Lack of autonomy

[GingerNeuro]

Hi all!

So I've reached an impasse in my graduate career and I don't know how to proceed.  Since I've been in my program (going into my 3rd year), I've had almost no creative control over what I do.  My advisor gives me projects, ones that frankly aren't very interesting to me, and I'm expected to analyze old data and publish the results.  I find myself having zero intrinsic motivation because I'm not compelled by the work.  On top of that, everyone else in my lab, including an RA, has been involved in projects that they had a hand in conceptualizing.  Additionally, recently a fellow grad student scoffed at my lack of experience doing neuroimaging and the fact that I was working on data somebody else collected. 

I feel like my advisor doesn't trust me to do my own work, and as a result, I'm stuck in this loop where I'm unmotivated because the projects I'm assigned don't interest me and due to the lack of motivation, I'm not given an latitude to do my own work.  It's as if my advisor is testing my ability by giving me these projects, not realizing that I don't tick that way.  I was a musician for many years before becoming a scientist and as such, I'm motivated by creativity.  Without the creative element, I feel like I'm doing banal, menial labor--which I've done in the past.  

So I guess my questions are: 1) is this normal, 2) if not, how do I address it, and 3) if it is normal and I'm misinterpreting the situation, how am I misinterpreting this situation?

Thanks!

-J

[BabyScientist]

I don't think that's normal. My graduate program has some administrative people you're supposed to go to with problems like this. Does yours have anyone like that? Alternatively the director of the program? It sounds like you need to tell your advisor that, as a graduate student, you need to conduct a project that you run yourself, start to finish. That's what's expected of a graduate student. The advisor is there to... advise (shocker) while you conduct your research.

If your program has some sort of support system in place for issues like this, go to them first. If not, just go directly to your PI and discuss it with them. 

[GingerNeuro]

7 minutes ago, BabyScientist said:

I don't think that's normal. My graduate program has some administrative people you're supposed to go to with problems like this. Does yours have anyone like that? Alternatively the director of the program? It sounds like you need to tell your advisor that, as a graduate student, you need to conduct a project that you run yourself, start to finish. That's what's expected of a graduate student. The advisor is there to... advise (shocker) while you conduct your research.

If your program has some sort of support system in place for issues like this, go to them first. If not, just go directly to your PI and discuss it with them. 

I've discussed it with him.  He basically told me that once I finish two more projects, he will help me come up with my own.  Fast-forward 8 months and I'm flailing around with some data that is equivocal at best, and expected to publish it with sporadic input on his end.  To place this in context, I'm analyzing diffusion tractography data and no one else in our department works on it, so I really have no one to go to for help and he has basically relegated my work to the bottom of the pile, so I rarely get help from him.  

I honestly get the feeling that he thinks I'm an idiot and given that I'm kind of a shy, introverted, and humble person, I feel like I get walked on a lot.  

At the same time, he's a really nice person a lot of the time.  So I don't know if any of this is necessarily malicious, or if he is oblivious.  He might also be manipulative.  There's really no way to know.

[BabyScientist]

So why not come up with your own project and just go to him with it? Get approval and say s tatting on this now.

Again, are there not people in place in your program that are supposed to monitor your progress who you can consult about this? 

[Meraki]

I agree with BabyScientist. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're waiting for permission or his assistance to help you develop your own project, based on your discussion with him. I would expect to develop my own idea, take it to my advisor, and discuss it from there. If you have not taken the initiative to do this before now, it is time to start carving out some time to develop your own project. This is how you will prove your creativity and skills and get your advisor interested in something you find interesting. It will also help break up some of the monotony of your current projects, which may help freshen your perspective on them and actually move them forward more than if you keep beating your head against the desk waiting for a breakthrough to come.

[GingerNeuro]

 

37 minutes ago, BabyScientist said:

So why not come up with your own project and just go to him with it? Get approval and say s tatting on this now.

Again, are there not people in place in your program that are supposed to monitor your progress who you can consult about this? 

