sacklunch

You should just ask the schools of interest. No one here will be able to tell you much beyond "maybe".

I suppose my initial response still largely remains valid - i.e. you probably won't have enough coursework in German to take graduate level German classes (and thus those classes you could take, advanced undergraduate courses, will not count towards your degree). You would be better off doing a more general, interdisciplinary M*, say at UChicago, than a divinity degree there or anywhere else. This will allow you to craft the degree you want/need. In response to the post above that a UChicago Div degree is "attractive" -- I respond, to whom? There is no doubt that UChicago is impressive, but the attached "Divinity" will raise certain eyebrows among potential employers in biology et sim. (if I am reading your interests right). Let us say that the UChicago AM in Divinity and the UChicago MAPSS (vel sim.) allow you to take whatever courses you want and that both cost the same: you will be far better off professionally doing the latter, in my opinion. The kinds of divinity schools you're looking at are not well-known for good funding (Chicago, Duke). The only school mentioned here that has good funding, PTS, is an even riskier move, professionally speaking, because it is a standalone divinity school without formal ties to PrincetonU. I have known too many people with "elite" divinity degrees who, after realizing they have no interest in either a) theological careers and/or b) academia, cannot get a decent job. One that comes to mind is a Harvard MTS grad who works at Home Depot now. Good luck, friend.

We need a bit more info on what exactly you plan to do with the German. If you're only minoring in German, then you probably wont be far enough to do graduate coursework in a German department. This is important: thus, some kind of dual degree program or even a MTS might allow you take German classes, but they will probably need to be graduate classes to count toward your degree. This is actually one reason why many Div students don't take classes in other grad departments (e.g. PTS -> Princeton); that is, Div students often do not have the prereqs (divinity schools are often forced to be more introductory, because they usually have little to no prereqs). There is also the stigma attached to divinity schools in the professional world. I have no doubt you would be better off doing an MPP and taking a few classes in religion/theology at the same school than the other way around. "Divinity" feels antiquated, even backward, to many folks in the professional world. Though I can imagine that government jobs, at least in the US, are far more sympathetic. Doing both has its advantages, but as you said I don't think many official dual degree programs exist. I know Duke has such a program and I used to know someone who graduated from it. In any case, such a program adds considerable expense, which I assume for you will be offset by loans. Since there is little benefit, professionally speaking, of doing an MTS and an MPP, I would go for the MPP only (these days, considering the cost for most folks, doing an MTS with no intention of continuing to a PhD is risky, in my humble opinion). For you, that extra year might be worth the 40-50k.

I'd be happy to share mine, though not sure how much use it would be. I work in later antiquity as well. Shoot me a PM if you want and ill email you.

I think we might be talking about different things, but fair enough. I would encourage you to look at European schools for a few reasons. One, even the 'greats' - Oxford, et al. - are comparatively easy to get into; they seem to have far more American, non-traditional students. Second, they will be receptive to you knowing, at this stage, exactly what you want to write your dissertation on (good American schools will not). Third, and most important, you have the funds.

The reason I did not address the question directly, and I suspect the same for the others, is that it is too vague. "Gnostic/Pagan roots of Christianity" may strike some as nonsensical or, in light of scholarship on earliest Christianity in the past few decades, backward looking. So it's hard to recommend any scholar in particular. But, really, this forum is not terribly great for these kinds of questions--I wish it were, but most of the posters and conversations lean toward M* applicants. You are better off a) researching yourself using department websites, google books, jstor, etc. and then b) emailing current doctoral students/scholars in the subfield/s you see yourself in. Re languages, Syriac isn't going to get you very far in "gnostic studies"; there are a few wildly understudied Syriac texts with "gnostic themes" (forgive the imprecision) recovered among the magnificent remains of fourth-century Roman Kellis, but unsurprisingly these are Syriac-Coptic texts, which again brings up the importance of Coptic for studying "gnosticism." But, still again, "gnosticisim" may mean something very different to you than it does me (so you know I'm not completely full of it: I'm writing my doctoral dissertation, mostly I work in Greek papyrology, but I continue to work heavily with the earliest surviving Coptic texts). I am honestly happy to hear you are optimistic! You will without doubt face age discrimination; take some time to browse the current doctoral students at any of the schools you mentioned. I can almost guarantee that none of them will have a single student over the age of 40. The reality, then, is you will probably have to complete a doctoral degree at a lesser known school, which will likely mean no funding or very limited funds, and so on. It really does pain me to type this out, because I know how painful it is to hear you 'can't' do something because of conditions beyond your control. I hope I am wrong and I really do wish you the best of luck.

