sacklunch

Go to Chicago. For what it's worth, Chicago Div has a reputation of being less-seminary-y than all other divinity schools/seminaries in the USA (including HDS), which in your case is a plus. But, really, a full ride + stipend is rare anywhere, and especially so at Chicago, which is notorious for giving less money than the other R1's.

I disagree with some of the above comments. Of course, it depends on the PhD program and one's subfield, but many 'top tier' programs accept students with an MDiv (and without any other M* degree). Many also accept students with only (one) MTS/MAR. If you decide to do another masters, my advice is not to do a ThM or similar degree, since: 1) they are usually completely unfunded and 2) a year isn't enough time given your current 'problem' (i.e. uncertain what you want to specialize in). Again, it depends on your subfield (or what you think you want), but you are far better off doing an MTS/MAR or an MA in religion/religious studies (or related field). Either way, it is essential that your second M* allow you freedom in coursework, since you have already done all the MDiv 'fluff' and you don't want to repeat (and repay for that). A ThM will allow that freedom, but if you hope to transition straight from the program, again, you will be applying to PhD programs before the end of your first semester at said program (and, again, consider the funding issue). In the end, you may well end up having to pay (loan) for much of the degree. Anyways, without more information on what you (think you) want to do, we can't really help you.

ND's MTS is hands down the most competitive 'top' program of the kind, followed I would say by Yale's MARc. ND's MTS is fully funded and comes with a small stipend. As for posted numbers, consider the kind of person who even posts on this forum; it attracts a certain kind of applicant and all the more so for the results page. For most of us, it's too painful to type out those average/bad scores. Or people are misrepresenting their numbers (lying). Prolly a bit of both.

Your GPA is fine. Divinity schools, even those at the top, regularly accept students with such grades, especially for the MDiv. I don't know the stats, but I would say you have a better chance at getting into Duke or Harvard's MDiv than, say, a religious studies MA at University of Kansas. Last stats I saw, MDiv acceptance at such schools wavers between 40-60% year to year.

I have also studied at JTS and it's far from a yeshiva. It's fairly close to the environment you might encounter at e.g. PTS, but obviously the interests at JTS lean rabbinic rather than, say, biblical studies. I can't say that I know anyone with a PhD from JTS. It has a very good reputation, but is so closely associated with Jewish Studies/rabbinics that I suspect having a PhD from there would limit you to certain kinds of jobs. This may be fine for you, but it's something to consider. If the funding situation is as DavidMM says, then you might consider/apply elsewhere. If you want to do rabbinics, you could very well apply to Columbia and take lots of coursework over at JTS; and there are of course lots of top rabbinics scholars at other unis without any official religious affiliation.

Your interests are very wide, which is understandable given your background. Attending GC will have wildly different outcomes, as far as your interests and future prospects, than will say BC. I can't speak to the field(s) of Ethics, but I can for biblical studies. Distance learning for languages is difficult, though less so for ancient languages, since most of what they teach in divinity schools is a passive form of learning within a very narrow literature (i.e. only reading the Hebrew Bible or Greek New Testament). I can't say for certain, but my guess is that if you're limited to distance learning, Catholic and secular schools have less biblical studies than Protestant schools. Well, before I ramble more here, tell us what you want out of this, end game.

If you're from the USA (assuming you are), then, yes, you will likely get in; it's just you have to pay for it. I don't know your situation with the military, but I doubt they would pay for any of it (not covered under G.I. Bill?), since it is unrelated to internal, military advancement (e.g. becoming an officer). Don't let the prestige fool you. It is, of course, a great school; but American academics know that Oxford and the like almost always accept Americans (esp. for a masters), since we can take US federal loans to enroll. This means that when they (PhD admissions folk) look at your CV and see Oxford, they will immediately assume you paid for it and then wonder whether you went there because you weren't 'good enough' to get into a good school here for an 'elite' MA. I should be clear that I don't think such assumptions apply to students with impressive backgrounds: e.g. if you went to a well-known UG school in the US (or simply had good grades) and/or the same for your first MA, they (PhD admissions folk) might indeed assume you paid for the Oxford masters, but what follows--that you weren't 'good enough' to get into a program in the country and thus had to pay your way into an elite school--would not cross their mind. This is all rather speculative, and it is actually probably wrong if you intend to apply to PhD programs outside the usual R1 schools. Tell us more about what you actually want to study (or think you do) and where for the PhD.

