Accepted, but funding isn't livable

[bridgephil]

One of the phd programs I've been accepted to is offering me a TA stipend that's well below $15,000 a year, and that's before fees (which sound like they will be in the neighborhood of $1500 or so). The TAship would be normal, involving like 20 hrs a week. The letter didn't mention anything about additional opportunities for financial aid. Federal minimum wage (assuming full time work) is about $15,000 a year, and the school is in a high cost of living area. There's no way anybody could live on this stipend alone - they would have to get a part time job, take out loans, or apply for a heck of a lot of scholarships or grants (and hope that you manage to get them every year!). A part time job might not be so bad if you didn't have to spend 20 hrs a week on teaching assistant stuff in addition to classes, but I feel like there's no way anyone could put in the research, work, and sheer energy required to essentially work a full time job (I feel like a TAship + a part time job on the side would amount to that much), take classes, and churn out a dissertation all at the same time. 

Normally, I think of funding offers as being, on average, somewhere around $23,000 (plus or minus like a couple thousand). But I've heard of funding offers getting as low as like, 15-16,000 for cash-strapped departments (I think typically these schools are lower ranked, too), and as high as the lower to mid thirty thousands. The weirdest thing is, this school is a top 20 PGR program, so you'd think they'd be able to pay their students enough to live on, or at least pay them at or above annual federal minimum wage. Does anyone else think this is weird, or gotten offers like this themselves?

[thehegeldialectic]

5 minutes ago, bridgephil said:

Normally, I think of funding offers as being, on average, somewhere around $23,000 

More like $18,000 I would say. 

I guess the best thing to do would be to try to find roommates or commute from somewhere far away, if you end up taking the offer. 

[insert Psychologist]

Like the above poster said, 16-18k for TAship is standard. Those 23-25k figures you are referring to are for very competitive fellowships. If you ever hear someone receive more than those figures it may be because their POI has a huge prestigious grant (NSF, NIH).

Also I find it funny you mention ranking. Some of the top 25 public schools don’t even guarantee funding after the first year. The idea being that their prestige alone will recruit students and they don’t need to guarantee long term funding (looking at you Berkeley, UCLA, UT Austin ).

[Metanoia]

47 minutes ago, insert Psychologist said:

Like the above poster said, 16-18k for TAship is standard. Those 23-25k figures you are referring to are for very competitive fellowships. If you ever hear someone receive more than those figures it may be because their POI has a huge prestigious grant (NSF, NIH).

Also I find it funny you mention ranking. Some of the top 25 public schools don’t even guarantee funding after the first year. The idea being that their prestige alone will recruit students and they don’t need to guarantee long term funding (looking at you Berkeley, UCLA, UT Austin ).

This is the philosophy forum, and the question was raised in the context of funding in philosophy PhDs (which appears to differ from Psych PhDs). I'm pretty sure Berkeley, UCLA, UT Austin guarantee long term funding to admitted students. 

[insert Psychologist]

24 minutes ago, Metanoia said:

This is the philosophy forum, and the question was raised in the context of funding in philosophy PhDs (which appears to differ from Psych PhDs). I'm pretty sure Berkeley, UCLA, UT Austin guarantee long term funding to admitted students. 

Thanks for bolding where I am, but I can read. my post still applies, the long term fellow ships students get are competitive (selected by campus wide committees) and pay from TAship is barely livable in those areas with roommates. 

 

 

[sidebysondheim]

13 minutes ago, insert Psychologist said:

Thanks for bolding where I am, but I can read. my post still applies, the long term fellow ships students get are competitive (selected by campus wide committees) and pay from TAship is barely livable in those areas with roommates. 

3

3

 

Yeah, this is just not true for philosophy programs. Pretty much all top 25 or so programs give around 21k a year for 5-6 years, and that's for all admitted graduate students.* Some programs may be less (I know UW Madison and CUNY are known for being closer to 17-18k) and some are more (I'm pretty sure Duke is something ridiculous like 28k), but the same general principle holds there: all admitted students get roughly the same funding package. 

*Some programs (Georgetown) instead of waitlisting students will accept them and waitlist them for funding, but it makes the most sense to really consider this a waitlist than an acceptance since the norm is funding. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by sidebysondheim

[insert Psychologist]

5 minutes ago, sidebysondheim said:

 

Yeah, this is just not true for philosophy programs. Pretty much all top 25 or so programs give around 21k a year for 5-6 years, and that's for all admitted graduate students.* Some programs may be less (I know UW Madison and CUNY are known for being closer to 17-18k) and some are more (I'm pretty sure Duke is something ridiculous like 28k), but the same general principle holds there: all admitted students get roughly the same funding package. 