For a Divinity School, the students, at least the ones I've known, are indeed open minded (as are the faculty). As for studying comparative religion there, good luck? I'm sure they have some good course offerings and obviously Yale U is a different question altogether, but I very much doubt whether YDS is 'ideal' for studying comparative religion. It's a Divinity School and as such many if not most of its classes will have a theological component and thus will be viewed as 'inappropriate' (et sim.) by many academics in the field of religious studies. But in any case, the original question relates to moral theology and for that subfield YDS is a fine choice (though ND is far better known for that subfield).

Haven't read much about this program. You're using OSX I assume?

Good points, both of you. My experience visiting and interviewing there was it's 'ok' if you're a Christian with more traditional social interests. Every single doctoral student I met was Christian and most of them had families. This isn't a criticism, but is only to say that this seemed to have a big impact on the overall social and academic climate there. Most people will have no problem with that climate--because they are 'those' people.

I couldn't, to be fair. Though I don't think I could handle New Haven either. Both are pretty terrible.

Agreed. ND has a much better reputation than Yale Div. Again, I'm speaking of the M* level. The reason: ND is simply much harder to get into than YDS, especially considering we are here talking about ND's MTS vs YDS's MDiv. Completely different ballpark.

I'm not clear what you mean by 'more conservative.' Clarify a bit if you can.

Me: sixth year PhD candidate, broadly ancient history, specialty papyrology (mostly Greek, lots of Coptic et al.), late ancient reading practices, scholars, Septuagint, ancient grammar, etc. I have toyed around with various word processors, but always come back to Word. My school has a paid subscription for OneDrive, which syncs remarkably well with Word, autosaves, etc., which makes it an easy choice. Bibliography. This one is hard. I use Endnote online, mostly because my Uni has a paid subscription. I mostly use it to store and organize references related to my dissertation and books/articles I need/want to read at some point. But honestly, I didn't use any kind of software before my dissertation and I never found it to be a hassle. I suppose you could start using something like Endnote now, especially if it's free for you. Resources I wish I would have known about. Hmm...A big one that comes to mind is to invest in the cheapest new ipad and ipencil (or similar stylus--the new base ipad supports ipencil now, used to be only the pro). I was one of those people who hated reading articles/books electronically. But I realized that with the pencil, it feels basically the same as the real thing. The biggest advantage for me reading this way is I can pull up the article/book on my laptop/desktop and see my notes/highlights. This helps immensely when you are returning to certain references over long spans of time (dissertation work). Another tech item is getting more than one monitor, but the benefits of this are largely contingent on the kind of work you do (or will do). For me, I spend lots of time looking at digital images of papyri alongside text documents; I have to do a lot of transcribing, etc., and with only one monitor you will make mistakes. I doubt you are/will be doing this kind of work, but the benefits are still there even if you are only looking at multiple (modern) text documents. Language upkeep - good luck. How many languages? Dead and/or spoken? You will probably have to give up competency in some over time, increase competency in others. So it goes.

I don't want to discourage you, but to be blunt, your chances are not good. The biggest challenge is your age. It is perhaps unfortunate, but I think true that most academics at the schools you're after will not want to devote energy to training you when the time you would be working as a scholar in the field is limited (if you're 48 now, you are looking at something like 8-10 years from now when you would finish the PhD). Moreover, you will encounter pushback against the idea that you can turn an MTS project into a 'good' dissertation (again, thinking here of the academics at the schools you're after). Again, I'm sorry to be so negative! Others please feel free to join in and offer some more positive feedback.