As already said, the admission process is very different. I'll add that while you are competing for a limited number of spots in the ThD, it's more or less the same for the PhD. Each year the number of accepted students changes for each subfield of the PhD and there is no way to know beforehand how the subfields are divided. It's not purely luck, but it's nothing you can control.

For most Americans, Oxbridge is just not that competitive. It is very difficult to get full funding as an American there, but what isn't difficult is getting in and even paying for it through US government loans. Every American academic knows this, so they are very skeptical of any American who has a DPhil from basically any non-North American school. And honestly, I can't say I blame them. The few Americans I know who have a DPhil from a well-known European school (including Oxford) just don't seem to be all that well-prepared, academically and professionally, for the US market. They have no teaching experience and their writing is worse than most coming out of even a middling American department.

Your only real option is a masters, possibly an MDiv or MTS (or MAR). They simply do not teach classical Hebrew outside of these sort of programs (it should go without saying that a PhD program is out of the question given your language exp.) and you don't have the required coursework for basically all masters in related disciplines (e.g. Classics, Ancient Near Eastern studies, etc.). You said you don't want to 'lead' others and thus the MDiv is not of interest; perhaps then look at an MTS. But, given your stated goal, I'm not sure you even need this. Classical Hebrew is not a difficult language to teach oneself if you have little interest in the minutiae of philology. The Hebrew Bible is a tiny slice of the linguistic pie; and the modern resources (print and electronic) for the language allow one to navigate its text with relative ease. I'll also note that while modern Hebrew is in many cases very similar to classical, it is not at all the same (if it helps, I have studied both extensively).

Give us a bit more direction. What sort of 'professional' jobs are you thinking of? Professor-ship? What is your current level of secondary education? Language experience?

It really depends on the subfield. Given your stated interests, I am not the right person to say. You need to look at the backgrounds of students at programs of interest. This will be your best guide. On that note, take any recommendation here with a certain amount of suspicion, even from those of us who are currently in doctoral programs. What's expected varies so much from one subfield to another.

In short, no, one year of Latin is far from enough. Re a couple points made above. No MA in Classics will accept you, since basically all of them in the US require advanced proficiency in Greek or Latin and intermediate in the other (though you might look at 'ancient history' programs). A post-bacc in Classics is your only real option outside of religious studies/theology programs. And yes, if you expect to get into a decent doctoral program in that field, you are going to spend most of said MA in intro/intermediate language classes. There is no practical option here because academia is anything but practical. Catholic University has a great program, but many of its doctoral students are paying (through loans) for it, so that's something to consider (i.e. they might accept you, but expect you to take on 100k+ to get a degree that, in this job market, may not get you any job you want, unless you enjoy adjucting and making poverty wages). As someone else mentioned, many people in this field have two M* degrees; and I'll add that some of us even have two M* despite the fact that we had decent language exposure in undergrad. I'm not saying this is the norm, but it is not uncommon, which means at places like Notre Dame you are going to be applying against applicants who have been studying Latin and/or Greek since undergrad or even high school, through two M*, putting them a solid number of years beyond you.

We need more information about your interests. "Religion/theology" covers basically everything; having 1 year of Latin would be overkill for some programs and utterly insufficient for others.

Perhaps mine was returned so quickly (a bit less than 6 months) from JBL because of what I submitted, which was an edition of an unpublished papyrus fragment. The editor responded that to be published with them I needed to have the papyrus carbon 14 dated and the ink tested. I guess the Jesus' wife fake scared them away. In any case, I guess that means JBL is out of the publishing papyri game (or any other ancient artifact for that that matter), since no reputable institution would allow such tests (which require destroying some of the artifact).

I guess it depends even on the journal. I heard from JBL within six months.

Unfortunately, this isn't the best forum for those interests (Marx- may chime in here?). I suggest you contact current doctoral students (not professors; their responses will be general, if they say anything) in programs of interest and ask these very questions. Because, as you say, what's expected is all over the map, you should only really take recs from those in the field who have made it into a program.

