Vulpix

I'm attending Harvard. I visited both Penn & Harvard this weekend and decided that even with an enormous scholarship, I have to go to Harvard, my impression was just too strong and positive. I haven't heard back about the FLAS yet. I know it wouldn't change my decision.

Yes, I'd agree on that front. That's why I think students also have local "real" internships . Just for IEP, I think that remote consultancy is important to a lot of students. OH one more thing about Penn, they said that a lot of them were hoping their internships would turn into extended consultancies after and then perhaps jobs. I had previously thought this would be uncommon, but they made it seem like they were all hoping for it. Many students were choosing to do the program in 1 year just so they would have the chance to extend their internship longer. The professor said there is almost always the opportunity to extend your internship time-wise, just that Penn's funding support for you will run out, and you won't be getting paid, so it's a personal choice. They had an alum there who had turned in internship into a job.

Another great component (that students mentioned both at Penn and HGSE, but was emphasized more at HGSE) was the idea of class projects being tied into real organizations. For example, in both schools, a professor will receive a request from an organization (like at Penn, a UN agency asked them to "make a peace curriculum for Sub-Saharan Africa"... not broad at all), and the students in the class create it and then submit it to the org. Same thing at HGSE, students got to create policy recommendations for Gaza and actually have those submitted and implemented. Some HGSE students were getting travel grants to go visit the countries where their classwork was being applied.

They said internships were typically 8-15 hours a week at HGSE, more or less depending on what your availability is. (And if you have work-study, you can get that stipend through your internship) Also, if you are taking 4 classes instead of 5, you have more time to dedicate to the internships. It seems like a lot of students had one local and one remote internships (such as working online for UNICEF in Bangkok/Mali/wherever, I heard a bunch). When I said concurrent I didn't mean literally at the same time, I just meant in the same semester they are taking classes, instead of a separate block of time like Penn's in the summer. Classes at HGSE vary in the times they meet, but many of them meet once a week for 3-4 hours, so you schedule your internship around classes, I assume. Also, with the remote internships, they added that often students tell the organizations what skills they want to be developing in the role, and build the work around that.

I added to my previous post if you didn't see Penn definitely has the more nurturing environment. It's a smaller program and it seems like students/faculty go out of their way to create a sense of community and support. Classes are much smaller (15-20) and it's a given that you will make relationships with professors. Also, you can hypothetically extend the program for 2 years. Cost of living is also very cheap in Philly. I also like that you can get a Global Human Rights certificate. Penn had this sort of weird inferiority complex going on. They kept insisting that they are an ivy league school (probably because they get confused with Penn State so much) and the majority of their general presentation was just talking about how you'd be surprised how great Philadelphia is and trying to convince us that Philly is good. While this is important, I thought there could be much more valuable things they could be telling me.

This may be crazy, but I ultimately decided to enroll at HGSE without knowing about the FLAS yet. Although I will hear back possibly in the next few days, I decided that even yes, that enormous sum, could not convince me to turn down the opportunities I saw at HGSE. I'm also in a fortunate position where I will not need to take out many loans at HGSE, so even though it was the difference between basically a free ride and a little bit of loans, I am making the decision to opt for the little bit of loans. A few months ago I would have thought this was foolish, but what I saw available to me at HGSE far outweighed what I saw at Penn! Also, I think Penn's biggest draw was the internship. I was discussing this with another guy who was also at both HGSE and Penn Open Houses this weekend for IED/IEP, and he was very undecided still, but he pointed out that the $15K+ difference in tuition between Penn and HGSE, and the $3300 stipend Penn affords you for the internship, basically means that you're paying $12K for an internship, whereas if you go to HGSE you'll just be back in the job force and actually earning money at the same time Penn's internship would be happening. Food for my thought, anyway. Most IEPers at HGSE had several internships going on, often with UNESCO and the same organizations that Penn promises to pair you with. They're just doing it concurrently with their classes, and can then go and get a job in June.

HGSE: Most affordable option (for me), amazing practical opportunities in the classroom, quality of faculty, unparalleled career services office and general resources/network of opportunity. Getting the chance to meet my future classmates at the Open House made me realize the amazing quality of people who will be there.

Yes, I'm going to Harvard. I thought Penn was VERY lovely and friendly, and I know I'd be happy there... but I think I will like HGSE even more! I was just really amazed by all the people.

People were half and half. Nobody looked out of place wearing jeans, so I'd say casual is just fine!

I got a wonderful vibe from current students and professors today, and Penn seems like a very nurturing place. The only weird part was when, completely unprovoked (no one had asked this), the professor said that Harvard has better career placement services and that Penn GSE has to work on that.

