family vs graduate school

[Dith Vader]

This is just something I'd like to share and perhaps discuss, because I want to know if there are other people out there like me.

So I'm a 21-year-old female Chinese-Indonesian (as in Peranakan, Indonesian with Chinese lineage, not dual nationality) who has applied and been accepted to various graduate schools in the U.S. for this coming Fall 2010 for journalism.

My family's pretty well-off in Indonesia, so there's a set way of conducting things... For example, my usual weekend is spent being introduced to other 'respectable' families, especially those with sons of 'ripe age', and/or going on blind dates set by my parents and his parents. Because I'm already over 20, you see. Note that I don't mind all that, I genuinely think that some of those people I've been introduced to are intelligent and kind. I'm glad to know them. I am also not against semi-arranged marriages, because (say what you will) I believe in compatibility and common goals over love and chemistry.

But recently, after hearing about my acceptances, my parents have been urging me to cancel my decision to go to grad school. They have the best intentions, I sincerely believe that, but it boggles my mind that they cited reasons such as "men would be scared of you if you're too smart" and "when you come back, you'll be 22-23 and you'll have shorter time to find a husband" and "stop being so idealistic and selfish and try harder to settle down".

I am worried. I do want to marry and settle down and rule over a big house like a proper taitai (Chinese madam) with my plump and beautifully-dressed children going to prestigious and expensive schools. It's a very appealing image. And the road I'm choosing, going to graduate school, taking journalism, doesn't fit with that image. On the other hand, I think I'll be awfully unhappy if I were to be confined to the role of housewife only. I don't do polite conversations, I invite debate. I don't cover up family scandals, I want to uncover them and show people the way things really are. I'm horrible at sucking up and better at being painfully frank. And I think I'm going to be one terrible and bored housewife.

But I'm scared of turning into a cynical old unmarried journalist either

Edited March 25, 2010 by Dith Vader

[joro]

Why would guys be scared of a smart girl? And perhaps you can meet some nice guys in grad school.

[liszt85]

But I'm scared of turning into a cynical old unmarried journalist either

You will regret being a bored housewife than being an old unmarried journalist, I guarantee it. But of course, there is no way to know it because if it does happen, its going to be either of the two. Then again, neither might happen. You might be a happy married journalist, married to someone as intelligent as you are (your kids can still go to expensive schools and you can still rule the house). How does that sound?

[eucalyptus]

I think I have some idea of what you're facing, although I'm not in the same position myself. My family is Indian, and although I grew up in Canada, most of my cousins are still in India. My mother's side of the family is quite traditional and the semi-arranged marriages you're talking about are not all uncommon in my family. Being a mother/wife and having a fulfilling career are not incompatible, but you need to be clear with yourself about what you really want and need to be happy. Try picking apart which aspects of a career in journalism and a future as a "proper taitai" you are really drawn to. Would you need to be a top-flight journalist to be happy? That would probably mean devoting a ton of your time to your career, and perhaps delaying marriage/baby-making until your career is off the ground. Would you have to be settled in Indonesia with a rich husband to be happy? That might be harder to reconcile with a career, since some traditional men might be intimidated by or turned off by your desire to work. It would also probably rule out most of the guys you'll meet at graduate school, if they don't want to move to Indonesia (although you could luck out of course!). There are lots of questions to consider, but once you figure out which things you need to be happy, you'll be able to make a decision without any regrets.

And your parents are right in thinking that some guys will be intimidated by you being smarter, having more education, and/or making more money than them - possibly quite a few of them if Indonesia is anything like India in terms of progressiveness. However, if having this career is important to you, those aren't the guys you want to be married to anyhow.

[Jae B.]

But I'm scared of turning into a cynical old unmarried journalist either

No no, not going to happen. Rather, that doesn't have to happen!

I know it's easier said than done, and I'm not saying you can "have it all" per say, but you do not have to decide between your career and having a family. It just takes the right person. I'm sure there are happily married journalists out there -- if there weren't, there'd be self-help books just for us!

For starters, one good quote I've heard is to be skeptical, not cynical. I try to remind myself of that, periodically.

Second, I certainly expect to have a demanding career as a journalist. It's going to be rough at times. I'm definitely going to need a partner to make life smoother.