That's a tough one. Without any languages and with so few courses you will have a hard time getting into fully funded programs. As you mentioned, go ahead and apply for ND's Early Christian Studies program; it's very competitive though. You might check U of Arizona's MA in Classics (or similar programs that don't require language work), which are known for giving full rides; possibly University of Kansas's MA in Religious Studies, which I think can also come with full funding. I would suggest you do a post-bacc in classics (e.g. at UPenn), but none of them to my knowledge come with any funding. You may also look into the big name divinity schools: Harvard and Yale are known for good funding (Princeton Theological is also known for good funding, but since it is technically unaffiliated with the University I would steer clear unless you have some interest in theology--I assume you don't because you didn't mention it); Duke and Chicago and known for not giving much money. You could stay at your current school for an extra year and taking an ancient language, but even this may not be enough to get into a fully funded MA. Or alternatively, if there is a local community college that offers Greek or Latin, you could do a year or better yet two before applying to fully funded MAs. I should also mention what may or may not be obvious to you at your stage: it is very rare for anyone to get into a decent (i.e. funded) PhD program in religion with a focus in ancient religion without a) at least one masters degree and b) without substantial language coursework (usually at least one ancient language at the advanced level and another at the intermediate; and at least reading proficiency in one modern language, usually German). If you hope to make it into a good/funded PhD program, you need to focus as much as possible on languages. Do not even consider an MA program that does not allow you to focus largely or even solely on languages (unless of course it is fully funded--but even in that case be prepared to do another masters before applying to PhD programs). Good luck my friend.

Some good recommendations here. You likely already know this, but I should emphasize that while Brite et al. are far more respected among 'secular' academics/institutions than your current school, they too will almost certainly keep you out of the running for most secular schools/departments. Given the job market you will most certainly never leave the (conservative) Christian (academic) bubble and those outside of it will view what you publish with suspicion, if they read you at all. As others say above, anyone who reads your CV for doctoral admissions at an R1 is unlikely to see the nuance between SBC seminaries. To most outsiders, they are all the same--the risks are too great to invest in you years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. My recommendation, if you want to exit this bubble, is to leave your program immediately and complete a (secular) M* in religion/religious studies or a related field (e.g. a postbacc in classics). Yes, also apply to "theological" M* at R1's, which will signal that you're not super conservative (Yale et al.). But it sounds like your personal situation prevents you leaving the area.

I wouldn't worry too much (don't retake it). Those scores are perfectly fine (edit: very good). Put your efforts into your writing sample and statement.

You're right, your situation is not typical, but I think in ways that benefit you. You have the rare advantage of having gone to a top 5 school for undergrad. If you do some skimming through profiles of doctoral students at TT programs in religion you will find that most did not go to highly ranked schools for college (or at least rarely in the top 10-20). Regardless of its truth, there is the notion that such students are exceptional and thus they can easily catch up/move beyond their peers with degrees from less impressive institutions. Moreover, the field of religion/religious studies has been increasingly pushing interdisciplinary methods and your background in math will help you to that end. As for divinity schools, I would urge you to apply to religion/religious studies programs as well. Funding is a large factor for applying to divinity schools, but there are a few very well-respected religion/classics MA's that I think will much better prepare you. What comes to mind is Notre Dame's Early Christian Studies (ECS) program, which is fully funded and as far as I'm concerned much more rigorous than any MTS from the usual suspects (e.g. HDS, YDS, Duke). Such programs are very small and are much more specialized, while most MTS programs will demand a number of required courses that quite honestly will be wasted time if you hope to secure a spot in a good doctoral program. You mention that you have some interest in ministry. That's all fine and well, but if you don't plan to go on in that world, then you should not spend the time (and likely money) taking classes on pastoral counseling rather than language courses. Oh, right, speaking of languages. You mentioned you have some coursework in classical Greek, which is great. But you will need more Greek (not just koine...!) and depending on your exact interests other languages as well. It has been said on this forum time and again (much by me), but it's worth repeating: without the required language coursework you will not get into a decent doctoral program in biblical studies. This is why I also urge you to consider programs such as Notre Dame's ECS because they will allow you to focus on languages, while most MTS programs will only allow a certain number of them to count toward your degree. Again, it's been said many times, but the requirements of seminaries mean that students often go for another M* (or ThM) afterward since the MTS rarely allows the necessary focus. If you have any questions feel free to PM me. cheers