*Some programs (Georgetown) instead of waitlisting students will accept them and waitlist them for funding, but it makes the most sense to really consider this a waitlist than an acceptance since the norm is funding. 

Wow I am genuinely surprise if these public school programs are guaranteeing 20k+ funding (even through TAship) long term. Not even STEM fields are able to do that, instead they only guarantee your first year and then have careful wording saying “historically we have 100% funded our students” because public schools budget changes constantly.

No surprise that some of those privates are able to offer those figures, although Duke’s offer seems very generous. I am assuming OP’s program is a public school in a metro area though.

[Philodoxia]

1 hour ago, bridgephil said:

One of the phd programs I've been accepted to is offering me a TA stipend that's well below $15,000 a year, and that's before fees (which sound like they will be in the neighborhood of $1500 or so). The TAship would be normal, involving like 20 hrs a week. The letter didn't mention anything about additional opportunities for financial aid. Federal minimum wage (assuming full time work) is about $15,000 a year, and the school is in a high cost of living area. There's no way anybody could live on this stipend alone - they would have to get a part time job, take out loans, or apply for a heck of a lot of scholarships or grants (and hope that you manage to get them every year!). A part time job might not be so bad if you didn't have to spend 20 hrs a week on teaching assistant stuff in addition to classes, but I feel like there's no way anyone could put in the research, work, and sheer energy required to essentially work a full time job (I feel like a TAship + a part time job on the side would amount to that much), take classes, and churn out a dissertation all at the same time. 

Normally, I think of funding offers as being, on average, somewhere around $23,000 (plus or minus like a couple thousand). But I've heard of funding offers getting as low as like, 15-16,000 for cash-strapped departments (I think typically these schools are lower ranked, too), and as high as the lower to mid thirty thousands. The weirdest thing is, this school is a top 20 PGR program, so you'd think they'd be able to pay their students enough to live on, or at least pay them at or above annual federal minimum wage. Does anyone else think this is weird, or gotten offers like this themselves?

UW-Madison is well known for overworking and underfunding its students. But it's a well ranked school because PGR doesn't take that into account. Arizona's the same way. They offer very little. But it's highly ranked -- again, because faculty there are top notch. It is true, however, that some prestigious departments around high cost areas do fund very well. But even then it's not that great. I'm being given the "average" you think departments offer and, tbh, though it's great, a big chunk of it will go to housing and that's disappointing.
 

[thehegeldialectic]

30 minutes ago, sidebysondheim said:

 

Yeah, this is just not true for philosophy programs. Pretty much all top 25 or so programs give around 21k a year for 5-6 years, and that's for all admitted graduate students.*

There are plenty of top programs that give $18k. I think that you have some bad information. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by iunoionnis

[Metanoia]

56 minutes ago, insert Psychologist said:

my post still applies, the long term fellow ships students get are competitive (selected by campus wide committees) 

 

 

Nope. 5 year funding is guaranteed to everyone who is admitted. Usually, even sixth year fellowships are made available though not always guaranteed. The amount of fellowship ranges from being in the ballpark of 18k all the way up to 33k (for eg. at most Ivys).

[insert Psychologist]

5 minutes ago, Metanoia said:

Nope. 5 year funding is guaranteed to everyone who is admitted. Usually, even sixth year fellowships are made available though not always guaranteed. The amount of fellowship ranges from being in the ballpark of 18k all the way up to 33k (for eg. at most Ivys).

That may be true for privates but I was talking about public’s and specifically the 3 schools I listed. Berkeley only offers a 2 year fellowship, the 5-6 year ones are campus wide competitions. UCLA same 1-2 and same campus wide competition between department (all UC’s have this for chancellor fellowship or diversity fellowships). UT Austin has limited number of fellowships (not long termed) and relies on TAship which is about 15k (minus graduate fees).

So point still stands, public school funding at historically good schools (not necessarily top in philosophy) is not that great and OP should not be that surprised at his package. 

[fuzzylogician]

28 minutes ago, insert Psychologist said:

So point still stands, public school funding at historically good schools (not necessarily top in philosophy) is not that great and OP should not be that surprised at his package. 

