sacklunch

Yeah, ill have four years of academic M* work (MTS/MA). Honestly I think my application will be very competitive excluding my GRE scores....the trouble is raising them to 90%+. It just sucks that I may not be able to get into one of my top choices (ND, Harvard) because of that damn test. But, we all gotta play the game, eh? Also, I may apply to some ThM's this fall. This would give me another year to try for another 'great' score. Though 5 years of academic M* work may be a bit overkill and admissions may wonder why the hell I did so many years (since I did theology/classics in UG).

I should have mentioned that I'm asking about doctoral programs! M* students need not reply! <3

Alright, now that everyone has, more or less, heard back from all their schools (at least acceptances), I am curious: What type of scores do you all have? I currently have a verbal score somewhere around 75% and I am planning on retaking, several times if I have to, to get somewhere (at least) 85%+. I know there are all kinds of opinions floating around on the board as to the importance of the GRE, but at least in religion/theology, it seems like you need a fairly competitive score. That said, those of you who received interviews/offers, what scores will realistically get you in??

It's true....I was paying $800 a month to live in a 12 bedroom house (graduate house run by BC). Most of the folks I knew in Cambridge/Som. were paying around that.

I, too, did not intend to speak against the program or its students. I know quite a few people who went there and they are all smart people. Point taken. best

I imagine the number comes from MDiv numbers, if it's accurate at all. It is well known that almost every institution accepts far more MDiv students than MTS/MAR; though there are exceptions, like BC (because clergy are male).

I don't think it's that high, but I will go beyond what the poster said and say that this type of 'antagonism' from doctoral students to M* students exists in most (every?) university settings. It's not necessarily true that the M* students are not smart. They clearly are (esp at HDS), but I imagine there are times when you have an M* student with a limited amount of training/coursework take a course with a lot of doctoral students. I have been in courses like that where I have felt I needed to 'prove' myself simply because they assumed I wasn't 'at that level.' And perhaps they were right, honestly. Their training has been thoroughly screened based on pure academic ability, while many M* students (at a divinity school) often are accepted because of other factors (ie not always entirely academic). Doctoral students know this and make generalizations about the M* students based off such experience, I think. For example, say HDS accepts a transgendered Muslim who wants to work in Islamic law. A students particular background, area of study, et cetera, are all factors in their acceptance (and they should be, of course). And then they enroll in a doctoral seminar where all the students are fluent Arabic speakers, have had tons of training in related fields, ect. It's easy to see how they might 'look down' on the masters students. My .02.

I will say that at least when I was there BC was VERY liberal with their requirements. I got away with taking so many of the required courses by simply asking my adviser if a particular course would count. One summer I took both ecclesiology and christology, which were very short, but they counted those as part of my required courses. Another time I took a 'January term' course at Gordon Con. (it was two weeks) on 'community organizing.' Another time I took a 3 week class on 'Christian ethics.' All of those counted for my degree and I still ended up taking a full load outside of those courses. So I ended up graduating with more classes than I needed for the degree (three or four), but it worked out well because it allowed me take exactly what I wanted to prepare me for more advanced work. What was strange was when I asked my adviser if something could count, he would pretty easily allow it (though my guy was really friendly--and understood that biblical studies students should be spending way more time on philology than anything else) without really noting anything down. So when I graduated I was wondering if anyone was even keeping track? Kind of odd, and perhaps this was because the program was still fairly new, but I can't imagine things have changed much. Also, with regard to languages: normally MTS programs will only allow their applicants to take X amount of language courses. This varies from place to place, but most, I think, allow you to take like 6-9 credits. I petitioned the STM, with the support of two of the older/respected bible faculty, and quite easily was allowed to take much more than they normally allow. They said that anything above the intermediate level would count as a 'bible' course, since at that level and above you are spending more time on content rather than grammar (and thus bible); though, again, strangely they allowed upper level classical Greek courses to count (not related to biblical literature at all!). In short, I wouldn't be too concerned about their requirements. And from what I have heard about other seminaries, PTS included, they are VERY serious about you fulfilling certain courses in order to graduate. Also, as someone above mentioned, access to the BTI puts you into contact with HUNDREDS of professors. If you go to BC you will have access to more courses than (I imagine) anywhere else in the world.

Go to HDS. You will have access to an amazing number of professors and if they do not have something specific to your needs you can just as easily go outside (BTI).

I don't think that's entirely true (funding). Prolly differs from program to program, eh? I would gladly attend one of those three, but I would be cautious about tending one of the lesser known Canadian unis. I have met several profs in the US with PhD's from Toronto. Didn't seem to hurt them at all and I have heard great things about their program. In fact my adviser here went to Toronto for his PhD and is one of the top folks in his respective field (in the US).

I would just ask them. I don't think most (schools) would even think to ask. But to be honest, how would they even know?? Submit the work that you think is your best which compliments your proposed area of study.

I still totally support the MARc...having talked to a lot of MTS students here, there just seems to be too many requirements.

