Master’s Prestige

[ashiepoo72]

On 1/28/2018 at 9:24 AM, InternationalCatLover said:

That is exactly what I am worried about. I am afraid that by taking an offer from a funded MA program from a non-prestigious school I may be closing doors to the very top PhD programs. Based on what I've read and seen, it appears that connections matter the most when it comes to applying for these programs. That is, there is a strong preference for applicants from prestigious master's and bachelor's schools. I may be wrong since I am relatively new to all of this as I am switching fields, but this is my number one concern at this point.

FWIW I got my MA from a non-prestigious school and some of my colleagues ended up at tippy top programs. I didn't do too shabby my application year either, though I didn't apply to Ivies due to fit. The people who got into the top tier programs took advantage of the MA's resources and professors, killed it on original research and made sure to apply to programs with strong fit. I'm not saying prestigious programs don't care about where you get your MA, but I'm confident in saying that the work you produce at whatever MA you attend matters more than anything.

[Pacifist101]

@ashiepoo72 it's nice to hear that it's possible based on someone's experience.

[derphilosoph]

I definitely believe that funding is one of the most important factors in choosing a Master's program. This may be too anecdotal, but when I tried learning more about graduate schools, I reached out to current grad students. I wanted to conduct these "informational interviews" and get a feel for what they used in their application that would help me. I found that most of the PhD students at top schools had Master's degrees from solid programs, but not necessarily the Yales and Stanfords of their disciplines. They seemed to think that the Master's degree showed a commitment to the field, a willingness to go into the discipline full time, and overall believed that the Master's, from whichever school, had significantly helped them. The prestige/name of that Master's school never really seemed to count against them--at least based on what I noticed from my 4-5 chats.

[astroid88]

9 minutes ago, derphilosoph said:

I definitely believe that funding is one of the most important factors in choosing a Master's program. This may be too anecdotal, but when I tried learning more about graduate schools, I reached out to current grad students. I wanted to conduct these "informational interviews" and get a feel for what they used in their application that would help me. I found that most of the PhD students at top schools had Master's degrees from solid programs, but not necessarily the Yales and Stanfords of their disciplines. They seemed to think that the Master's degree showed a commitment to the field, a willingness to go into the discipline full time, and overall believed that the Master's, from whichever school, had significantly helped them. The prestige/name of that Master's school never really seemed to count against them--at least based on what I noticed from my 4-5 chats.

Thanks! I'm starting to hear back from programs now, so I'll keep this in mind as I move forward. Hopefully I get some funding!

[Pacifist101]

22 hours ago, derphilosoph said:

I definitely believe that funding is one of the most important factors in choosing a Master's program. This may be too anecdotal, but when I tried learning more about graduate schools, I reached out to current grad students. I wanted to conduct these "informational interviews" and get a feel for what they used in their application that would help me. I found that most of the PhD students at top schools had Master's degrees from solid programs, but not necessarily the Yales and Stanfords of their disciplines. They seemed to think that the Master's degree showed a commitment to the field, a willingness to go into the discipline full time, and overall believed that the Master's, from whichever school, had significantly helped them. The prestige/name of that Master's school never really seemed to count against them--at least based on what I noticed from my 4-5 chats.

What do you mean by a solid program? I have been looking at current PhD students' past educational experiences to try and figure out what it takes to get in a top 10 PhD program.

[derphilosoph]

17 minutes ago, Pacifist101 said:

What do you mean by a solid program? I have been looking at current PhD students' past educational experiences to try and figure out what it takes to get in a top 10 PhD program.

I hesitate to name specific schools. But a handful of PhD students I talked to got MAs from, say, non-top-20 schools and occasionally from the same school where they got their BA. If you're looking for educational experiences, you could try googling "PhD [insert university] MA History site:linkedin.com" and starting a search from there.

[Pacifist101]

20 minutes ago, derphilosoph said:

I hesitate to name specific schools. But a handful of PhD students I talked to got MAs from, say, non-top-20 schools and occasionally from the same school where they got their BA. If you're looking for educational experiences, you could try googling "PhD [insert university] MA History site:linkedin.com" and starting a search from there.

I see, thank you. When you were talking to students, did you just contact them without any prior communication? I've talked to someone like that before, but now wondering if I should try reaching out more.

[derphilosoph]

13 minutes ago, Pacifist101 said:

I see, thank you. When you were talking to students, did you just contact them without any prior communication? I've talked to someone like that before, but now wondering if I should try reaching out more.

