What Is a Good Math Subject Test Score for Stats Ph.D.?

[diamondiana]

Hi everyone. As you know, Stanford requires the math subject test to be taken by Ph.D. applicants. Several other big name schools (UW, UCB, etc.) strongly recommend the test. I'm signed up to take the test, but I'm worried about my score. I'm planning to automatically send my scores to Stanford but wait until I receive the scores back (in about 5 weeks) before deciding whether to send them to other schools. Is this a good plan? What is considered a good score for a stats Ph.D. applicant? Basically, how bad would my score need to be such that sending the score would be worse than submitting no score at all? 

Thanks! 

[Gauss2017]

I would not submit subject test scores to Berkeley or Washington 

[diamondiana]

9 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

I would not submit subject test scores to Berkeley or Washington 

Why not? Berkeley and Washington do not view subject test scores favorably, even if the scores are excellent? Or do you mean that any score less than excellent would harm one's chances of admission to these schools? 

[Gauss2017]

I dont think the scores can help you at Berkeley or Washington and can only hurt you.  Many schools realize that subject test scores are a very poor predictor of success and have been used in the past to discriminate against women and minorities.

[diamondiana]

17 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

I dont think the scores can help you at Berkeley or Washington and can only hurt you.  Many schools realize that subject test scores are a very poor predictor of success and have been used in the past to discriminate against women and minorities.

Thanks for the info! I will be cautious when choosing which schools to send the scores. 

[MathStat]

@diamondiana Anything above 80% is considered a good score and should be submitted. However, I submitted my low 70s percentile score to all the schools I'm applying to, including the ones you mentioned. 

[speowi]

Yeah I have to say I don’t understand Gauss2017’s reasoning at all here. You should submit the subject GRE if you did well on it.

Edited October 28, 2018 by speowi

[Gauss2017]

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/09/17/decision-penns-philosophy-department-renews-debate-about-gre

 

I hope this helps you understand

[Schweinchen]

I just posted some (pretty reliable) hearsay about this in another thread; what is considered good mainly depends on where you're from:

 

 

[speowi]

15 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/09/17/decision-penns-philosophy-department-renews-debate-about-gre

 

I hope this helps you understand

Um lol. Are you serious right now? I don’t mean to be rude; I’m asking this sincerely because the link you provide is almost entirely irrelevant to your extremely broad claim that submitting a math subject GRE is NEVER helpful for one’s chances of admission. The fact that the UPenn *Philosophy Department* no longer considers the *general GRE* has virtually nothing to do with whether it is helpful for an applicant to *statistics* Ph.D. programs to provide his or her *math subject GRE* score if it is sufficiently high. If you really do think that the link you provided forms the basis of your claim, then, to be frank, I seriously doubt your reasoning and judgment.

Edited October 29, 2018 by speowi

[Gauss2017]

Lol are you serious i never said that the math GRE was never helpful  

One professor indicated that the GRE is a better indicator of sex and color of your skin than anything else. Here Is something for you to look at. http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/11/07/gre-bias

Here is another thing for you to read. https://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7504-303a

One only needs to make  inferences to see the problem. I seriously doubt your reasoning and judgment.  You can choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution

[speowi]

4 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

Lol are you serious i never said that the math GRE was never helpful  

One professor indicated that the GRE is a better indicator of sex and color of your skin than anything else. Here Is something for you to look at. http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/11/07/gre-bias

Here is another thing for you to read. https://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/articles/10.1038/nj7504-303a

One only needs to make  inferences to see the problem. I seriously doubt your reasoning and judgment.  You can choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution

OK, excuse me; I misremembered. You only said that submitting one's math subject GRE score can't help at Berkeley or Washington. My interpretation of your below post was that (a) you're claiming that the math subject GRE score is NEVER helpful at Berkeley or Washington, since you didn't cite any reason specific to this particular applicant's situation that wouldn't apply to any other applicant, and (b) that you don't mean this to be specific to Berkeley or Washington, but rather simply mentioned those schools because the OP did as examples, which suggests that you think the math subject GRE scores can't help at other schools either. If my interpretation is not correct, then I apologize but also think you need to do a better job explaining your position so that other applicants who read your post don't get the idea that the math subject GRE score isn't helpful to them either.

On 10/26/2018 at 8:34 PM, Gauss2017 said:

I dont think the scores can help you at Berkeley or Washington and can only hurt you.  Many schools realize that subject test scores are a very poor predictor of success and have been used in the past to discriminate against women and minorities.

That being said, there's still the primary issue that the evidence you provide in support of your claim that the math subject GRE score can't help at Berkeley or Washington is extremely flimsy at best. Let me be clear for you about the flaw in your argument, since it is apparent that you still don't get it.

Whether or not the general GRE is predictive of success (in any graduate program) is irrelevant.

Whether or not the math subject GRE is predictive of success (in any graduate program) is irrelevant.

Whether or not some professors in some programs in some other fields don't think the general GRE should be used in their admissions decisions is irrelevant.

What is relevant is whether statistics Ph.D. admissions committees consider applicants' math subject GRE scores when making their admissions decisions.