All right folks, I'm sure you won't be surprised by how much I ramble on in this. It's going to be organized as I took the notes during the sessions! HGSE Visit Overall Thoughts So when I said I was blown away, I really mean it. I think the key factor in this was meeting my future classmates. I knew this was important, but didn't anticipate how big of a factor it would become in my decision. They are truly a remarkable group. In the span of the 4 minutes of awkward mingling before the Open House started, I met an Emmy-award winning documentary filmmaker, 3 Peace Corps volunteers with amazing stories, and just, in general, one of the coolest group of people. I think it hit me when I mentioned (to a group of fellow IEP-ers) a non-fiction book about Rwanda that I had read, and EVERYONE had read it. I realized I was among people who were truly passionate about the same things as me, and were deeply interested in discussing these things but also in a down-to-earth way. By the end of the day, I actually felt like I had made FRIENDS, not just one-day acquaintances, and we were sharing cat memes and Ted Sheeran (Ed Sheeran with Ted Cruz' face) photos. What I am trying to get at with this is that to find a group of people that are simultaneously BRILLIANT in their experiences, academic ability, and passions while also just being regular, not stuck-up "Harvard" types was really great to see. The second major factor that blew me away was the impression I got from current students that "you really have to try hard to fail here" in the sense that there are SO many opportunities. I feel like we've all heard that you can't fathom the Harvard network/reach/resources, and I still probably can't, but I feel like I got a glimpse of it yesterday and was completely blown away. I think this manifests itself in the ways students and professors connect one another with other people/organizations that would be of interest to them. The last big factor was the career services session, which I explain more below. OH and the reception had chocolate covered strawberries, fancy cheese, beef skewers, champagne.... Food is the way to my heart Class Observation: I observed the class Educational Innovation and Social Entrepreneurship with Fernando Reimers (head of IEP, but the class was a cross-registry of students from all different HU schools + MIT). I was a half hour late because Admissions gave me the wrong building on the other side of the river (), but it wasn't their fault the class very randomly relocated just for that day. ANYWAY, I was blown away by the quality of students' ideas and very impressed by how well they listened and responded to each other's ideas, and also how well Fernando connected his students ideas and pushed their thinking. He clearly knew all of their names (or at least the ones who are active participants) and cracked jokes, even with a large class. They talked about really interesting business/ed related topics like whether or not we have an obligation as educators to share our intellectual property, if that's a good business model, whether we need to be competitors or collaborators, how to make a sustainable profit as a social entrepreneur. The professor clearly wanted his students' advice on his own ventures as well. What most impressed me was how reflective both the students and Fernando were about their privilege in being at HGSE, and Fernando in particular seemed to be very concerned about HGSE's catch-22 of being in the business of education and how the school does not want to "dilute" the HGSE brand by sharing its success models, but that this is a disingenuous approach to education because as educators we should want ALL schools to have what Harvard has. I just thought this was fascinating. Professor & Student Panel One professor gave advice to engage in methods courses that give you real skills and currency in the job market, saying that you'd be surprised how many people unwittingly become quantitative researchers even though they come in thinking they're not math people Real focus on not being stuck in the "ivory tower" and doing tangible things that make a difference in the world - Recommend taking negotiations and management classes at HKS - The microeconomics class is specifically ABOUT education and real issues, gives you the tools to actually analyze educational programs and not just economic skills. Class includes very little actual math, focused on handling difficult problems faced by NGOs, etc. - Some larger classes are supported by 3-4 teaching fellows (TFs) who are PhD students... they sometimes lead sections but never whole classes. - Fernando Reimers' accessibility to students is unparalleled. Most professors are busy but always willing to help. As an example, a student went to a professor saying she wants to get involved in X organization/agency, and within an hour the professor had emailed her back with his connections to leaders in that organization, which then led to an internship. In IEP, students are doing real development projects in their classes that are then often put into place by agencies like UNICEF, and some students are getting the chance to travel to other countries to present their projects or witness implementation. The opportunities for internships are OFF THE HOOK. Some students had 3 internships, including remote consultancies (with an international org, for example). In IEP, they are doing a lot of remote work with UNESCO, constantly on Skype calls with ministries of education abroad, etc. Several of them got to travel or will be traveling as part of their work. The majority of these opportunities came directly from professors, program managers, or career services. Classes are very practical and focused on implementation and hard skills (if you choose to take such classes, or you can focus on theory/research). It seems like almost all students are organizing/attending/presenting at conferences ALL THE TIME. Research Opportunities This was the part that was kinda ?? So basically, professors rarely have students get involved in research simply because EdM students are only there for 9 months, and professors are looking for a longer commitment of work, so they typically collaborate with PhD students. It's not impossible, but it is unlikely to do research on a professor's project. However, they are more than happy to assist you in personal research. MORE likely are the different "centers" at Harvard that have RA positions and internships. Classes/Cross-Registrations This was fascinating. The HGSE students really talked candidly about the major differences between Harvard Law/Business/Ed/Kennedy students. As a whole, we are a less competitive, more supportive community (not surprising), but we are still driven. They talked about how something we have to recognize is that as GSE students, we all share a philosophy that education matters and can change the world, but that this is not a belief shared by business/law/government students, so when we are in cross-registered classes, we have to really defend why education matters in a way that is a given among our GSE peers. But this is good and pushes us all to think harder. They recommend cross registering in the first semester and getting comfortable with it... it's not hard! Financial Aid Depressing session - don't bother appealing your aid package, it's not gonna change. Careers********* THIS SESSION WAS AMAZING Seriously, after this session, everyone around me just wanted to marry the CSO woman. HGSE will start working with you THIS JUNE to help you start thinking about job opportunities next year. With internships, she said they always have more opportunities than students, and that there is an internship expo in August with over 75 employers (seeking multiple students). Additionally, HGSE receives over 300 job postings a month, usually from alumni who not only want to hire you but also probably get a referral bonus for hiring you, and this is how many students get jobs. Many students also get jobs (or interviews) through professors who are deeply connected to EVERY organization in the world. Some job stats: 50% of HGSE students have jobs secured to start immediately after graduation (considering this is the teaching industry and many jobs start in September, this is actually an impressiv enumber) 85% or more of HGSE students have jobs secured within 3 months of graduation, the remaining 10% typically do some kind of summer fellowship (not sure what these are) These stats are also considered under the different "time to hire" timelines (corporate jobs take 30-40 days, government jobs 120 days) She said that for the remaining 5% who don't have jobs, it's usually for a very specific reason (aka they have offers but are being super picky, or they have some kind of interviewing problem) and that if you are "still seeking" then you receive EXTRA coaching and one-on-one intensive appointments to help you change your resume/interview skills/acquire some other experience. Basically, if you need help, they're gonna get you there. Random fun fact: Texas is DYING for HGSE alums! CSO lady said that if you want to work in Texas, she has people banging on her door! You have access to HGSE job postings for the rest of your life. Professors (even if they're not yours) are VERY giving with their professional network, so don't be shy, they love to hook you up