If you were in said program already? I doubt the school would risk kicking you out, but more importantly, I don't think anyone would care. Yes, it might impact your future career, if you want to stay in academia; for example, if one of your faculty advisers found out and cared. But overall I have found faculty to be far more liberal on these kinds of issues than the general public, so I doubt anyone would care much, if at all. Yes, there are schools that have conduct codes, of sorts, but I doubt you have much interest in attending those schools anyway (as far as I know, the only schools to have such codes are religiously conservative schools).

Great questions. I don't really have any solid answers. Perhaps somewhat related, have you visited ND? When I went there for the interview (PhD) I was so turned off just by the general conservative atmosphere as well as what seemed to be an awful place to live. I recall one of the orientation events discussing things like "what your spouse can do around town for fun when she gets pregnant and you're busy with school." I promptly raised my hand and asked what South Bend had to offer for secular homosexuals with no interest in kids. They didn't have any good recommendations. Anyways, my expectations were set by liberal Jesuit schools (like Fordham) and I mistakenly assumed that ND would be similar-ish. I guess with COVID the on-site interviews are canceled?

I don't doubt that it is, though I question how much of that is the PhD/ThD. I was speaking strictly about masters degrees at HDS and the fact that HDS, like all top divinity schools in the US, have relatively high acceptance rates for M* degrees. The doctoral programs do not, of course, and they mirror the low acceptance rates of other disciplines. To put it in perspective, I can't imagine any faculty member working in ancient history being more impressed with an applicant who has an MTS from HDS verses the ECS masters from ND. The latter is highly selective, the former is not. But, yes, HDS is still Harvard, so it has a 'better' ranking than ND.

Well, to be fair, most admission committees won't see many applicants from Yale U, since that would mean the applicant went to Yale for college (a rather unlikely scenario, if anyone has been tracking stats at R1 schools these days [in short record low humanities majors, while non-elite schools fair much better and haven't changed much in this regard in the past decade]) or perhaps went there for some other M* degree, but I'm not sure if Yale U even offer a degree that would allow one to take advanced classes in ANE studies. Most of the applicants to the top religion (perhaps less so ANE) programs in the US come from divinity schools. My point, in part, was that because most come from divinity schools, faculty are aware of what to expect, as far as preparation goes. Regarding the MARc, yes, while the degree may allow one to take more advanced classes, opting out of intro ones, the potential problem still remains, i.e. the average advanced class is probably more akin to an advanced undergraduate course. So, e.g., if you took a Greek or Hebrew exegesis course at YDS, my guess is it would be about the same level of difficulty as an undergrad class that required 2 years of the language (so a class of juniors and seniors). The reasons for this are practical: because divinity schools don't have language prereqs, they have a lot of students who begin language study when they start their MDiv or MAR, less so MARc. But, majority wins: the courses, perhaps rightly so, are structured to allow those 'late' starting students to join. Outside of the YDS, at Yale U, things will be different; they don't have that expectation and will be full of mostly doctoral students--but don't let that scare you off! Because many of those doctoral students came from divinity schools (and recently, since they are in their first two years of coursework), their language training may be about where you are at now. The good thing about YDS, if you can take enough classes at Yale U, is that you can get a nice mix of intensity during the semester. I should also alert you, and others please speak up if you have an opinion on this, that some professors in religion prefer students with a diverse academic background, in the sense that they like people who went to more than one school. The thinking is that you will have 'proved' yourself in more than one academic environment, thereby increasing the likelihood that your polished CV is not some kind of fluke. This matters far less if you went to a known school--the assumption then is you have already been vetted, plus profs at R1's tend to know each other. They will simply email their friend and ask about you. This can work for or against you. It's hard for me to have a strong opinion about your situation, because a) I know nothing about your current school (e.g. what kind of classes can you take that you haven't) and b) I don't know enough about what you can opt out of at YDS, what classes they will have there and at Yale U when you're there.

