Are MA programs' placement rates really that different?

[jukeboxhero]

Conventional wisdom suggests PhD placement rates should be one of - if not the - most important factor in choosing a masters program. Excluding Tufts (which it's fair to say does have a better placement rate) are there significant differences in placement rates between the other "Leiter mentioned" programs? 

I tried to dig into this today by taking a quick count of placements over the last 5 years for Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Northern Illinois, Georgia State, Brandeis, Western Michigan, Houston, and Simon Fraser. Somewhat less conventionally, I only considered students who went on to enroll in PGR ranked programs. Excluding students who didn't go on PGR programs wouldn't be the right approach for everyone, but it might make sense for someone who is (1) analytic philosophy focused and (2) wants to go on to a PhD program that maximizes their chance of ending up with a career at an R1.

Some quick caveats:  I counted quickly, I was mapping PGR ranks to programs manually, schools don't report placements the same way, etc, etc...I wouldn't be surprised if I made some mistakes.

Those caveats aside, when you limit the sample to only students that go on to PGR ranked programs, there isn't that great of difference in the average PGR ranking of the PhD programs these students end up at.

I found the average PGR placement rank for these MA programs ranged from 20 to 27, with a mean of 25, and median of 24. Houston was the low at 20, while two schools were tied for the high at 27. (This should be read as: Of students who graduated from the MA program at Houston in the last 5 years and went on to enroll in PGR ranked programs, the average PGR ranking of those programs was 20.)

(Also, I'm mentioning Houston by name because I wanted to have an example to use, so I went back an double checked my math on that school. I haven't checked my math on the other schools, so I would rather not mention them by name.)  

Given the small sample sizes of students who went to PGR ranked programs (which ranged from 13 on the low end to 36 on the high end) can you really draw any conclusions about the differences in placement rates across these schools? Add to this factors determined before these students went to these schools (ex. undergrad institution), and 'luck' in the PhD application cycle, and there could be enough of a margin of error that I haven't found any significant difference rate in placement between any of these schools. Assume this is true. Then, if you are a sufficiently driven and personable student, committed to getting the most out of whatever MA program you go to, you will end up at the same ranking of PhD program regardless of which MA program (of the ones listed above) you attend. 

I'm interested in what other people think about this (and I would be very happy for someone to make a compelling counter-argument). As someone deciding between several of the programs listed above, I had thought placement rate would be a major input into my decision. Now, I'm not so sure... 

Edited March 11, 2018 by jukeboxhero

[Hekkue]

Putting aside everything you should mentioned, common sense says that going to an MA program will increase your chances into getting to a PhD program. 

First, it will show the committee that you are capable of doing graduate level work in philosophy. 

Second, it will show them that you are committed. 

Third, and the most important point, it does not matter if go to an MA program or not. However, what is important is important to the committee is to see a person who is developed philosophically which is more likely to happen if you are an MA student. 

I am sure that after attending an MA program, you will have by then a better writing sample and statement of purpose which are important if you want to increase your chances.

[Spinozian]

Just came here to say that I went to a terminal MA program not listed above (though briefly mentioned on PGR) and got into a top 10 program. I grant it to stronger phil letters of rec and a better writing sample than I'd have had just coming out of my BA. But also, I got rejected from places not even in the US top 50. Take that as you will.

[jukeboxhero]

58 minutes ago, Hekkue said:

I am sure that after attending an MA program, you will have by then a better writing sample and statement of purpose which are important if you want to increase your chances.

 

38 minutes ago, Spinozian said:

Just came here to say that I went to a terminal MA program not listed above (though briefly mentioned on PGR) and got into a top 10 program. I grant it to stronger phil letters of rec and a better writing sample than I'd have had just coming out of my BA. But also, I got rejected from places not even in the US top 50. Take that as you will.

 

I agree with you both - I will be in a better position to apply to PhD programs, and will likely get into a better PhD program as a result of completing an MA first. This is particularly true as my undergraduate major was not philosophy. That said, it is still always nice to hear direct testimony that a terminal MA is worth it! 

[machineghost]

I happen to think that there are some pretty significant differences based on what I’ve seen. Also, you have give greater emphasis to the last couple of years, I think, to get an idea as to trends that might be emerging. It seems to me that NIU is outperforming most over the past couple of years, including what I’ve heard from NIU students this year. I say this as someone who is not at NIU! I don’t think that it’s true that a student can expect to get into the same programs (or programs with similar rankings) without regard to which program they enter.

[thehegeldialectic]

I would take into account that not all students who finish an MA end up applying for Ph.D. programs. This might be worth factoring into looking at placement. It might also be good to try to find information about the specific programs where MA students from these programs have been placed. If they have taken MA students from a program before, they likely have a positive view of the MA program. 

[Swann]

i'm wondering about the importance of where each program is making placements... 

take for example niu and uwm. in the last 5 years: niu placed 4 students at both usc and arizona and 6 at indiana-bloomington; and uwm had 4 at both pitt and san diego and 5 at riverside. (i didn't take the time to do this with the other programs, but i'd imagine they would also have schools that they have a pretty good placement connection with.)

 so if you really want to go to arizona, eg, maybe its better to take an offer from niu than uwm; and if your top choice is pitt or riverside, then uwm may be the better option. this is not to say that niu does not place students at pitt (or uwm at arizona). but only that even if the general averages of placement records are similar, it seems that the particular placement locations may also be important to consider.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Swann

[Duns Eith]

I relied on this website quite a bit:

http://www.philosophynews.com/post/2013/10/20/Graduate-School-in-Philosophy-Terminal-MA-Programs-In-Philosophy.aspx

[SlumberingTrout]

If I'm reading this right, it looks like FSU's MA program has had exactly 6 PhD placements in the past 6 years -- and one of those was to FSU's own PhD program. Given the sheer number of students in the grad program, most of whom I presume are MA students, that number strikes me as shockingly low -- "do you think you'll be the one student who gets placed this year?" seems potentially a relevant question. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Edited March 15, 2018 by SlumberingTrout

[Theodore8]

1 hour ago, SlumberingTrout said:

If I'm reading this right, it looks like FSU's MA program has had exactly 6 PhD placements in the past 6 years -- and one of those was to FSU's own PhD program. Given the sheer number of students in the grad program, most of whom I presume are MA students, that number strikes me as shockingly low -- "do you think you'll be the one student who gets placed this year?" seems potentially a relevant question. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Just looking at the Placement Record page, it doesn't look like it has been kept up very well. I mean, they list the only person in 2017 as an Assistant Professor. There's no way that a person would be hired straight out of an MA program. So whoever is supposedly updating that page is not doing their job. For students who actually apply to PhD programs out of FSU, I'd suspect their placement is rather rate is rather high.

[Rose-Colored Beetle]

As good as statistics are, I'd want to pay attention to specifics that lie behind the statistics.

I'm sure the specific professors and strengths of each MA program matter differently to different programs in idiosyncratic ways. WMU, for example, has never placed anyone to Princeton or Harvard, but they have placed at Rutgers and ND.

It'd also be interesting to see which schools each MA's students tend to apply to. It may be that students at one program tend to apply to or avoid particular programs. Perhaps they are advised to apply to different numbers of top programs.