 

9 minutes ago, Meraki said:

I agree with BabyScientist. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're waiting for permission or his assistance to help you develop your own project, based on your discussion with him. I would expect to develop my own idea, take it to my advisor, and discuss it from there. If you have not taken the initiative to do this before now, it is time to start carving out some time to develop your own project. This is how you will prove your creativity and skills and get your advisor interested in something you find interesting. It will also help break up some of the monotony of your current projects, which may help freshen your perspective on them and actually move them forward more than if you keep beating your head against the desk waiting for a breakthrough to come.

I've proposed several projects.  I've done so verbally and written detailed reports, as well as grant applications.  He has shown very little interest--but has said, "When you get these projects done, we'll sit down and think of something."  The problem is that, unlike my fellow grad students, I'm funded directly by his grant, rather than the department--which is how everyone else is funded (with the exception of GRFP fellows).  

[GingerNeuro]

1 minute ago, GingerNeuro said:

Again, are there not people in place in your program that are supposed to monitor your progress who you can consult about this? 

Sort of.  We just approved secondary advisors.  We have a department head, but she is very close to my advisor, and I'm not super comfortable going to her.

[BabyScientist]

4 minutes ago, GingerNeuro said:

Sort of.  We just approved secondary advisors.  We have a department head, but she is very close to my advisor, and I'm not super comfortable going to her.

Go to one of these people. Even another PI in your department who you feel comfortable with. That is no way for a graduate student to be regarded and consulting people in the program about your problem is the best way to solve it. 

[GingerNeuro]

34 minutes ago, BabyScientist said:

Go to one of these people. Even another PI in your department who you feel comfortable with. That is no way for a graduate student to be regarded and consulting people in the program about your problem is the best way to solve it. 

I'm going to.  My only concern is that the department head is required to report my concern to my advisor, I believe.  

[BabyScientist]

Just now, GingerNeuro said:

I'm going to.  My only concern is that the department head is required to report my concern to my advisor, I believe.  

I imagine it depends on the situation. They should understand the social dynamics enough to know not to screw your relationship with your advisor. Theyll likely just give you advice on how to proceed, and only go to your advisor if your directed efforts aren't effective. 

[Sigaba]

MOO, @GingerNeuro, your advisor has given you a path to secure a higher level of autonomy. You have before you the opportunity to get what you want. 

The challenge you face is that the path appears rocky. What skills do you need to improve to navigate the obstacles? How might realigning your constellation of motivational factors improve your effectiveness. 

I don't agree that bringing additional members of your department into this situation as suggested above is a good tactic at this point. "I don't tick that way" is likely to get a different response than one prefers.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Sigaba

[GingerNeuro]

59 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

MOO, @GingerNeuro, your advisor has given you a path to secure a higher level of autonomy. You have before you the opportunity to get what you want. 

The challenge you face is that the path appears rocky. What skills do you need to improve to navigate the obstacles? How might realigning your constellation of motivational factors improve your effectiveness. 

I don't agree that bringing additional members of your department into this situation as suggested above is a good tactic at this point. "I don't tick that way" is likely to get a different response than one prefers.

"I don't tick that way" is a way of saying that I'm not going to excel doing work that I have no interest in.  Would you excel doing work you have no passion for?  To me, Ph.D. training is intended to make you an independent, thoughtful, and erudite scholar, capable of synthesizing knowledge to produce meaningful, expedient work.  It is not a means of receiving technical training in order to complete projects which one has no interest in.  If he doesn't believe in my abilities, perhaps he shouldn't have agreed to take me on as a graduate student.  Correct me if I'm wrong in thinking this way--I realize that I asked for advice and am being annoying right now (this is me thinking on the page). 

To better contextualize this, my friend owns a business and recently told me that she has given up her tendencies to micro-manage her employees, realizing that they are much better at their job when given some creative freedom.  I don't think it's too much to ask that I be given more independence, especially considering I'm the first grad student to publish under my advisor's supervision.  Which is one reason I find my circumstances so perplexing--I was given the freedom to draft an extensive review article, finished it in a timely manner, and it was published swiftly thereafter.  So why am I now being denied the freedom to develop my own projects?

[Sigaba]

10 minutes ago, GingerNeuro said:

So why am I now being denied the freedom to develop my own projects?