I'm surprised and confused that you keep insisting that you're giving accurate information when people *in the field* are telling you otherwise. Funding varies quite a bit across fields even within the same school. OP, I'd pay more attention to what people who actually know your field are telling you. Aside from that, I'd also recommend getting in touch with some current students at this potential program to see how they make do with this stipend. It sounds on the low side to me. 

[Metanoia]

30 minutes ago, insert Psychologist said:

That may be true for privates but I was talking about public’s and specifically the 3 schools I listed. Berkeley only offers a 2 year fellowship, the 5-6 year ones are campus wide competitions. UCLA same 1-2 and same campus wide competition between department (all UC’s have this for chancellor fellowship or diversity fellowships). UT Austin has limited number of fellowships (not long termed) and relies on TAship which is about 15k (minus graduate fees).

So point still stands, public school funding at historically good schools (not necessarily top in philosophy) is not that great and OP should not be that surprised at his package. 

I can confirm that this simply isn't true for UT Austin, through an alumnus of my current institution who is a grad student at UT Austin. This person, as well as other members of the cohort were guaranteed a minimum of ~20k fellowship for 5 years (in which the last 3 involved TAing) plus grad tuition assistance. Some others who taught as associate instructors were paid more. Also, philosophy grad students are paid by the department as a whole, not by their supervisor's funds.

And 15k does sound way below par for philosophy programs, so the OP is justified in being surprised. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Metanoia

[insert Psychologist]

24 minutes ago, fuzzylogician said:

I'm surprised and confused that you keep insisting that you're giving accurate information when people *in the field* are telling you otherwise. Funding varies quite a bit across fields even within the same school. OP, I'd pay more attention to what people who actually know your field are telling you. Aside from that, I'd also recommend getting in touch with some current students at this potential program to see how they make do with this stipend. It sounds on the low side to me. 

Unless the people *in the field* received funding packages from all programs, all it requires is reading comprehension. 

Berkely - https://philosophy.berkeley.edu/graduate/funding - up to 2 year fellowship guaranteed, the rest is TAship and if you are familiar with the bay area, is not enough to live without multiple roommates. They also select top candidates to enter for campus wide fellowships which are 5-6 years and decided by a committee between all departments (I know this because I received one). 

UCLA - http://philosophy.ucla.edu/graduate/applying/funding/ - 2 year fellowship guranteed, the rest is TAship. I grew up in the area and I highly doubt the TAship is enough to live close to campus without multiple roommates. Same deal as Berkeley with the 5-6 fellowships, they are competitive between all departments. 

UT Austin - https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/philosophy/graduate/Admissions.php - Limited fellowships but they are able to provide TAships at 1520-1674 a month = 15-17k an academic year. Again Austin prices are constantly on the rise due to gentrification, to live comfortably you need roommates.

Notice how none of these schools guarantee funding past the 3rd year, this is standard practice although the funding may be unspoken guarantee's, so they don't get sued IF public funds get cut. 

Now lets take a step back and actually help the OP get relevant information on his options as oppose to flexing inner circles. 

[Gnothi_Seauton]

21 minutes ago, insert Psychologist said:

Unless the people *in the field* received funding packages from all programs, all it requires is reading comprehension. 

Berkely - https://philosophy.berkeley.edu/graduate/funding - up to 2 year fellowship guaranteed, the rest is TAship and if you are familiar with the bay area, is not enough to live without multiple roommates. They also select top candidates to enter for campus wide fellowships which are 5-6 years and decided by a committee between all departments (I know this because I received one). 

UCLA - http://philosophy.ucla.edu/graduate/applying/funding/ - 2 year fellowship guranteed, the rest is TAship. I grew up in the area and I highly doubt the TAship is enough to live close to campus without multiple roommates. Same deal as Berkeley with the 5-6 fellowships, they are competitive between all departments. 

UT Austin - https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/philosophy/graduate/Admissions.php - Limited fellowships but they are able to provide TAships at 1520-1674 a month = 15-17k an academic year. Again Austin prices are constantly on the rise due to gentrification, to live comfortably you need roommates.

Notice how none of these schools guarantee funding past the 3rd year, this is standard practice although the funding may be unspoken guarantee's, so they don't get sued IF public funds get cut. 

Now lets take a step back and actually help the OP get relevant information on his options as oppose to flexing inner circles. 