Your interests are pretty broad, which isn't bad of course, and many have completed an MDiv for that very reason. But that adds time and usually money. The 'problem' with keeping all of these doors open is if you decide on an academic path then you may have to get another M* (e.g. MA) to be competitive at many top programs. The reason many people have multiple M* degrees before starting a PhD in religion/religious studies is because of such broad interests. Compare, for example, the interests and motivations of the average student interested in Egyptology or Classics. You don't hear about how they may, in the end, want to preach the good news of the gods (if only!). Thus it is still commonplace, at least at some universities, for one to start a doctoral program straight after college. Anyways, this can only possibly help answer #2. But really there is no single path; much of what determines where one will end up, especially for something like an MDiv, is based on anecdotes (here!) if even just chance. I'm suddenly reminded of Seneca's 'life will follow the course on which it began, and it will neither reverse nor halt its course.' ?

Why do you want an MDiv? Unless your reason is a) funding and/or b) interest in ministry, you should at least look into other degrees, many of which will be much better preparation for doctoral programs in biblical studies. Many on the forum (and outside of it) have asked these sorts of questions and many have ended up going to top seminaries--as Marx said even the "elite" seminaries have very high acceptance rates. But the vast majority never make it past the MDiv and I'm convinced this is largely because the MDiv is not made for people interested in continuing on to "secular" doctoral programs. The MDiv has too many requirements, too few electives, your classes will be large, and your language classes may be too focused on accommodating theological interests (without the necessary philological training required for basic "scholarly" work in biblical studies). These are some of the complaints I have heard from dozens of MDiv students from at least two elite seminaries. Again, if you meet a) and/or b) above, I understand your interest in the MDiv. If you need/want the MDiv and excluding the potential differences in funding, I suggest you target your search on a) reputation (the usual suspects); but just as importantly b) flexibility in the program (all MDiv's will require a lot of general coursework, while others less so). Because you have zero (right?) background in biblical studies you will have to play catch up--though you will likely feel like you can never catch up. Many students without any undergraduate coursework in religion and more importantly languages need a second M* to be competitive (or a ThM, and so on); and even this may not be enough! Story time. I have a good friend who was interested in biblical studies (NT) who did an MDiv at Emory. When said person finished they realized they didn't have enough language coursework to be competitive (had a lot of Greek, but no Hebrew/Aramaic and barely any German) and so they did an MTS at another well-known school. They still didn't get into any fully funded doctoral program even after 5 years of full time graduate work (they also had studied religion in college). I'm sure others on the forum have heard similar stories.

I should also add that you may check into possible exemptions. At my school, I was exempt from both my modern language exams since I have over 3 years of college credit for each. You may have enough credit for one or even two; or you could plan on taking more classes to reach whatever number of required classes exclude you from the tests (but at the 3 year mark you damn well better pass those tests!).

As to whether they will prepare you for a good doctoral program, yes, they may very well. But that's different from being competitive. Spend some time looking over current doctoral students' backgrounds at good schools and see for yourself. You will find that most come from the usual suspects (i.e. not Truett). In short, the odds are against you, especially if you apply to NT programs (which have the highest number of applicants--and thus can be more competitive). If you can move, basically everyone on here will recommend you go somewhere with a better academic reputation. Again, if you have the means (funding), but need to stay local, you are better off getting an MA in religion, classics, and so on (though these programs are usually more competitive and assume a background in the relevant languages). For most seminaries, the MDiv is simply not designed to help you get into a "secular" doctoral program (or even places like PTS). It is the path followed by many, but only because of the fact that in the USA one's interest in "biblical" topics usually tracks closely with one's personal/religious/whatever commitments. While it's true that this close relationship often bleeds over into one's research interests at the doctoral level, a large part of what you learn/study in an MDiv is moot for many doctoral programs in religion/religious studies. There is, moreover, the additional fear from doctoral program committees at good schools that someone with an MDiv from Truett will be (too) theological and thus not "fit in"; and so on. An MDiv from a top school assuages at least some of those concerns (or at least it does so from the Christian faculty--many other faculty will remain skeptical that any seminary degree is appropriate preparation). /rant