Yes, since I don't have that many contacts of people who are currently in grad school, I just cold-emailed students. I first started while I was in undergrad and had informal chats/grabbing coffee with my TAs (after the course ended, so it didn't seem like I was trying to buy my grade). Of course, when you email students, don't get discouraged if they don't reply. But overall I think I had a pretty good response rate. I found them by usually Googling a POI's name + "graduate student"/"PhD candidate". Otherwise, I would just pick anyone with whom I had similar research interests on the website. Most seemed very happy to talk to a prospective student and willing to Skype.

If you feel you have outstanding questions about the program, the POI, or graduate school in general, I would say yes reach out. It helped me a lot get a feel for what I was getting into. However, I would not really recommend asking them questions about admissions just cause they might not have all the insights into what made them stand out.

[TheHessianHistorian]

31 minutes ago, derphilosoph said:

Yes, since I don't have that many contacts of people who are currently in grad school, I just cold-emailed students. I first started while I was in undergrad and had informal chats/grabbing coffee with my TAs (after the course ended, so it didn't seem like I was trying to buy my grade). Of course, when you email students, don't get discouraged if they don't reply. But overall I think I had a pretty good response rate. I found them by usually Googling a POI's name + "graduate student"/"PhD candidate". Otherwise, I would just pick anyone with whom I had similar research interests on the website. Most seemed very happy to talk to a prospective student and willing to Skype.

If you feel you have outstanding questions about the program, the POI, or graduate school in general, I would say yes reach out. It helped me a lot get a feel for what I was getting into. However, I would not really recommend asking them questions about admissions just cause they might not have all the insights into what made them stand out.

Almost every history department website now has a section that lists the names and email addresses of all their grad students. Most of the time it's in the "People" section of the department homepage. Under "People," they should have subsections like "Faculty," "Emeritus Faculty," "Departmental Staff," and "Graduate Students."

[psstein]

16 hours ago, Pacifist101 said:

 figure out what it takes to get in a top 10 PhD program.

There's no set formula beyond high quality written work, excellent recommendations, high marks, and good fit.

[Pacifist101]

5 hours ago, psstein said:

There's no set formula beyond high quality written work, excellent recommendations, high marks, and good fit.

Looking at current students' CVs helps better understand common trends and gives you a perspective based on real experiences. It's also interesting and motivational to see what people in whose spot you hope to be have accomplished.

[TheHessianHistorian]

6 hours ago, psstein said:

There's no set formula beyond high quality written work, excellent recommendations, high marks, and good fit.

I would also add to that the sometimes-frustrating but all-too-real point that most of the "top 10" PhD programs strongly, strongly prefer to admit applicants who earned their undergrad or Master's from another top/Ivy program or a foreign program. Take a look at the Princeton/Yale/Harvard current grad student profiles, and you will see endless Bachelor's degrees and Master's degrees from top 10 schools and overseas schools.

[Averroes MD]

7 minutes ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

I would also add to that the sometimes-frustrating but all-too-real point that most of the "top 10" PhD programs strongly, strongly prefer to admit applicants who earned their undergrad or Master's from another top/Ivy program or a foreign program. Take a look at the Princeton/Yale/Harvard current grad student profiles, and you will see endless Bachelor's degrees and Master's degrees from top 10 schools and overseas schools.

Also, you will find that many of them take their own, which was the case with me. It's an "unfair" advantage even, since the professors know you and have worked with you in that case. 

EDIT: I'm in religion, not history.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Averroes MD

[Pacifist101]

8 minutes ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

I would also add to that the sometimes-frustrating but all-too-real point that most of the "top 10" PhD programs strongly, strongly prefer to admit applicants who earned their undergrad or Master's from another top/Ivy program or a foreign program. Take a look at the Princeton/Yale/Harvard current grad student profiles, and you will see endless Bachelor's degrees and Master's degrees from top 10 schools and overseas schools.

Yep. Hope there's a way to get up there for those who haven't earned their degrees at top 20 schools. I know that in theory there is a way, but looking at students' profiles shows how it actually is.

[TheHessianHistorian]

4 minutes ago, Pacifist101 said:

Yep. Hope there's a way to get up there for those who haven't earned their degrees at top 20 schools. I know that in theory there is a way, but looking at students' profiles shows how it actually is.

It's looking like I'm going to be doing my Master's in History at a middle-of-the-pack state university for the next couple years. My strategy is, in 2 years' time, to apply to top-tier PhD programs as well as some other top-tier Master's programs. If I have to do a second Master's degree--say, Yale's Euro/Russ. Studies MA, or Chicago's Germanic Studies MA, or another History MA at Humboldt in Berlin--I'm willing to put in a measly extra couple years in order to get into the top-tier PhD program 4 years from now. So long as the funding situation is doable (I can subsidize a chunk of my unfunded tuition/living expenses through income from my genealogy business), I think it's a worthwhile investment for my long-term goal.