I don't understand how you can read these funding descriptions and think that these programs guarantee only two years of support.  They offer two years of fellowship (in Berkeley and UCLA's cases anyway) and three to four years (or more) of teaching.  That's 5-6 years (or more) of financial support.  UNC, where I am, guarantees six years of funding (2.5 of fellowship and 3.5 of teaching).  If you're just trying to say that they don't technically guarantee teaching support because it is contingent on the availability of public funds, then sure.  But how often in practice is a TA-ship denied in philosophy because public funds aren't available?  I've never heard of such a case.  Not saying there have never been such cases, but they are the exception and not the rule.  (Summer funding can be harder to come by, but that's not usually because of lack of funding but rather because summer courses sometimes get cancelled because of low enrollment)

[insert Psychologist]

20 minutes ago, Gnothi_Seauton said:

If you're just trying to say that they don't technically guarantee teaching support because it is contingent on the availabilitof public funds, then sure.  But how often in practice is a TA-ship denied in philosophy because public funds aren't available?  I've never heard of such a case.  Not saying there have never been such cases, but they are the exception and not the rule.  (Summer funding can be harder to come by, but that's not usually because of lack of funding but rather because summer courses sometimes get cancelled because of low enrollment)

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say because I am making sure to tailor all my post to also address the OP. 

The last thing I want is a first generation graduate student who knows little of the inner workings of graduate school to receive a funding package and then wonder why he didn’t receive the “5-6 guaranteed years of funding” they always read about online.

Addressing a previous point, while it’s great private schools offer amazing funding, the OP isn’t in that situation so let’s provide context to his funding package: he didn’t receive a prestigious fellowship and the TAship is a little low but not that much lower, and that’s okay because he is most likely at a public institution and needs to look for multiple roommates to make it work.

[bridgephil]

1 hour ago, fuzzylogician said:

 OP, I'd pay more attention to what people who actually know your field are telling you. Aside from that, I'd also recommend getting in touch with some current students at this potential program to see how they make do with this stipend. It sounds on the low side to me. 

Yeah, I know that funding varies a lot by field. I have already emailed the admissions director and asked her to put me in touch with grad students who have the same/similar funding package as me. 

Regardless of whether or not the average stipend for philosophy (not psychology) phd programs is $18,000 or $23,000, what I'm really trying to figure out is whether below $15,000 (actually, to be honest, below $14,000 prior to fees, and closer to $10,000 than $15,000 after fees) is normal. It's sounding kind of like it's not, which makes me wonder if the department basically just admitted me with partial funding and decided not to be explicit about it.

[ThePeon]

8 minutes ago, insert Psychologist said:

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say because I am making sure to tailor all my post to also address the OP. 

The last thing I want is a first generation graduate student who knows little of the inner workings of graduate school to receive a funding package and then wonder why he didn’t receive the “5-6 guaranteed years of funding” they always read about online.

Addressing a previous point, while it’s great private schools offer amazing funding, the OP isn’t in that situation so let’s provide context to his funding package: he didn’t receive a prestigious fellowship and the TAship is a little low but not that much lower, and that’s okay because he is most likely at a public institution and needs to look for multiple roommates to make it work.

I'm only an applicant, so this is based largely on internet research (though I will note I have spent a decent amount of time looking into this over the past year). However, I have never heard of a philosophy PhD student receiving a stipend that is below the $18k range, give or take a bit, much less under $15k, even at public schools.

Edited March 4, 2018 by ThePeon

[TakeruK]

13 minutes ago, bridgephil said:

Yeah, I know that funding varies a lot by field. I have already emailed the admissions director and asked her to put me in touch with grad students who have the same/similar funding package as me. 

Regardless of whether or not the average stipend for philosophy (not psychology) phd programs is $18,000 or $23,000, what I'm really trying to figure out is whether below $15,000 (actually, to be honest, below $14,000 prior to fees, and closer to $10,000 than $15,000 after fees) is normal. It's sounding kind of like it's not, which makes me wonder if the department basically just admitted me with partial funding and decided not to be explicit about it.

To be honest, it doesn't really matter much if you are admitted with partial funding or if it was full funding. Knowing that your stipend is normal isn't going to help you make ends meet. The stipend is the stipend. The question is whether or not you can afford to live on it. In addition, since some departments pay their students different amounts, you might not have gotten a partial funding offer, it might just be the lowest level full funding offer. Again though, that distinction isn't that relevant to whether your bills get paid and you get to eat.

Here's my advice:

- If you are going to a visit day, ask current grad students about affordability of the area based on their stipends. Stipends can vary within a department so be sure to ask a large cross section of students. You can even ask some of the senior students questions about the distribution of stipends and affordability such as, "Do you think most people have enough to live on?" etc. Chances are, if they have been around long enough and if the lower stipends in a department aren't livable, they would know someone who had struggled. Also, by asking this, if you see a variety of answers it may suggest there is indeed a variety of stipend levels.