When you were a musician making a living off your craft, would you have put your reputation at risk on the say so of someone claiming to be ready to play an extended solo during an important gig but unwilling to perform basic tasks you had set forth to establish his ability to play unaccompanied?

You are receiving professional training in a complex domain of knowledge.  You are resisting that training because it's not tailored to your individual preferences and needs. You can either figure out how to get around that rock in your path or keep walking into it.

[GingerNeuro]

2 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

When you were a musician making a living off your craft, would you have put your reputation at risk on the say so of someone claiming to be ready to play an extended solo during an important gig but unwilling to perform basic tasks you had set forth to establish his ability to play unaccompanied?

You are receiving professional training in a complex domain of knowledge.  You are resisting that training because it's not tailored to your individual preferences and needs. You can either figure out how to get around that rock in your path or keep walking into it.

In fact, what I learned from being a band leader for years is that trying to control the performance of everyone in the band results in resentment and sub-par material.  For years, my partner sang in a band with me, and was pretty inexperienced.  She came to me for guidance at the beginning and I did my best.  However, at some point, she developed autonomy and became a great performer, but I was too busy trying to control things to see that, and she never lived up to her potential because she always felt like she was walking on egg shells.  Now, we are back in a band together--she is the singer, and I don't tell her anything.  She has complete creative freedom.  What's the outcome?  She is better than she's ever been.  

[Sigaba]

1 minute ago, GingerNeuro said:

In fact, what I learned from being a band leader for years is that trying to control the performance of everyone in the band results in resentment and sub-par material.   

You are assuming that you're as good of a scientist as you are as a musician. However, your own posts in this thread suggest that's not quite the case yet from the POV of those who matter the most.

Every moment you spend recycling the same argument is another moment spent going down the same path that is causing you unhappiness. I think that you need to find a way to subordinate yourself to the training you're receiving, complete the tasks  you have on your plate,  and hit pause on the loop saying that you're not free.

[BabyScientist]

6 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

You are receiving professional training in a complex domain of knowledge.  You are resisting that training because it's not tailored to your individual preferences and needs.

It doesn't sound to me like he/she is being trained to do research in this complex domain of knowledge. Part of doing a PhD is learning to develop your own ideas, and this advisor doesn't seem to be allowing that to occur. When you communicate this problem to anyone, it shouldn't be posed as "I am a creative person and want to be given room for creativity", it should be posed as "I don't feel that I am being given the proper training/training that will enable me to be an independent researcher in the future."

You do the research that your PI is funding you to do. That's just how it is. But as a PI who took on a PhD student, he has to be giving you the proper training to create a scientist who can do his/her own research in the future, without always having to be directed. 

Discussing this issue with the right people will give you a better idea of whether or not you are getting proper training to eventually become an independent researcher, which ultimately is the purpose of PhD programs in science.

[Sigaba]

1 minute ago, BabyScientist said:

Part of doing a PhD is learning to develop your own ideas, and this advisor doesn't seem to be allowing that to occur.

Are you currently in a graduate program that gives you insight into how the training is done? 

[BabyScientist]

3 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

Are you currently in a graduate program that gives you insight into how the training is done? 

Yes. Sounds like I'm the same kind of PhD program as the poster. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by BabyScientist

[Sigaba]

3 minutes ago, BabyScientist said:

Yes. Sounds like I'm the same kind of PhD program as the poster. 

It's my understanding from reading your posts that you've been admitted to programs and you're about to enter your first year. Is there something I am missing? 

In any case, it's Nisei Week, so in honor of Noriyuki "Pat" Morita...

 

[BabyScientist]

55 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

It's my understanding from reading your posts that you've been admitted to programs and you're about to enter your first year. Is there something I am missing? 

In any case, it's Nisei Week, so in honor of Noriyuki "Pat" Morita...

 

Does that invalidate my experiences and those of all the upperclassmen I've communicated with? I've been in the field of biomedical research for years. I've been around enough PhD students and PhD programs to know what is expected in and by them. 