All of the links you've cited are irrelevant because they don't speak to the actual question at issue. I can agree with you that the general GRE is a bad predictor of success in some or all graduate school programs, and I can even agree with you that graduate school programs should not consider any standardized test scores when making admissions decisions. But that says virtually nothing about whether or not, as a matter of fact, it can be helpful to the OP's chances of admission for the OP to include their math subject GRE score in their applications.

Edited October 29, 2018 by speowi

[bayessays]

Gauss's advice is completely irrelevant here and not worth engaging. MathStats's is pretty dead on. I would say definitely submit anything over 80. It depends a little on your profile. If you are a 4.0 math major from MIT, a 70% score will probably hurt you. If you are a 3.6 student from directional state university, it will probably help. 

[insert_name_here]

Yeah, don't feed the troll guys, Gauss seems to enjoy anonymously yelling at people online about politics, e.g. the below thread 

.

[Gauss2017]

• It is likewise apparent that you still don't get it.   You admitted that subject tests should not be used in the admission process yet you still think that students should voluntarily submit their scores.  That is not a solution but something that exacerbates an already huge problem adversely affecting large segments of academia and our society as a whole. I don't champion something that I know to be wrong.  I think you and I differ on this point.
• As a matter of fact you have no evidence to support your position.  So your reflections on my comments are much more than applicable to your opinions which are not grounded in fact. 
• I am sure you are aware  that Berkeley looks for a diverse student body in their graduate admissions and uses a holistic approach?    This is what UW has to say about the students they look for "We welcome applicants from culturally diverse backgrounds.  Consistent with our goal of enhancing the intellectual excellence of the department and University of Washington community, we actively welcome students from diverse backgrounds and students who have worked with diverse groups." 

[Gauss2017]

Insert_name_here  I am not a troll.  I am some one who cares about society and justice.  I would hope you care the same.

[speowi]

4 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

Insert_name_here  I am not a troll.  I am some one who cares about society and justice.  I would hope you care the same.

I don't think you're a troll. I just think you have a demonstrated record, based on your post history and this conversation, of failing to apply basic analytical reasoning skills.

To be clear, I care about, as you put it, society and justice as well. We may even share the same views on many such issues. But it's evident that your reasons for your views are fundamentally flawed and require rethinking. If you really care about these issues, I would suggest that you relearn some of the basics of logic and argumentation before you engage with other people further. I mean this sincerely; these skills would help you immensely in many aspects of life and make people more receptive to your claims.

4 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

• It is likewise apparent that you still don't get it.   You admitted that subject tests should not be used in the admission process yet you still think that students should voluntarily submit their scores.  That is not a solution but something that exacerbates an already huge problem adversely affecting large segments of academia and our society as a whole. I don't champion something that I know to be wrong.  I think you and I differ on this point.
• As a matter of fact you have no evidence to support your position.  So your reflections on my comments are much more than applicable to your opinions which are not grounded in fact. 
• I am sure you are aware  that Berkeley looks for a diverse student body in their graduate admissions and uses a holistic approach?    This is what UW has to say about the students they look for "We welcome applicants from culturally diverse backgrounds.  Consistent with our goal of enhancing the intellectual excellence of the department and University of Washington community, we actively welcome students from diverse backgrounds and students who have worked with diverse groups." 

Regarding your first bullet point: Again, I am not making the normative claim that students should submit their scores. I am refuting your descriptive claim that submitting very strong math subject GRE scores can never improve applicants' chances of admission. Please understand this crucial distinction before you respond. Here, I'll even help you out with another example.

Descriptive Claim: If I pick up the stack of $10,000 that someone else left on the sidewalk, I will have improved my financial situation.

Normative Claim: I should not pick up the stack of $10,000 because it doesn't belong to me.

Both of these statements can be simultaneously true. The issue is that the OP was asking a descriptive question. The question was whether submitting a math subject GRE score can improve one's chances of admission. That is entirely separate from the normative question of whether she should submit her math subject GRE score. You're attempting to support your descriptive claim that submitting a math subject GRE score doesn't help at Berkeley or Washington with a prescriptive argument. That's just poor logic.

Regarding your second bullet point: The evidence to support my position that there are some scenarios where a very strong math subject GRE score can benefit an applicant's chances of admission at Berkeley and Washington is twofold. First is the fact that both of these programs explicitly say that they will accept an applicant's math subject GRE score. Why would they say this if the math subject GRE score can only hurt applicants' chances of admission? You're seriously telling us that these programs are inviting applicants to submit these scores so that they can at best hurt their own chances of admission? Second is the fact that it is well-known that certain types of applicants would benefit from demonstrating some level of mathematical proficiency through the math subject GRE. These include applicants who haven't taken rigorous math courses in college, applicants who believe that their grades in math classes are not reflective of their mathematical abilities, and international applicants. This is well-known and has been discussed throughout this forum, so I hope I don't need to provide all of the links here. Do you know how to search for things? I ask because a while back you claimed out of nowhere that Stanford receives 400-500 Ph.D. applications each year when a simple search of Stanford's own website shows that they receive about 120 Ph.D. applications each year. If you need help, please let me know so that I can facilitate this process for you. Again, I mean this sincerely. I would genuinely be happy to help if you need it because I think it would benefit the level of discourse here.