- If you are not visiting, then ask to be put in touch with a bunch of students and/or contact some students yourself. Talk to them about the same thing.

- Depending on how the above conversations go, it's often okay to directly ask people what their funding packages are. I am always 100% honest about it. You can also ask students whether they have tried to negotiate their stipend. 

- If you like the program and have determined that the 15,000 is not enough to live on, the next step is to ask the department if there is any way you could receive more funding. 

- If after all of this, the funding offer is not livable, then I just consider that admission decision a rejection and move on. There was one school in my application year where I had a similar offer to what you wrote in a very high cost of living city.

[Neither Here Nor There]

41 minutes ago, bridgephil said:

Yeah, I know that funding varies a lot by field. I have already emailed the admissions director and asked her to put me in touch with grad students who have the same/similar funding package as me. 

Regardless of whether or not the average stipend for philosophy (not psychology) phd programs is $18,000 or $23,000, what I'm really trying to figure out is whether below $15,000 (actually, to be honest, below $14,000 prior to fees, and closer to $10,000 than $15,000 after fees) is normal. It's sounding kind of like it's not, which makes me wonder if the department basically just admitted me with partial funding and decided not to be explicit about it.

If it comes out to $12,000 after fees (and what about health insurance? that would make it closer to $12,000 if you are expected to pay some of that), then I think living off only $12,000 a year in any city in the US would be very difficult. That's $1000 a month. Figure at least $500 minimum for a room and utilities with roommates, more in most places, maybe if you are out in New Mexico slightly less. That only leaves another $500 for groceries, car,  cell phone, and books. I did that for my MA, but I'm not doing that again. I don't need much more than that, but I need more than that.

If it's $13,000, all that really means is that you have another $1000 a year for emergencies. 

If it's $14,000-$15,000 AND the roommate thing was only $500 a month (probably not for most places), maybe I could do it.
 

[DesertLandscaper]

On 3/3/2018 at 6:04 PM, insert Psychologist said:

Unless the people *in the field* received funding packages from all programs, all it requires is reading comprehension. 

Berkely - https://philosophy.berkeley.edu/graduate/funding - up to 2 year fellowship guaranteed, the rest is TAship and if you are familiar with the bay area, is not enough to live without multiple roommates. They also select top candidates to enter for campus wide fellowships which are 5-6 years and decided by a committee between all departments (I know this because I received one). 

UCLA - http://philosophy.ucla.edu/graduate/applying/funding/ - 2 year fellowship guranteed, the rest is TAship. I grew up in the area and I highly doubt the TAship is enough to live close to campus without multiple roommates. Same deal as Berkeley with the 5-6 fellowships, they are competitive between all departments. 

UT Austin - https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/philosophy/graduate/Admissions.php - Limited fellowships but they are able to provide TAships at 1520-1674 a month = 15-17k an academic year. Again Austin prices are constantly on the rise due to gentrification, to live comfortably you need roommates.

Notice how none of these schools guarantee funding past the 3rd year, this is standard practice although the funding may be unspoken guarantee's, so they don't get sued IF public funds get cut. 

Now lets take a step back and actually help the OP get relevant information on his options as oppose to flexing inner circles. 

To anyone concerned about this , know that insertPsychologist is entirely clueless on this matter. Departmental funding at these state schools does not track overall university funding at other departments. TAships are often "topped off" with departmental funding in order to meet some minimum guaranteed offer that is conveyed to you upon admission (yes, in a formal offer letter, not some unwritten agreement with a wink and a nod as insertPsychologist suggests). If they're a top department in an expensive city, even state schools will often offer quite high guaranteed minimums in order to be competitive (we're talking mid-20s to low-30s). A place like UT Austin will be able to offer a bit less than a place like UCLA, and similarly a place like UCLA will be able to offer a bit less than a place like Berkeley given cost of living in the Bay Area.

I find it appalling that insertPsychologist feels the need to pontificate about funding at other departments in this way and thereby spread harmful misinformation. Anyone with an offer in hand already knows insertPsychologist is full of baloney, but it would be a shame if others didn't apply having been misled.

[machineghost]

This might be helpful. It was 2009 but I don’t think that most of the packages have changed much. I was admitted into a PhD program listed on this page in 2016 and the stipend was exactly the same. Others might be a bit different but I’m guessing that they are pretty close.