We have a support system in place in my program exactly for this reason. Our administration has warned that if at any point we feel we aren't being treated well in our opinion, we should go to them. My being a first year is irrelevant to what I know a graduate program is supposed to be. In fact, it may even strengthen my opinion, as I've just recently been through all the recruitment events in which they tell you what PhD programs are all about and what to expect. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by BabyScientist

[lmb123]

@GingerNeuro, it's hard to tell if going to others in your dept/school/program is the right step - but if you do decide to bring the issue up, I would focus on the fact that you are not being given a project that you can work on start-to-finish. Whether or not your PI gets to assign projects may be up for debate, but you definitely should not just be analyzing data produced by others on projects that are not your own. I wouldn't focus on whether or not you are interested in the projects you're working on, but rather that you are not being given the opportunity to produce your own data.

[GingerNeuro]

4 minutes ago, lmb123 said:

@GingerNeuro, it's hard to tell if going to others in your dept/school/program is the right step - but if you do decide to bring the issue up, I would focus on the fact that you are not being given a project that you can work on start-to-finish. Whether or not your PI gets to assign projects may be up for debate, but you definitely should not just be analyzing data produced by others on projects that are not your own. I wouldn't focus on whether or not you are interested in the projects you're working on, but rather that you are not being given the opportunity to produce your own data.

I have collected data in the past.  Albeit, I'm in a Cognitive Neuroscience program and I've collected hardly any imaging data.  I did one behavioral study where I collected all of the data, and some interesting results were obtained, but my advisor would rather me work on this old data.  I've also collected data for other projects which I'm supposedly a secondary author on, but I had no part in conceiving of the project--in fact, our lab manager, who started off as an undergrad RA, was given a project that was of his design, and I've been asked to collect data for that on multiple occasions.  Is it wrong of me to feel belittled by that experience?  

[Meraki]

I suspect this can be program and even advisor specific. However, since OP is funded by a grant, it is expected that they contribute to work that is being funded - that's what they're being paid for. However, at some point, the OP will need to develop a project for their dissertation, and if they are nearing that point and not getting the training and guidance necessary to conduct an independent study, it could delay completion of the program. It also seems that other students in the same lab  did not have the same experience as the OP, suggesting that the issue may be something pertaining specifically to the OP's relationship with the advisor, or perhaps that OP is funded by a grant and not the department, unlike their peers. The OP needs to figure out what the issue is and how to cope with and make the best of it.

I agree that getting other faculty involved at this point may not be the best course of action. And I do agree that it is possible to find ways of motivating oneself when doing mundane or undesirable tasks. I think having an open conversation with the advisor about their expectations and asking for clarification on what needs improving is best. Particularly, I would ask for a conversation about my progress in the program so it is clear the meeting is not to discuss the current projects, but to discuss my development.

It is possible that this is just not a good advisor-student  pairing, but unless you're able to change labs, going to superiors or other faculty before exhausting other options may not make the situation better. Getting advice from them is one thing, but other faculty trying to influence your advisor could make for an awkward experience.

In the meantime, I would take Sigaba's advice to keep pushing through your current projects, find ways to brighten the experience, make a game or competition of it somehow...something. You still need to demonstrate your skills and worthiness and these are the only options to do so at this current moment. 

[Meraki]

I dont think it's wrong to feel belittled by that experience, but your educational experience will be more pleasant if you do not compare it to that of your peers' and instead try to focus on your own development. There are likely things going on that you are unaware of that are causing those things to happen for your peers, and it may have nothing to do with you and your skills. I know that can be hard given how you feel right now, but trust me, it makes things easier in the long run when you're not always comparing yourself to others. 

[GingerNeuro]

1 minute ago, Meraki said:

I dont think it's wrong to feel belittled by that experience, but your educational experience will be more pleasant if you do not compare it to that of your peers' and instead try to focus on your own development. There are likely things going on that you are unaware of that are causing those things to happen for your peers, and it may have nothing to do with you and your skills. I know that can be hard given how you feel right now, but trust me, it makes things easier in the long run when you're not always comparing yourself to others. 

RIght.  I agree regarding comparing myself to others and have even become friends with the Lab Manager.  But it's not so much about comparing as it is being expected to do work for this person who is not even a grad student.  I guess I'm having a hard time digesting the notion that one should abandon one's dignity for the sake of completing a degree.  At what point does a person say to him or herself, "pursuing this degree is not worth reducing myself to a subordinate peon."