Regarding your third bullet point: I am indeed aware of this fact. It is hardly relevant. If you think that programs can't simultaneously look for a diverse student body/conduct holistic admissions and consider standardized test scores that are known to correlate with race and gender, then I guess you somehow haven't heard of practically every four-year college in the United States that has a household name. Is there some particular reason that colleges are able to consider standardized test scores while conducting holistic admissions but statistics Ph.D. programs can't?

I'm going to take insert_name_here's advice and stop here. If you manage to come up with an actually insightful response, then maybe I'll continue this conversation. But I'm not holding my breath.

Edited October 30, 2018 by speowi
Removed some identifying info

[Gauss2017]

I on the other hand think you are the one not me who fails to possess basic analytical reasoning skills.  Your attempt at bullying your way through an argument will not work.  I never said that one should never report their GRE subject score.  You acknowledged your mistake above in regards to what you thought I said about submitting GRE scores but then in the last post repeated the claim you have previously acknowledged was wrong.

When you describe normative and descriptive claims frankly you are using just poor logic.  You are making the assumption that there are only two choices.  If one sees 10,000 on the sidewalk you indicate that there are only two choices 1) picking it up for yourself or 2) walking past it.  There are a number of other choices.  One of which is picking up the money and returning it to the rightful owner or the police.  I have been faced personally with this type of situation many times in the past and I have taken the time to seek out the rightful owner of the property. Sometimes we have to have take the morally superior action.

You previously indicated that the GRE subject test is a bad predictor of success and should not be used in the admissions process but then amazingly list a whole group of people that the subject test could and should help.  That makes no logical sense. As stated previously the test is at best a predictor of race and gender. It is a means to discriminate.  Why would you want to help in such a process?

Finally you have a misunderstanding of evidence.  Just because Cal and UW say it is okay to submit the subject test doesnt mean it will do you any good.  Do you have any in depth knowledge of the way they conduct their admissions process or are you engaging in speculation? I can point you in the direction of some good online evidence classes if you would like.  There is a huge difference between evidence and argument.  If you need help please let me know.

[speowi]

...Clearly, this is hopeless.

4 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

When you describe normative and descriptive claims frankly you are using just poor logic.  You are making the assumption that there are only two choices.  If one sees 10,000 on the sidewalk you indicate that there are only two choices 1) picking it up for yourself or 2) walking past it.  There are a number of other choices.  One of which is picking up the money and returning it to the rightful owner or the police.  I have been faced personally with this type of situation many times in the past and I have taken the time to seek out the rightful owner of the property. Sometimes we have to have take the morally superior action.

This made me laugh.

Rather than responding to your post, I think I'll just let you have the last word and stop the conversation here.

Edited October 30, 2018 by speowi

[hnn12]

11 hours ago, Gauss2017 said:

I on the other hand think you are the one not me who fails to possess basic analytical reasoning skills.  Your attempt at bullying your way through an argument will not work.  I never said that one should never report their GRE subject score.  You acknowledged your mistake above in regards to what you thought I said about submitting GRE scores but then in the last post repeated the claim you have previously acknowledged was wrong.

When you describe normative and descriptive claims frankly you are using just poor logic.  You are making the assumption that there are only two choices.  If one sees 10,000 on the sidewalk you indicate that there are only two choices 1) picking it up for yourself or 2) walking past it.  There are a number of other choices.  One of which is picking up the money and returning it to the rightful owner or the police.  I have been faced personally with this type of situation many times in the past and I have taken the time to seek out the rightful owner of the property. Sometimes we have to have take the morally superior action.

You previously indicated that the GRE subject test is a bad predictor of success and should not be used in the admissions process but then amazingly list a whole group of people that the subject test could and should help.  That makes no logical sense. As stated previously the test is at best a predictor of race and gender. It is a means to discriminate.  Why would you want to help in such a process?

Finally you have a misunderstanding of evidence.  Just because Cal and UW say it is okay to submit the subject test doesnt mean it will do you any good.  Do you have any in depth knowledge of the way they conduct their admissions process or are you engaging in speculation? I can point you in the direction of some good online evidence classes if you would like.  There is a huge difference between evidence and argument.  If you need help please let me know.

You are the one who really needs to revise your logical reasoning. People are saying that a good score in the GRE subject test MAY OR MAY NOT help you, depending on the admission process behind the scene, which we don't know. Some schools don't put a lot of emphasis in it and the score, therefore, doesn't help even if it's amazing. But others may need it. That's why Stanford explicitly requests it for the PhD program in Statistics. But you are making the bold claim that submitting it WILL NOT help and CAN ONLY hurt the applicant. A good score may not help, but it doesn't mean the adcom will punish you for having it.  

OK, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the GRE is a discrimination against certain races and gender, and one should not take part in it because it's morally wrong. Then you can just voice your opinion frankly. Trust me, everyone is aware that it's a bad test and nowhere near an indicator of success. Don't support your own cause by making misleading statements.