Honestly, I believe whoever will stand by me, love me, try to make my life easier and help me be happy -- despite my crazy schedule, pressures and self-inflicted stresses -- will be the best guy!

I wouldn't want to anyone else, anyway.

Who knows...you may find an even better guy because of this experience! Tell your parents not to worry, and to keep the faith.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Jae B.

[Dith Vader]

Why would guys be scared of a smart girl? And perhaps you can meet some nice guys in grad school.

I'd say 50% of the guys I've met are intimidated, while the rest didn't show it but might also feel the same way.

And... as backward and racist as this sounds, having a relationship with a non-Chinese Indonesian (heck, I can't even marry a native Indonesian) will be bad for me, my parents, and the guy. I might get disowned/shunned, my parents will cry their eyes out, and the guy will be despised by my extended family and also family friends. I don't know if this is the exact scenario that will play out, but it's highly likely --more likely, at least, than my family accepting him. I'm not exaggerating.

You will regret being a bored housewife than being an old unmarried journalist, I guarantee it. But of course, there is no way to know it because if it does happen, its going to be either of the two. Then again, neither might happen. You might be a happy married journalist, married to someone as intelligent as you are (your kids can still go to expensive schools and you can still rule the house). How does that sound?

That's my dream! I really hope I can juggle both.

There are lots of questions to consider, but once you figure out which things you need to be happy, you'll be able to make a decision without any regrets.

You've asked me some very wise questions. I think I do need to consider what I want exactly, not in terms of what role I want but what I want from it, like you said. In regard to being a housewife, I think I want security, relationship-wise and also financially. I also want to have children, to teach and be taught by, and to leave as my heritage. As for being a journalist, as cheesy as this sounds, I know a lot of dark corners in Indonesia that I want to shed light on. I want to call a spade a spade, to uncover the hypocrites that have so far hidden under the shield of money and power while throwing scraps at their toy dogs, their pet journalists --again, however, doing this sort of work might endanger my family. Indonesian law can't protect me the way U.S. law might protect their journalists, it's still very much swayed by money.

And your parents are right in thinking that some guys will be intimidated by you being smarter, having more education, and/or making more money than them - possibly quite a few of them if Indonesia is anything like India in terms of progressiveness. However, if having this career is important to you, those aren't the guys you want to be married to anyhow.

Good to know you understand, too. I'd hate to be married to someone who treats me like an idiot just because I'm a woman. What about you though? How have/will you juggle your career aspirations and your family's wishes for you?

[Dith Vader]

I know it's easier said than done, and I'm not saying you can "have it all" per say, but you do not have to decide between your career and having a family. It just takes the right person. I'm sure there are happily married journalists out there -- if there weren't, there'd be self-help books just for us!

...

Who knows...you may find an even better guy because of this experience! Tell your parents not to worry, and to keep the faith.

LOL! So even if I do end up an old unmarried journalist, I could be a bestselling old unmarried journalist with a self-help book in my portfolio!

Thank you for the encouragement! I assume you're also doing journalism? (I stalked your profile and website, friend ) Have you decided what school you'll be attending?

[pea-jay]

I'd say 50% of the guys I've met are intimidated, while the rest didn't show it but might also feel the same way.

And... as backward and racist as this sounds, having a relationship with a non-Chinese Indonesian (heck, I can't even marry a native Indonesian) will be bad for me, my parents, and the guy. I might get disowned/shunned, my parents will cry their eyes out, and the guy will be despised by my extended family and also family friends. I don't know if this is the exact scenario that will play out, but it's highly likely --more likely, at least, than my family accepting him. I'm not exaggerating.

That's my dream! I really hope I can juggle both.

You've asked me some very wise questions. I think I do need to consider what I want exactly, not in terms of what role I want but what I want from it, like you said. In regard to being a housewife, I think I want security, relationship-wise and also financially. I also want to have children, to teach and be taught by, and to leave as my heritage. As for being a journalist, as cheesy as this sounds, I know a lot of dark corners in Indonesia that I want to shed light on. I want to call a spade a spade, to uncover the hypocrites that have so far hidden under the shield of money and power while throwing scraps at their toy dogs, their pet journalists --again, however, doing this sort of work might endanger my family. Indonesian law can't protect me the way U.S. law might protect their journalists, it's still very much swayed by money.