[Pacifist101]

18 minutes ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

It's looking like I'm going to be doing my Master's in History at a middle-of-the-pack state university for the next couple years. My strategy is, in 2 years' time, to apply to top-tier PhD programs as well as some other top-tier Master's programs. If I have to do a second Master's degree--say, Yale's Euro/Russ. Studies MA, or Chicago's Germanic Studies MA, or another History MA at Humboldt in Berlin--I'm willing to put in a measly extra couple years in order to get into the top-tier PhD program 4 years from now. So long as the funding situation is doable (I can subsidize a chunk of my unfunded tuition/living expenses through income from my genealogy business), I think it's a worthwhile investment for my long-term goal.

Why haven't you applied for top-tier master's programs this year? If you're willing to subsidize your expenses, wouldn't it be easier to just do one master's? Just curious.

I'm trying to come up with the best strategy for myself now. Unfortunately, money will always be an issue for me, otherwise I'd have applied for MA programs at prestigious schools.

[TheHessianHistorian]

5 minutes ago, Pacifist101 said:

Why haven't you applied for top-tier master's programs this year? If you're willing to subsidize your expenses, wouldn't it be easier to just do one master's? Just curious.

I'm trying to come up with the best strategy for myself now. Unfortunately, money will always be an issue for me, otherwise I'd have applied for MA programs at prestigious schools.

Not a bad question. Mainly because the top-tier history departments almost unanimously offer PhDs only--no terminal MAs in history. One of the few exceptions I found was Yale. Hence, I tried applying to several top-tier PhD programs but I don't think I'm getting into any of them this cycle. In addition to a lack of top-tier terminal MAs, my range of schools to apply to was further restricted by finding POIs who were a great fit for me. Chicago and Georgetown, for instance, offer terminal MAs in history, but I couldn't find a good fit with the faculty there. If I had known last fall what I know now, I might have done things differently: applied for only top-tier Master's programs, but widened my options from solely History MAs to include European Studies MAs, Germanic Studies MAs, Germanic Languages MAs, etc. 

The one decision that makes me kick myself the most is my inexplicable decision not to apply to UPenn's History MA program. I don't know what my reasoning was that it didn't get included in my list of applications this year. In the last couple weeks, I've really hit it off with Thomas Max Safley via email. It turns out we both hail from the same rural corner of Iowa. His grandparents and my great grandparents were actually friends, which I had no idea about until we started chatting and he divulged where he was from. 

[Basura]

@TheHessianHistorian I'm in a similar boat. I only applied to two MA programs. I'm choosing between a PhD at a mid-30's ranked program and a funded MA at a mid-40's ranked one. I'm not quite sure if the MA's prestige is high enough to make it worthwhile, but both are a considerable step up from my undergrad.

[Pacifist101]

@basura what are your goals and how would either decision help you achieve them?

 

[psstein]

2 hours ago, TheHessianHistorian said:

I would also add to that the sometimes-frustrating but all-too-real point that most of the "top 10" PhD programs strongly, strongly prefer to admit applicants who earned their undergrad or Master's from another top/Ivy program or a foreign program. Take a look at the Princeton/Yale/Harvard current grad student profiles, and you will see endless Bachelor's degrees and Master's degrees from top 10 schools and overseas schools.

That's true to an extent. Some top programs care far less. To use my program as an example, I know a person with a Indiana HPS MA, another with a Central European Univ. MA, and a third with a Florida State MA.

BA is a bit of a different case.

[anon4578]

2 hours ago, psstein said:

That's true to an extent. Some top programs care far less. To use my program as an example, I know a person with a Indiana HPS MA, another with a Central European Univ. MA, and a third with a Florida State MA.

BA is a bit of a different case.

I agree this is true to an extent, and there are plenty of exceptions. Princeton, for example, has admitted a number of students with only BA's from state schools in recent years. I was just offered admission to Princeton and I only have a BA from a large state school. It really goes to show that fit, luck, and the written components (SOP and writing sample) can outweigh any kind of apparent prestige your undergrad or masters institution might lack. Obviously Ivies and other top schools provide institutional benefits that others can't (well-known faculty, prestige networks, all undergrads write theses, etc) but there's hope for state school students if the pieces fall into place. I certainly applied to Ivies assuming it was futile but found that fit and connections play a huge role!