Re the original question, you need to look carefully at the course requirements for the MARc and see what you can or can't get out of. I know the MARc has exceptions, but I don't know what they are. If the program requires you to take a bunch of fluff--i.e. anything that isn't specific to ANE studies--you may consider the other offer. YDS has a good name, yes, but not really in ANE studies (note I'm not talking about Yale U, which is entirely different). I'm not saying YDS bad, far from it, just that faculty working in ANE studies tend to be much more interested in how good your language skills are, ancient and modern, field experience, specialized coursework (epigraphy, e.g.). You can get some of that at YDS, or at least via Yale U, but you may get stuck taking classes that are more introductory; even if you don't have to take X number of intro classes, you should check how many classes they will let you take outside YDS (there may not be enough classes available at YDS in your specialty for any given semester). The introductory nature of divinity courses is really the biggest problem, I think, for successful entrance into a good PhD program in any field of ancient history. They are not really designed to prepare you for this, or at least that is a very small part of what a divinity school can offer. The top ANE PhD programs, including Yale U, are not going to give a hoot, e.g., if you have a MARc from YDS, but you took a bunch of intro/unrelated classes. They would be far more impressed with someone who has an MA from a good state school who did more advanced/focused research. And honestly even if you have, on paper, 'advanced' classes from YDS or the other usual divinity suspects, certainly Duke, less so HDS and Chicago, they may be skeptical that those classes were up to the same rigor as a non-divinity school. I can say I have walked into a few 'advanced' language classes at a few big divinity schools and was surprised, at first, at the level (lack) of intensity. Faculty know this.

Depends what funding package is offered at YDS. I would think long and hard about doing a PhD at a low ranked school/program these days as well.

You make a good point about recruiting, but it's one that I can't fully agree with or deny, since such scenarios seem rare. How many people with an MDiv from HDS are talking to a recruiter for any kind of professional job (e.g. let's say you tried to move into some entry level accounting/finance role)? Not many is my guess. But how would I know? My best friend works in finance in San Fran, recently moved from NYC, has an MBA, that sort of thing; and having had these kinds of conversations with him and his friends in that world, I can say they are bewildered by people with M* from divinity schools. I think they would prefer to never hire someone with such a degree. But, to be fair, they are also bewildered/put at unease by people like me--secular dudes getting a PhD in religion. They mostly lump us together (can you tell I'm unhappy about that!?). But, you're right, generally speaking, that many people would simply see 'Harvard' or whatever school and regardless of the grad degree it would help you. I'm looping back again and pulling back a bit on what I said earlier. I guess, in the end, my feeling is you shouldn't waste any money on getting any M* unless you have a pretty good idea of what you want to do with it. If it's free, or very cheap (or you're rich), then yeah, go for it. Otherwise, I honestly think you will spend those 2 years in Cambridge more or less starry-eyed and full of high expectations. But, when you finish, if you don't stay in 'theological'-job-world or if you're not 'good enough' to progress in academia, I think you will be in for a reality check. These kinds of schools bank on the pipe-dream; and for some people, when they finish and they move back to Oklahoma (et sim.) because they couldn't get a good enough job to justify staying in Boston, or wherever else, it may be worth all that money to say, at some friend's BBQ, that you went to Harvard. You did it. You're that person. Or at least you get to be at the BBQ. But most days there is no BBQ. /rambling.

If you go the non-academic route, then I have no doubt HDS would look better on a resume. Would it make a huge difference? I doubt it. If it didn't say "Divinity" it might, but, honestly, that label throws about every red flag possible to folks working in the professional world. Even others with grad degrees from the same top schools with divinity schools are sort of confused, if not at times alarmed/put at unease, when they meet people with a divinity degree. It feels antiquated to them, backward thinking, the odd duck in the larger, increasingly secular university culture in the US, which is especially acute at top schools. I'm not saying the divinity students/graduates are marginalized per se at these schools. They are better off than most folks, professionally speaking. But how much better off is say, person 1 with only a BA vs person 2 with a BA from the same school as person 1 + a M* from HDS? In the non-academic professional world, outside of 'theological'-jobs, I would argue not really better off at all. In fact, I am positive that certain employers would rather hire the first person, because they may think that person 2 will just not fit in with the other types of folks in a professional environment--e.g. person 2 may have inappropriate conversations at work (related to god/s, and so on). Now, I am not saying person 2 would do any of those things or even that the folks s/he works with wouldn't want to have those conversations, only that a hiring manager may assume any one of those things. This is mostly hypothetical. But I do know a few people with M* from top divinity schools, including HDS, who did not want to work in 'theological'-job-world upon graduation. They either didn't get into PhD programs or they didn't have an interest in them. So what do they do? Whatever they can. A few of them have jobs they love, a few don't. What they have in common, generally, is their M* didn't help them much professionally. And, I can recall a few of them relating experiences of unease during the hiring process because their divinity education. You may rightly be wondering why you haven't read the exact kinds of things I am typing elsewhere on this forum (or perhaps you have?). I think the answer is that most of the people on here either a) don't bother to come back and ramble on after they have already 'made it' (this forum is about getting into graduate school, more or less) or b) they are firmly entrenched in 'theological'-job-land and thus these issues are largely irrelevant for them. Okay, enough rambling. Back to the dissertation.

