What I wish I had done in M* - PhD Application Advice

[JDD]

I know this is pretty late in the season - most are probably gone until the fall - but I am starting my M.Div this fall and currently plan on applying for TT PhD (specifically Yale/Duke) programs when the time comes. I want to appeal to current doctoral students to hear what they wish they had done during their M* to better their chances at getting into their program of choice.

I'd love to hear from both sides - people who got into the program of their dreams and those who did not. Please take this as your chance to lecture a freshman!

[marXian]

Could you tell us what your interests are and where you decided on for your MDiv?

[JDD]

@marXian

I'll be attending PTS for an M.Div in the fall. I haven't yet decided on a concentration for Ph.D.

[marXian]

@JDD

I just mean whether you're interested in biblical studies or theology. Or history or a social science (anthro/sociology/etc.)? It makes an enormous difference. If you're interested in studying the Bible primarily you're going to need a much different preparation than if you're more interested in theology or church history or something else.

[Averroes MD]

Well, that may be the first thing - decide upon a concentration (even if somewhat general). 

Second, my regret is not utilizing the summer before and the summer after my first year to do immersion study of language. I would make aggressive use of your summers for language acquisition. For an MDiv this would be four summers, since you include the summer before starting.

 

[marXian]

5 minutes ago, Averroes MD said:

Well, that may be the first thing - decide upon a concentration (even if somewhat general). 

Second, my regret is not utilizing the summer before and the summer after my first year to do immersion study of language. I would make aggressive use of your summers for language acquisition. For an MDiv this would be four summers, since you include the summer before starting.

 

I agree with this, and it's actually a great example of why knowing whether or not you're interested in biblical studies matters.

If you're interested in theology, chances are you're just going to need French and German which can very easily be picked up over four summers. I came into my PhD program with no French and very little German and still managed to get reading proficiency in both and speaking/writing proficiency in German. It would've been a huge advantage to have had more before I started. Even if you're interested in something else (church history, liberation movements, American religious history), chances are your language requirements won't change much. The earlier in time you go, the more languages you'll need (e.g. if you're interested in the Greek Fathers, you obviously need Greek in addition to modern languages.) Many American religious historians will do Spanish instead of French or German. You'll need Latin if you plan to study any theology or church history prior to the 18th century. Regardless, it's generally not a requirement to demonstrate proficiency in these languages before you're admitted. People get admitted all the time to these kinds of tracks and pick up languages along the way (though I'd still advise to start now.)

By contrast, if you want to do something in biblical studies, you will have to demonstrate proficiency in your relevant languages before being admitted. What languages those are is really going to depend on your areas of interest but could include Koine Greek, Classical Greek, Aramaic, etc. in addition to modern languages, and you'll need to start gaining as much proficiency as possible immediately taking every advantage available at PTS to develop those skills. Someone else working in biblical studies can speak to this much better than I can, so I'll leave it there, but that's why it's important to know--at the very least--whether you imagine you'll pursue something in biblical studies or something else. 

[Rabbit Run]

1 hour ago, Averroes MD said:

Second, my regret is not utilizing the summer before and the summer after my first year to do immersion study of language. I would make aggressive use of your summers for language acquisition. For an MDiv this would be four summers, since you include the summer before starting.

 

2

This is good advice. At PTS, you can do Greek or Hebrew this Summer before your first year, which might be something to keep in mind, especially if Bible is your interest. Second, you can take intensive reading courses in French, German, or Latin at Princeton U over the Summer (you can even do two bc they have a Summer A/B set up); if you're interested in doctoral work, definitely keep this in mind for the summer after your first or second year.

Be sure to try and take courses at PU in Religion (or potentially Philosophy, German, History, Classics or whatever else fit into your concentration); a lot of PTS students, even PhD hopefuls, neglect this--which is understandable given the extensive offerings at PTS--but I think it matters some come PhD applications.

[JDD]

All very helpful tips so far. It sounds like my top two interests (American Religious History and Systematic Theology) require very different language prerequisites. I suppose it would be best to start with the standard language requirements in the M.Div program and then tailor further studies to my Ph.D program.

 

@Rabbit Run - do you recommend taking classes at PU because of the networking opportunities or for some reason in particular? I'm interested to know how this would play into PhD applications.

