nature as much as possible helps. I also tend to throw myself into work to fight the symptoms so I usually make a few good art pieces / writings and teach adjunct summer classes. Adjuncting in the summer is GREAT. The kids are always good and I get inspired to go home and work, which staves off the crushing hopelessness and anxiety and replaces it with good nice things. I hope this helps you in the summer, too. The biggest problem I have is commuting into the summer classes since tired driving is pretty dangerous, hopefully I can get afternoon classes set up this year. So yeah, that's based on last years' "I want to feel better in the summer" experiments, this year I'll be targeting it even more towards SAD symptoms.

I'm not sure if my application will be ready by the end of this year, or next, but here's where I'm at. I'm kind of a... unconventional case. Undergrad Institution: Art schoolMajor(s): BFA Illustration / Fine ArtsMinor(s): Art HistoryOverall GPA: 3.88Position in Class: Top 10%Type of Student: Domestic white femaleGRE Scores (revised/old version):Q: 160V: 166W: 4.5B: currently studying for it, I'm going to need it.Research Experience: Working on my first "real" year of biology research now at Harvard (where I work), in the lab I want to apply to. I'm learning relevant software and techniques and working with current students and postdocs to revise some phylogenic trees. There should be some nice posters and papers once the data is collected. My application date will probably be based in part on this...Awards/Honors/Recognitions: Aside from the usual high-gpa 'dean's list' stuff, my awards/honors are all in arts. I have done residencies on tall ships, been accepted to juried shows, etc. My artwork is all biological/science/anatomy based. I can do more technical scientific illustrations, its not all floofy conceptual "pretty" stuff. Pertinent Activities or Jobs: 6 years in a natural history museum as an aide in collections. Job duties include research-relevant things such as IDing specimens, learning taxonomy. I've done a little fieldwork (not much yet) both organized day trips and locally on my own time. I've taught summer classes at another university for 4 years, though in art.Special Bonus Points: I've taken 3 biology classes at Harvard so far, 2 a few years ago where I applied for Special Student status and received it, and one this year due to my employment status. 4.0 so far, waiting on this semester's class but unless I completely bombed my final I'm expecting an A. Planning to take another class in the fall; these classes are technically through GSAS for grad credit. Aside from a recommendation from the curator (who I also had as a professor), I consider this the most important part of my application. I'm trying to figure out who else to ask for recommendations from, but I'm waiting to take subject GRE before I worry too much.Any Other Info That Shows Up On Your App and Might Matter: I've done some unconventional stuff in the time after undergrad, aside from random art stuff I've done things like manage a game store and teach myself taxidermy + specimen prep for all kinds of specimens (tanning, bone cleaning, insect mounting, wet preservation, etc). I have a lot of 'hands on' skills like woodworking, moldmaking, some degree of fabrication. I know most digital art programs which has been helpful as I learn to image specimens. Applying to Where:Harvard-OEB. If it doesn't work, I'll try again until it does. Or find someone else to work under who is studying my taxonomic group, it's not particularly common so there are only a few out there. Or apply for a MFA instead, but I have been looking around at MFA programs and haven't been particularly excited. My assumption currently is that as an unconventional student, I have a very low chance especially for Harvard, so I'm working hard to get a good subject score, take classes whenever possible, and get research done to improve those chances.

When I started studying quant I was scoring around 148 on practices, got 160 on test day. I couldn't afford a Magoosh subscription or more than one practice book. BUT I'm an autodidact so if you're not, you may want to shell out for GRE focused tutoring. I outlined in this thread all the books I used for practice: My #1 suggestion is to go to your local library and see what they have book-wise, as well as if you can order any in from other libraries. The more different sources you use the better. My #2 suggestion is to find a place outside of your house that you study well at and go there for a few hours a day every day off you have. If you want to score really well then GRE prep has to be your second job during your preparation time, possibly at the expense of most of your leisure time. I basically lived at my local cafe from December-March and spent basically all my extra pay on tea and sandwiches during studying. The baristas knew what I was up to and would ask how studying was going sometimes. Sometimes on weekends I would be there longer than their shifts! Finally #3 : A lot of the problems are 'tricks' not math, with a long time-eating method or a shortcut. There's very little actual math you need to know, you mostly just have to know the tricks (ie is that complicated figure actually ... a 45-45-90 triangle?! Yes it is!) and make sure you have a few common formulas memorized; geometry, exponent/fraction rules, properties of 1 and 0, times tables up to 12, etc. I made flash cards with the basic rules I'd need to know and was able to write all 2D geometry formulas on demand. (The one time they gave me a sphere they gave me the formula. The question wasn't really about the sphere, they just wanted me to freak out about the fact it WAS a sphere and get distracted from what they were really asking!). And I found a strategy that worked for me: "mark" and skip all the quant comps and graphs until the end. One reason I was scoring badly on paper practice tests I'd get caught up on comparison problems that the answer was D (cannot be determined) and waste all my time trying every possible solution to PROVE it couldn't be determined, or I'd spend lots of time scratching my head over misleading charts. Meanwhile I'd get questions 16-20 correct, but couldn't count them towards my score since I went over time. That may not be your ideal strategy so think about what questions you find quick and easy, and what questions you spend more time on, and don't be afraid to click a random answer, mark it, and hit next, to go back later. You only have 1.75 min per problem. Also once I started feeling confident, everytime I did a problem set I did it to a stopwatch and calculated how long I took per problem with a goal of 1.6 min/problem to give myself some padding. Good luck, quant is tough if you didn't do a STEM undergrad... which I didn't. :|