Good to know you understand, too. I'd hate to be married to someone who treats me like an idiot just because I'm a woman. What about you though? How have/will you juggle your career aspirations and your family's wishes for you?

Life is too short to live by other's expectations of you. Blindly following other's advice and regretting it down the road can leave you bitter and without a way to fix it. Your parents want *they* think is best for you because more than likely, it may have been what worked for them. To a certain extent you too can see the comparative security in what they are offering. But you also know or feel uncomfortable about this. Looking at your posts, you seem to have an idea of what you want for yourself. Unless you plan on being miserable, take up drinking alcohol or some other self destructive behavior you need to make peace with yourself. And if that means going against your family's wishes, you need to be your own advocate and make those decisions yourself. And where those goals are incompatible (dangerous assignments and raising kids, do one before the other). Change as the circumstances warrant.

And contrary to popular opinion, you won't intimidate all men by having a degree (or two...). Nor should marrying outside your race be considered wrong (although I understand what you are getting at). I dated and married outside my race...may have made things more challenging at times but it's a much richer cultural experience for my family. Thanks to that, my children's extended family now consists of a crazy mix of races, ethnicities and immigration experiences.

Hopefully your parents will find a way to love you as a person, not a possession AND respect the decisions you ultimately will make for yourself. Listen to them respectfully but stand up for yourself on why you will do what you want to do, whether it is school or relationship-related.

Live YOUR life...not someone else's

Good luck!

Edited March 25, 2010 by pea-jay

[Jae B.]

LOL! So even if I do end up an old unmarried journalist, I could be a bestselling old unmarried journalist with a self-help book in my portfolio!

Thank you for the encouragement! I assume you're also doing journalism? (I stalked your profile and website, friend ) Have you decided what school you'll be attending?

Oops. I didn't mean to give you any ideas! But I guess being an bestseller author wouldn't be such a bad trade off. And I don't know about you, but my parents (whom I'm very close to) would absolutely love that, despite any disappointment over a lack of grandchildren from me.

I am doing journalism! I'm interested in hyper-local journalism, ethnically integrated and segregated communities, and wealth-poverty dynamics. Nothing glamorous enough to make guys like me.

Regarding intimidation, how normal is it to encounter journalists where you live? Here, as one of my favorite professors puts it, journalists are kind of like unicorns. Interesting, but weird. Perhaps you can capitalize on the "interesting" part? You're going to have some great stories to tell and all the scoop on your community...they should want to talk to you.

I'm still deciding which school to attend. One of the schools hasn't sent a financial aid letter yet -- that matters a lot! Whether I go to New York or not, I plan to return and have my career in the San Francisco Bay Area, where I was born and raised. So New York would be a bit of a detour for me, too.

[Dith Vader]

Life is too short to live by other's expectations of you. Blindly following other's advice and regretting it down the road can leave you bitter and without a way to fix it. Your parents want *they* think is best for you because more than likely, it may have been what worked for them. To a certain extent you too can see the comparative security in what they are offering. But you also know or feel uncomfortable about this. Looking at your posts, you seem to have an idea of what you want for yourself. Unless you plan on being miserable, take up drinking alcohol or some other self destructive behavior you need to make peace with yourself. And if that means going against your family's wishes, you need to be your own advocate and make those decisions yourself. And where those goals are incompatible (dangerous assignments and raising kids, do one before the other). Change as the circumstances warrant.

And contrary to popular opinion, you won't intimidate all men by having a degree (or two...). Nor should marrying outside your race be considered wrong (although I understand what you are getting at). I dated and married outside my race...may have made things more challenging at times but it's a much richer cultural experience for my family. Thanks to that, my children's extended family now consists of a crazy mix of races, ethnicities and immigration experiences.

Hopefully your parents will find a way to love you as a person, not a possession AND respect the decisions you ultimately will make for yourself. Listen to them respectfully but stand up for yourself on why you will do what you want to do, whether it is school or relationship-related.

Live YOUR life...not someone else's

Good luck!

Thank you. The greatest fear for me at this point in life is making decisions that will affect my entire life trajectory (or so it seems to me), and it's so much easier when I was younger and more reliant on other people choosing for me. But it is time, I should finally take the reins from them --it's just an awfully scary move!