[Rabbit Run]

2 hours ago, JDD said:

 

@Rabbit Run - do you recommend taking classes at PU because of the networking opportunities or for some reason in particular? I'm interested to know how this would play into PhD applications.

1

In part bc of networking (especially if you're looking PU for PhD work, but mainly because it just makes you a stronger applicant: if you do well in a course over there, it can demonstrate that you can succeed not just in a seminary/divinity school setting, but in Tier 1 graduate settings too. It's not the biggest thing, but its a good feather in the cap.

[marXian]

4 hours ago, JDD said:

All very helpful tips so far. It sounds like my top two interests (American Religious History and Systematic Theology) require very different language prerequisites. I suppose it would be best to start with the standard language requirements in the M.Div program and then tailor further studies to my Ph.D program.

Actually, not that different if your interests in ST are more contemporary. In both cases, you'll most likely have to demonstrate comprehension in two modern languages. Whether you dive into deeper fluency will depend on what your dissertation topic ends up being.

As someone who is at the end of an RS program in a theology track, I can say I definitely wish I had started German earlier. It's so vital for doing anything in the ST world, even if you don't primarily study German theology. Becoming fluent in German can really open up doors for you--Fulbright and other grants to study abroad, post-doc possibilities, etc. 

Aside from languages, it's really important to try and develop a relationship with a handful of faculty so they can write you letters. I went to Fuller, which mostly offers large lecture format courses, so it was difficult to stand out to the bigger name professors. I really made it a point to take their PhD seminars or set up one on one meetings with them to talk about my work. Even better, if you find someone you really like, try to line up a directed reading with him/her. This can allow them to really see what you're capable of, and it'll give you an opportunity to develop a potential writing sample.

[eetiandao]

Try to publish something, even if in some not that outstanding academic papers. The content of the published paper may not be of high quality, but at least it shows your ability and interests of enngaging academically. And it may help you a bit among candidates who do not. 

[sacklunch]

1 hour ago, eetiandao said:

Try to publish something, even if in some not that outstanding academic papers. The content of the published paper may not be of high quality, but at least it shows your ability and interests of enngaging academically. And it may help you a bit among candidates who do not. 

I disagree with this. Such advice is usually given by (hopeful) graduate students and not faculty. I have never heard a faculty member say it's good to publish early; usually it's the opposite. The only time you should even consider publishing at this stage is in a seriously well-respected journal. Still, it's unlikely one will have the necessary training before the PhD to secure such a publication. 

[marXian]

5 hours ago, eetiandao said:

Try to publish something, even if in some not that outstanding academic papers. The content of the published paper may not be of high quality, but at least it shows your ability and interests of enngaging academically. And it may help you a bit among candidates who do not. 

I want to echo sacklunch here. Publishing as an MA student is a bad idea. The only kinds of publications that really matter for your CV are those in major journals in your field. Chances are you won't get an article published in a journal like that as an MA student. Submitting to lesser known, smaller journals, denominational journals, etc. just to get something in will not help you. It will most likely be looked upon with suspicion if you're applying to TT programs. Also, you do not want to publish things that are not of high quality. The internet exists. Digital databases exist. A low quality published article will stay with you forever. If you want to publish something, book reviews are a great entry point. They're low stakes, and with some guidance from faculty member, an MA student can write one. But adcoms honestly are more interested in your writing sample, SOP, and letters, so working to develop those things should be the focus of any prospective applicant.

[Averroes MD]

I third the objection to publishing. Better to just focus on masters thesis and make it a really good writing sample. 

[JDD]

Thanks again for the advice. If I were to sum it up in no particular order, here is what the community recommends:

• Learn languages - at least 2 ancient and 2 modern (depending on one's concentration)
• Network effectively - begin talking to professors who can help craft an application/thesis/SOP/writing sample as early as possible
• Find ways to differentiate - take classes outside of your divinity school/seminary or participate in field studies/research

Please let me know if I've missed anything. As an aside, is it normal for applicants to choose different concentrations at the different schools to which they apply for PhD studies? If so, how different should the writing sample/SOP be from one application to another?

[Rabbit Run]

6 minutes ago, JDD said:

Please let me know if I've missed anything. As an aside, is it normal for applicants to choose different concentrations at the different schools to which they apply for PhD studies? If so, how different should the writing sample/SOP be from one application to another?