Actually I got a few 3rd root questions on the GRE, and they were in different sections so they couldn't have all been "research" questions. My last math class was high school precalc in 2006 so I went from diagnostic tests giving me 148 to getting a 160 (something like 76%?) a few weeks ago. I did a lot of prep -- basically nothing but math prep for about 3 months. I also couldn't afford more than one book so I had to deal with what the local library had. I spent $20 on test prep. As far as accuracy, it's hard to say which books were the most accurate. For me it was volume of math problems in general and learning "tricks" to shorthand some of the problem types, as well as saving all the quant comp and graph questions for last since they're easy to get into a calculating rut and waste time. (especially if the answer is D on a quant comp and you don't see it right away) So I used: Princeton: The math problems are SUPER easy compared to the ETS stuff but if you're not scoring high right now its a good first book. I used their "average pie" on the test multiple times and it's a really good trick to see the solution fast. I also used some of their estimating, if you're not writing and just thinking - move on, and "which answer should I plug in first" strategy suggestions among a few others. Their Math Workout was the only book I purchased, and I bought it on impulse the day I decided I'd take the test and didn't research it versus its competitors. I got the whole "general" book from the library and its a lot of the same ; a bit too easy but good intro material if you weren't a STEM major. Barrons: Not a huge fan but it was useful to just get the extra practice. It was harder than Princeton but easier than ETS + GRE in general. Peterson: Did one problem set and returned it, happy I didn't pay for it. I don't know how accurate the questions are but they don't do a good job explaining how they got their solutions, especially for someone who was trying to relearn stuff like "dividing fractions." Magoosh: Loved the few practice problems they let you do for free, seemed pretty accurate, but I couldn't afford the $100 season pass. Khan Academy: The ETS site links Khan Academy with the "topics covered" page. I used it to practice my basic arithmetic / algebra, memorize geometry formulas, and practice combinations and permutations. It's not accurate at all to GRE questions since it doesn't even try to mimic them, but for brushing up on questions like "find the area and/or perimeter of this fairly straightforward geometric figure" its excellent. It was easier for me to practice this stuff outside of GRE context since Khan Academy doesn't try to trick you and hide that its actually a 45-45-90 triangle. So you can practice just the math. I started this after I finished all the problems in the Princeton book so I skipped any section that wasn't relevant or was going into more detail than necessary. Kaplan: Signed up for their free practice test (ie sales pitch). Not accurate. There was a significantly higher percentage of the "hard / rare" problems like combinatorics. On the GRE I only saw a handful. I didn't do that well on their practice test but I had done enough prep by that time to see that the test they gave was not representative. ETS: Everyone was saying "if you want to know what's on the test, go straight to the source", so I did, but not until the end. The ETS book is awful at explaining anything but accurate in terms of difficulty. I wouldn't recommend this book to learn from if you haven't had math in a while, but I would recommend it if you're scaling up the difficulty. There's a lot of stuff in there that I didn't see on the test, but its hard to say what they put in year after year. I also found the practice tests harder than the real test, I was scoring 155-158 usually... even got 152 on one of the powerprep practices. Despite that I got my highest score on test day. I borrowed this book from a friend who was going to take the GRE but decided against it, but it might have been worth paying for if I had to. Manhattan: Couldn't afford it, library didn't have one. Can't comment on how good they are, but not a huge fan of the 6 volume, $20/each thing, though from what I've read they sound worth it... and fairly accurate...? SAT/GMAT: I read this advice but didn't have a chance to try it out. I had more than enough GRE practice problems and general math. So yeah, I agree. No company really writes accurate questions. I think for me using a lot of companies helped because it meant that I wasn't stuck in one, inaccurate way of doing things. I also did a lot of basic math drilling that isn't strictly tied to GRE to try and decrease the amount of time per problem, since the goal is an average of 1.75 minutes / problem speed is #1. I actually aimed for 1.6 min/problem to give more wiggle room and allow plenty of time to click "review" and see what I had flagged. I think it's a big mistake to simply pick up one GRE prep book and be done with it, unless you've got a math based undergrad and just want to figure out the problem format.