harvah raises a good point and one that was at the back of my mind when I wrote my earlier response. That is, how much of your interest is the school's reputation? Given your interests in Catholic education, honestly, I think BC will carry much more weight than HDS post graduation. Re the difference between scholars/this forum about HDS, I should add that I think that this is largely true of the top divinity schools in the US. Folks on this forum tend to conflate, e.g., US News World Report type of rankings for undergraduate schools, with the top divinity schools. There is some connection there, however vague, but anyone who has been in the field of academic religion/religious studies knows, these divinity schools have a far higher acceptance than the undergraduate population. And, really, even when considering other non-divinity M* programs at those top schools, the divinity programs have a hilariously high acceptance rate (what other graduate degree at, say, Harvard, comes close to 50% acceptance? Not many, I would guess). The consequence of this relatively high acceptance rate means that HDS, along with YDS, DDS, PTS, Chicago Div, et al., take students without the same standard of past, academic work (and, honestly, many without the prospect of high-quality future academic work). Note I am not attempting to criticize this standard, but it is important to note its difference from basically all other graduate programs (M* and PhD alike). Over the years as a doctoral student at one of these institutions, I have seen the false sense of security in divinity students at said school; understandably, they think they have passed through the same impossibly high admission standards as other graduate students at those same institutions. Again, I am not belittling their accomplishments; it's just important to realize that scholars in the field of religion/religious studies know everything I am here typing, they know that having an M* from a top divinity school in the US doesn't mean you are necessarily better prepared than, say, someone with only a BA, or someone with an MA from a large state school. And again I feel the need to state that much of what I'm saying depends on subfield and basically all of what I'm saying is restricted to academia. Take that for what it is.

I'm not convinced that the 'big H' opens doors on principle of reputation. I mean, yes, it does open certain doors, but it's important to ask which 'doors' the OP wants to pass through. My personal opinion is that HDS has a far better reputation on this forum than it does among scholars in religion/religious studies. I'm not saying it doesn't have a good reputation among scholars; it does. But I'm not sold on its reputation being all that much better than, say, BC. Much of this depends on subfield, which again gets back to the question of what the OP wants to do with the degree. If it's work in academia in a Catholic environment, then BC is probably going to be a better professional (and probably personal) decision. Even if OP has no interest in studying Catholic theology, but has an interest in some, say, historical period, but BC has more faculty of interest, you may very well be better off going to BC. You can, of course, go to HDS and take courses at BC through the BTI, but, again, you may be better off going to BC and taking courses at HDS depending on your interests.

It's difficult to speak in generalities here, but NELC programs are usually more focused on highly technical and material aspects of ancient cultures: e.g. inscriptions (epigraphy), papyrology, archaeology, etc. I'm not saying these areas are alien to religious studies programs, but that they are not common in the larger scheme. Religion/religious studies as a discipline is simply broader and for this reason my guess is that a religion/religious studies PhD is more marketable, but you should check me on that, as I have never seen any statistic. NELC programs are few and far between and really only exist at top schools, so it's a bit unfair to compare the 'average' religion/religious studies PhD, since you cannot rule out if academic prestige plays a major role (studies show it indeed does); ideally, you would want to look at PhDs from one school in both departments, the best being Harvard and Chicago (esp. because there is overlap in students' research between NELC and religion/religious studies/classics).