1

I don't think this is weird, I applied to Theology, Ethics, and Historical Theology subfields depending on the school/faculty etc. Of course, these are all much more related than say, Ancient Near East and American Church History, but all this is to say that where you apply is dependent on how the school carves up the disciplines/where the faculty you want to work with are.

[sacklunch]

1 hour ago, JDD said:

Thanks again for the advice. If I were to sum it up in no particular order, here is what the community recommends:

• Learn languages - at least 2 ancient and 2 modern (depending on one's concentration)
• Network effectively - begin talking to professors who can help craft an application/thesis/SOP/writing sample as early as possible
• Find ways to differentiate - take classes outside of your divinity school/seminary or participate in field studies/research

Please let me know if I've missed anything. As an aside, is it normal for applicants to choose different concentrations at the different schools to which they apply for PhD studies? If so, how different should the writing sample/SOP be from one application to another?

Mostly, yes. Don't take this as gospel. You will hear very different advice from very different kinds of doctoral students at very different institutions. What works for someone will hardly matter for another: for example, having 3 ancient languages will hardly help you in getting into a systematics program if you don't have any German. You only have so much time here. The terrible part of most MDivs is they leave you very few electives, which means you will not be competitive for certain subfields without taking courses each summer or a second M* (this is why many of us in ancient history have 2-3 M*). The MDiv, for better or worse, serves two masters (church/academy); depending on your subfield, this church/academy focus can hurt or help you. Take all advice (including mine) with skepticism, especially 1) other M* students that haven't yet "proven" their advice really works and 2) old (i.e. out of touch) faculty. Find the doctoral programs you're most interested in and research their phd students; find out what they studied, what languages and degrees they have, etc. For the most part don't waste your time sucking up to faculty via email/conference; it's unlikely they will remember you and my experience is they play coy without giving prospective students much detail on how to increase your chances of acceptance. cheers.

[marXian]

6 hours ago, JDD said:

Thanks again for the advice. If I were to sum it up in no particular order, here is what the community recommends:

• Learn languages - at least 2 ancient and 2 modern (depending on one's concentration)
• Network effectively - begin talking to professors who can help craft an application/thesis/SOP/writing sample as early as possible
• Find ways to differentiate - take classes outside of your divinity school/seminary or participate in field studies/research

Please let me know if I've missed anything. As an aside, is it normal for applicants to choose different concentrations at the different schools to which they apply for PhD studies? If so, how different should the writing sample/SOP be from one application to another?

Again echoing sacklunch a bit, If you're interested in systematics or American religious history, don't waste your time on ancient languages beyond what's required for the MDiv. I took a year each of Greek and Hebrew, which I actually didn't end up needing for my degree (Fuller made some changes while I was there) and in retrospect, I wish I had focused my attention on other things and saved myself some pain. Is it cool to be able to tell hipsters at my church that their Greek or Hebrew bible verse tattoo is misspelled? Damn, it sure would be if I could remember any of it. I haven't encountered either language at all in my except in those very rare instances that a philosopher/theologian I'm reading uses a Greek word. I still remember the alphabet, so at least I can read those words out loud, even if I have to use Google Translate to figure out what they mean.

 sacklunch also brings up the very important point about the MDiv serving two masters and not leaving much time to explore specific interests. I'd say unless you are really intent on leaving the door open for ministry in the future, I would ditch the MDiv and do the MA in theological studies. Having some elective space gives you the advantage of being able to take more courses in a specific area from one professor, do a directed reading, take a course at PU, etc.

To your question, it's completely normal since schools don't always have the same tracks and you may find yourself applying to theology programs as well as religious studies programs which are going to call for different SOPs and maybe different writing samples.

[Rabbit Run]

16 hours ago, marXian said:

I would ditch the MDiv and do the MA in theological studies. Having some elective space gives you the advantage of being able to take more courses in a specific area from one professor, do a directed reading, take a course at PU, etc.

 

This is good advice, but I'd qualify it a bit for PTS, whose M.Div is fairly flexible. They tend to offer quite a bit of cross listed courses (i.e. a course in Church History that also meets a Practical Theology Req).

[11Q13]

I would counter that publishing is a bad idea. During my MA I published some dictionary articles and it was super helpful for giving me an opportunity to sort of learn the ropes of publication and make all the mistakes there in a low stakes publication. Alternatively you could wait until you're in a PhD or finished to publicly embarrass yourself...but I'd not recommend it. 