Don't fret over it too much. A writing sample at the master's level is more of a formality. You do not need to worry about submitting something 'original.' The only exception, perhaps, would be one of the more competitive MTS/MAR programs, such as Yale's MARc, and maybe ND and Duke's MTS. Though as most of the folks on here will tell you: spend the most time on your personal statement(s). Ensuring a good fit should be your first priority and the SOP is the place to show that. The WS should, if possible, support your fit in the program. So if you apply to Duke to work in biblical studies, for instance, I would submit something relevant (as you mentioned, something exegetical). best

The MARc, I think, is the best (if not one of the best) masters in religion. Almost every other M* degree in theology/religion will require you take a bunch of 'fluff.' The fact that they do not speaks a lot for the degree. In fact, the only other degree that doesn't require you take all the extra requirements is Duke's MA (please, others correct me if I am wrong).

I can confirm this. The person I referenced earlier went to Jesuit schools for UG and masters. I did too, but it didn't help me (though I have never applied to the MTS, only ECS)! *edit* - Also, I can confirm recent reports of ND being a lot more conservative, at least in recent years. Two friends from BC are there now (one a close friend); both have told me it is WAY more conservative than BC. Take that how you will.

Duke's MTS, I think, is just as competitive. They get a lot of applicants and roughly take around 20 a year (same as ND). Regarding the ECS: when I visited last year it seemed like most of their applicants were heavily interested in classics, and thus many of their applicants had very strong backgrounds in Greek/Latin/Classical Civ/Arch. Also, ND's MTS seems to just take a lot more Catholic applicants. And honestly there are WAY more Protestants on this forum than anything else. Perhaps that is why way more were offered spots at Duke? Funny story that might make you feel worse/better: a close friend that I did my MTS with at BC applied the day of the deadline for ND's MTS (her second MTS). She wrote her personal statement that day at a bar over xmas break while having a few cold ones. Oh and she got in and is currently a student there....It truly is a shit-show out there.

Don't feel too bad. I also was rejected from the ECS. They take like 2 people a year, out of several dozen applicants. It actually is as competitive as doctoral apps, I think. It all seems to be a bit of a shit-show.

Good to know. So just to clarify: Harvard has doctoral degrees in GSAS, GSR, HDS, and NELC (relevant to most of us on this forum, I mean)? Seems a bit overkill...eh?

Actually now that I have you all here....I'm curious how one decides between HDS and the Comm. on Religion? Or even NELC? I know on their respective websites it says to go ahead and apply to each department if you desire...but does this actually work? I have read someone on here getting into one and rejected from the other...so I'm assuming one should apply to each separately? And if so, are folks submitting the same materials? This seems a bit odd given that they have many of the same faculty between departments, right?

Wait, what are we talking about? I thought they didn't have a terminal MA...? What am I missing? Or is the OP referring to HDS?

I suppose the perk of getting an MTS is you get to study at Harvard. As far as I know there are not a ton of graduate (masters) degrees that would allow you to 1) take courses relevant to Islam (which would in turn help you get a job in gov) and 2) allow you to take the relevant language work (since you have already had three years of Arabic, many uni's will not likely have a ton to offer you). I have heard of someone who did an AM at Chicago for something similar, but as I said, where else would you go? There may in fact be other master's programs more relevant to said field, but I'm skeptical of 1) their admissions rates (let's be honest: HDS takes a lot of students and their acceptance rate is much higher than many fields; but this goes for a lot of divinity schools), 2) funding (Harvard has a lot of money and many students get quite a bit), 3) the resources Harvard has (specifically related to Islamic studies, which as far as I know, is one of the top places in America to study). Your question may be better placed in another section of the forum?? /rant

The unfortunate reality is you will likely get much less funding at Duke. Isn't average funding for Div students like 25%? The flip side to that is Duke's MTS is one of the most competitive MTS degrees out there (second to ND's, I think). Though the bad thing about Duke is having to take all the required courses for an MTS degree...which I have heard leaves little room for a lot of language work and other prep doctoral programs will want to see. If Chicago's program gives you more flexibility (no idea if it does) I would go with it as my first pick. There has been a discussion in another thread about MDiv verses two masters. I chose the latter route because it allows you to spend the 3 years (or 4 in my case) on 'pure' academic work. I would urge you to consider the same. Perhaps doing an MTS/AM and then another year or two (philosophy MA, for example) to complement your theological training. Many of the folks I know with MDiv's haven't been terribly benefited from the specific MDiv training in their respective doctoral programs, unless of course their research is directly related to something pastoral. My .02. best

Outside of some sort of pastoral work/church setting I don't think it will get you very far. The exception, perhaps, is the counter-terrorism field/Islamic studies. Though I imagine if you went this route you would really have to focus on language work (what good are you without Arabic, right?). A good friend from undergrad went to HDS for his MTS. He graduated two years ago, and has been struggling to find work back where he is from (Kansas....where hardly anyone has a degree from Harvard). Long story short he ended up taking a part time gig at Home Depot because he was having a hard time getting a job. Though now he is teaching part time at a smaller college (two intro courses on Xianity). Still, he has complained to me a lot about finding a job outside of a church setting with an MTS. In short, I would think long and hard about going into debt for the degree. If you think an MTS will actually help you get into some sort of government job, then go for it. Otherwise the degree may be only useful for bragging rights at the local Starbucks. best

Yes. I would call!