Penn almost had me there too. They are definitely the more nurturing, supportive program by design. I got the impression HGSE is supportive too, just not as handed to you on a silver platter. Everyone, I will write a VERY full report in a few hours when I get home!

I'm on my way back from Penn now, and it's official--when I get home, I'm submitting my deposit for Harvard!!! Penn literally shot themselves in the foot when a professor admitted to me that Harvard has unbeatable career services and job placement and that Penn still has a lot of work to do in this regard. While this isn't my only consideration, it's probably my biggest one, so there we go I will definitely share more details about the open houses for everyone.

It's been so valuable to bounce ideas off everyone here the last few months! I want to know everyone's decisions as they finalize, and your ultimate reasons. This may be helpful to future students too! So when you have decided, please share!

I will!!

Your posts bother no one! We're all here to help! i just had the MOST incredible open house at HGSE. I'm 100% certain now I want to attend, but I'm going to do my due diligence and go to Penn tomorrow. I'm on the train right now and will have zero time to write up more details about my experience today, but suffice it to say my mind was sufficiently blown times 100 and I just can't fathom turning HGSE down now, even if I get that big Penn scholarship. I'd be happy to share all my notes from today (11 freaking pages!!) in a day or two if anyone's interested Biggest factor was meeting all my potential classmates. They were inspiring.

I can't seem to find the link anymore but if you email Kindra Lansburg in admissions she's the one who arranges it. Or just call admissions!

Just observed a class and it was phenomenal! I was really impressed by the quality of the student discussion and the professors personal interactions and conversations with students.

*sigh* So frustrating not to have any word from either of my schools on this yet, as it is definitely a big factor in the decision-making process, and only 16 more days to decide.... Anyone else hear news yet?

Woo! I'm in IEDP too so I'll see you at the program breakout session!

I am currently facing the same choice as your fiancee. Will he/she have the chance to visit either school? I will be doing so for both schools this weekend, so can hopefully weigh in even more by Sunday. Both programs seem excellent. The Penn program has the required summer internship in a developing country, which may or may not be appealing depending on the existing level of experience your fiancee has? (AKA more experience, go to Harvard for the quick degree, instead of the longer program + internship at Penn). I think Penn has on average a younger cohort (slightly less work experience, though not especially notable). Penn's program is relatively new (2008) so career data is less available. I have heard that Harvard is slightly more quant-focused, but that may not be true, and your career is certainly what you make of it.

I'm also observing a class on Thursday! Which one are you attending? I'll be at Reimers' Educational Innovation class from 1-4pm. See everyone Friday!

Yeah, I feel torn about complaining. On the one hand, other people need more grants because they don't have as much saved up as me. On the other hand, I worked really hard to pay off my undergraduate debt and save thousands for grad school, why can't I get some financial credit for that? But I'll just count my blessings that I've gotten in and won't have to put myself too far out with loans.

Thanks for all the advice! My visits are this coming weekend so I will take all your suggestions into account!