Other advice, find a mentor in your first or second semester at the latest. You want someone to root for you to get in to a PhD, that will feel a little bit of shame if you don't succeed. With a lot of the top schools your letter of rec from scholar A, so-and-so's buddy at school B, will be what gets you in. The other benefit is that you won't need to rely on the grad cafe for advice. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by 11Q13

[sacklunch]

1 hour ago, 11Q13 said:

I would counter that publishing is a bad idea. During my MA I published some dictionary articles and it was super helpful for giving me an opportunity to sort of learn the ropes of publication and make all the mistakes there in a low stakes publication. Alternatively you could wait until you're in a PhD or finished to publicly embarrass yourself...but I'd not recommend it. 

Other advice, find a mentor in your first or second semester at the latest. You want someone to root for you to get in to a PhD, that will feel a little bit of shame if you don't succeed. With a lot of the top schools your letter of rec from scholar A, so-and-so's buddy at school B, will be what gets you in. The other benefit is that you won't need to rely on the grad cafe for advice. 

Fair enough! But you certainly would admit that a dictionary entry is a far cry from a full blown article. Dictionary entries are only slightly (if at all) above the book review. But yes, I agree with you that these sort of entry-level publications are a good way to get your feet wet without alarming faculty. 

[NTAC321]

I’m holding to the traditional line of thought here, but I really don’t see an advantage to publishing *anything* until you can reasonably expect that your training is sufficient enough so as not to embarrass yourself in a few years. Consider this:

Imagine you’re on the job market. You’ve published in one of your field’s top journals, you have your beautiful new salutation, Dr. Whoever, and you’ve got a real shot at a great tenure-track job. All your dreams lie before you. But, alas, before offering you a very competitive position (all TT positions are at this point), someone on your search committee hunts down that dictionary entry or blog post of yours from several years back, and it’s filled with the kinds of mistakes one associates with non-specialists and less than nuanced thinkers. Your application, already comparable to several others, goes down a notch if only because there are a myriad of similar candidates with no such blemishes upon their resumes. You’ve potentially missed out on a good opportunity because someone took seriously the thing you wrote to earn cheap lines on your CV before your doctoral training. 

Regarding the suggestion that you should publish with a small journal or dictionary, you are far more likely to write something you regret when submitting to a low-stakes journal without peer review or very high standards. IF you submit bad work to a flagship journal, the only damage is that done to your ego when it gets rejected by the peer review process. I don’t think there’s a necessary “embarrassment phase”. When you want to submit something as a doctoral student, your advisor(s) will have read it beforehand (assuming they’re decent mentors) and your mistake won’t make it past these safeguards. 

At the risk of repeating what I and others have said elsewhere, the things that matter most in an MA program are pretty similar to those which matter for your BA: learning relevant skills/methods/languages as they relate to your field, showing you can do thorough, sound research, earning the respect and intellectual admiration of your faculty who will write glowing letters on your behalf, and having a record of interesting work which shows that you are an interesting person who’d fit well in an elite PhD program.

I’m neither an Americanist nor a theologian, but I suspect that, in your case, languages are less important. Take a grad course in philosophy/American History/whatever at PU, identify the senior faculty in your subfield then  make sure to take at least two (preferably small) classes with them early enough for them to write on your behalf in a couple of years, and, when it comes to selecting courses, keep asking yourself and your advisor “will this class help me advance my goal of getting into that dream PhD program?”

The best advice I can give is to identify and befriend the people who are a few years ahead of you, doing the things you want to be doing at that stage. If that’s being a doctoral student at Duke, contact grad students at Duke and ask them how they got there, what you should b taking at PTS/who you should be working with, etc. Hope this helps. I loved my M* program and learned a ton, and I hope the same will prove true for you.
 

[Averroes MD]

On 4/5/2018 at 9:44 AM, JDD said:

Thanks again for the advice. If I were to sum it up in no particular order, here is what the community recommends:

• Learn languages - at least 2 ancient and 2 modern (depending on one's concentration)
• Network effectively - begin talking to professors who can help craft an application/thesis/SOP/writing sample as early as possible
• Find ways to differentiate - take classes outside of your divinity school/seminary or participate in field studies/research

Please let me know if I've missed anything. As an aside, is it normal for applicants to choose different concentrations at the different schools to which they apply for PhD studies? If so, how different should the writing sample/SOP be from one application to another?