Yeah. If the segment I've talked to is any indication of the rest of the undergraduate student body, a considerable portion spent their summers doing the sorts of things that look good on college applications. Volunteering, traveling, mission trips, clubs/sports, precollege / college level academic camps, etc etc etc. I think I've talked to a couple kids who had some kind of internship which, while much closer to the experience of having a summer job and invaluable experience, isn't necessarily breaking them out of their bubble. I've either yet to meet one that flipped burgers, or those that have are remarkably secretive about it. (This wasn't true at my undergrad where a lot of my peers had those sorts of jobs even during semesters and yeah, we openly talked about stuff like the relative merits of working McD's vs Burger King.) It's not like its all their fault or anything, a lot of them were sacrificed on the altar of academic achievement by their parents.

It depends. I've taken 3 courses so far as a non-degree seeking student at the university I work at, where I'm currently seeking admission. The first two were a few years ago as a "special student" program. It was made clear in the admissions material to the program that it is not considered a 'back door' into the school and you should not take classes through that program with the intent of applying for a degree after. At the time I was not seeking admission to the school so that was not my intention of taking the courses. I took the courses for credit and have a transcript as a result. However I am now working with one of the professors I took a course from. My admissions goal is to get into his lab as a grad student rather than the, well, "unusual" situation I'm in now. The third class I'm currently enrolled in as a tuition assistance student -- I am working at the university enough hours a week to qualify for low cost courses for credit, though its non-degree and not in a program. The tuition assistance program does not have this stipulation. In fact, it says in the pamphlet if you later get admitted, you can transfer previously taken credits toward your degree. It is hard to say whether this work will improve my admissions chances as a direct result of the grades I received, or if the admissions committee will look at the fact that I did special student a few years ago and have it look like I'm trying to use the trojan-horse method despite what the admissions packet for non-degree said, and have that count against me. I'm going to get at least one letter of recommendation from the coursework though, as well as a transcript with credit on it. If my current goals are not viable and I choose to apply to a different school, the letter, transcript, and credit gained will be very valuable. I can't say I recommend taking courses for non-credit, especially if you're paying for them. Auditing a course (taking it for noncredit) doesn't always require you to do everything the other students do, so it also is not proof of your current abilities and often doesn't mean anything to an admissions committee. Usually auditing students don't even get a grade. Taking non-degree courses with the goal of being admitted might hurt you if that school specifically advises that you don't do that, but it might help you if you're using it to gain contacts, network, and build a higher level transcript.

I am too, just started being active now after a few weeks of lurking.

My undergrad institution didn't have many grad students since its MFA was a low-residency MFA. So the grad students would only be on campus for a few weeks a year during winter and summer break. When they were on campus, it was an intensive time where they were doing their own thing. However in the few instances I interacted with them I did not feel much of a divide. They were very open and friendly, and since there were undergrads that also facilitated the program (like I documented some of it, and there were undergrad aides who helped in food preparation) they would talk to us about the school, the sorts of things they were learning, art in general. However right now I'm taking classes through a tuition assistance program in the university I work at and its a very, very different situation. It's a lot more like what other responders have mentioned. There's a huge power divide between grads and undergrads as the grads have a very significant grading power over the undergrads. In the instances where grads and undergrads are both taking the course, the grads and undergrads tend to cluster together on opposite ends of the room with very little crosstalk. Other tuition assistance or special student type people end up clustering with the grad students, and honestly, I do too. I have made efforts to reach out to the undergrads but sometimes it can be hard as the divide is caused from both sides. It's also an expensive school so there is a lot of entitlement and just flat out ignorance on the part of undergrads sometimes, so it can be difficult and offputting to participate in casual conversation. These are kids where most of them have never worked a summer job in their lives, much less tried to juggle a real job with school... or even know how many groceries minimum wage can buy. Sometimes hearing them talk about matters unrelated to class material is a bit... frustrating. So there's definitely a maturity and experience gap on top of everything else. I can imagine if my undergrad had cross registered courses the grad students would have rolled their eyes at me too.