I would not say that you have to have 2 ancient and 2 modern languages before you start your PhD. That's certainly ideal, but what I've learned is that the accepted applicants are often far from ideal. But yeah, try for 2 and 2, and then you're golden.

However, I will also say that it's even more important to reach an advanced level in the primary research language in which you will be doing the bulk of your research. For example, in Islamic Studies, it's better to be someone with super advanced Arabic and a dabbling of French and/or German, rather than someone with intermediate Arabic, French & German. If languages are power bars, then the most important thing is that is your Arabic bar should be super long, and do whatever you can with the others.

I used this with regard to Islamic studies, but you can translate it to your field/sub-field.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Averroes MD

[Almaqah Thwn]

5 hours ago, NTAC321 said:

Regarding the suggestion that you should publish with a small journal or dictionary, you are far more likely to write something you regret when submitting to a low-stakes journal without peer review or very high standards. IF you submit bad work to a flagship journal, the only damage is that done to your ego when it gets rejected by the peer review process. I don’t think there’s a necessary “embarrassment phase”. When you want to submit something as a doctoral student, your advisor(s) will have read it beforehand (assuming they’re decent mentors) and your mistake won’t make it past these safeguards. 
 

I would echo this. I'm just starting my PhD program this fall and in the process of submitting my first article for publication, but it's to a peer reviewed journal and only after my MA advisor at a top-tier institution. That way, there are several checks to prevent me from saying anything stupid (And if I do, it will have already slipped by three experts in my field and probably by someone on a future search committee). 

 

Additionally, one of my professors at a top-tier institution stated to avoid publishing in collected volumes early on in your career, because they tend to have lower publication standards. The only exception to this is if the volume promises to be something leading in the field- that is, if the volume is going to be a ground-working study on a previously neglected subject or something of the sort that everyone in the future will cite. Then, it'll be fine. 

[marXian]

At the risk of dragging this out more than it should be, I do think it's helpful for early grad school career people on here to know that some distinctions should be made between the kinds of publications we're talking about.

As far as I can tell, sacklunch and I were both only talking about trying to publish full articles in smaller, lesser known journals--that's what you should avoid doing. If you can get something published in the JAAR as an MA student, then 1) I want to meet you because you're probably some kind of genius or prodigy and 2) that's great, and it most likely will only help you. If, however, you publish something in a tiny denominational journal or obscure philosophy journal or something similar, chances are articles that are not of the highest quality will get through. Those kinds of journals are a bit hungrier for content, so their standards sometimes are lower than more prestigious journals. Frankly, there is a ton of absolute garbage that is published out there. Getting past a peer review doesn't necessarily mean it's good. Publishing in a highly selective top tier journal, however, means that there are other established scholars who think your work is important and should be read by others.

A blog post, dictionary entry, or book review simply isn't in the same ballpark as a full length article in the respects explained above.

Blog posts: I actually wouldn't list a "blog post" on my CV unless it goes through some kind of peer review process, and even then, I'm not sure I would--but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't agree to posting something that was peer reviewed to a journal's electronic "blog" format (and I have). If you have a personal blog, even if you only post on academic subjects, it should be nowhere near your CV--don't even mention it.

Dictionary entries and book reviews: There's really very little risk I think in publishing a dictionary entry and definitely very little in publishing a book review. Book reviews written by MA students and early career PhD students are a dime a dozen. No one is scrutinizing the quality of those once they're published. Listing them on your CV is also pretty standard for students/scholars who don't have a peer reviewed publication yet. But once you get one or two of peer reviewed articles under your belt, I think you can take the other stuff off because, frankly, peer reviewed articles and a book contract for your dissertation are the only publication lines that really matter for the job market--i.e. the only publication types that will improve your chances.

NTAC321 is right that you shouldn't pad your CV with things that won't improve your chances on the job market or PhD applications. Hiring committees and adcoms can spot that from miles away. But that's not the same thing as simply not pursuing those opportunities. You should pursue them because, as has been said above, they get your feet wet with the academic publishing process which is daunting. You should also be willing to hear from people like your advisor that they need to come off the CV when it comes time for that as well.