It would surely hurt my parents to hear this, and so I would never say it to them, but it does sometimes feel like I'm a possession... You know, like they care so much about the outside, like looks, grades, etc., but so little about what I feel and what I want. I hope that they'll realize soon enough that I'm a person too, with my own wants, and hopefully it wouldn't hurt them too much once they learn that.

[Dith Vader]

Oops. I didn't mean to give you any ideas! But I guess being an bestseller author wouldn't be such a bad trade off. And I don't know about you, but my parents (whom I'm very close to) would absolutely love that, despite any disappointment over a lack of grandchildren from me.

I am doing journalism! I'm interested in hyper-local journalism, ethnically integrated and segregated communities, and wealth-poverty dynamics. Nothing glamorous enough to make guys like me.

Regarding intimidation, how normal is it to encounter journalists where you live? Here, as one of my favorite professors puts it, journalists are kind of like unicorns. Interesting, but weird. Perhaps you can capitalize on the "interesting" part? You're going to have some great stories to tell and all the scoop on your community...they should want to talk to you.

I'm still deciding which school to attend. One of the schools hasn't sent a financial aid letter yet -- that matters a lot! Whether I go to New York or not, I plan to return and have my career in the San Francisco Bay Area, where I was born and raised. So New York would be a bit of a detour for me, too.

LOL! My parents have been telling me to write a book instead of going to grad school and I have to keep telling them that I don't have a decent book in me yet!

Wealth-poverty dynamics sound very interesting. As for me, I lean more to the cultural side of journalism, but not culture in the sense of arts only. What interests me most is finding connecting threads between events that might at first seem discrete, as in finding the bigger picture to what's happening in the world. Like trying to figure out the spirit of the time, the Zeitgeist --though that word has several conflicting meanings imo. Most of the guys I've met usually stare blankly as I try to explain this.

Journalists are pretty rare. None of my personal friends are journalists though some of them own various media stuff. I do know quite a few, but I know them professionally. They're not newspaper journalists though, they're writers for lifestyle magazines (the stereotype goes that they're pretty and trying to snatch some rich guy by covering social events and interviewing them, but I do know some who aren't like that at all), and as such their job is more glamorous than what we're pursuing. People stare at me weirdly when I tell them I want to be a journalist, it's almost the same as telling them you want to sweep floors for a career... journalists don't get much respect here, you see, mostly because too many of them are pets and not watch dogs. Sadly, we're known to lick boots, not pursue truth.

I'm excited about going to NY, honestly. Even aside from getting a grad degree, it'd be a great experience. I'm still deciding too, and waiting for one more decision. Either way, I hope to see your name printed in some excellent publication in the future

[UnlikelyGrad]

You know, my dad's parents shunned him (and wife, and subsequent children) because he married a non-white. I grew up not knowing my grandparents. They eventually reconciled after I was grown and gone. I've spent some "quality time" with my grandparents since then and I am GLAD that my dad chose to be brave and take a stand. See, even now that my dad's almost 70, my grandmother is trying to force him into her (limiting) mold. Ridiculous!!!

Do what will make YOU happy.

I am living proof that it's possible to go back to grad school after having a family. On the other hand, I picked a husband who was totally willing to support me in this endeavor (we'd decided on this course of action many, many years ago, not long into our marriage).

[Squawker]

Are there any American journalism programs in cities with considerably large Indonesian communities? Can't say I've ever run across an Indonesian neighborhood in any US city, but you never know.

I have a relative who has "shunned" my branch of the family for somewhat similar reasons. I am glad not to know him, as bigotry is apparently the least of is human faults! But then, as he never spoke to me while I was growing up, it is very different from your situation. There are no important emotional ties to be broken.

Perhaps you ask yourself which would be easier: going to grad school for a couple years, then coming home and finding a partner, or staying home to find a partner with the intention of eventually going to graduate school. I would assume that the second option would be harder as it would involve uprooting the partner for a few years, and would delay your career. It's a challenging dilemma, I'm sure, if you don't want to compromise either priority for the other, but it sounds like your instinct has already decided on the matter.

[eucalyptus]

And... as backward and racist as this sounds, having a relationship with a non-Chinese Indonesian (heck, I can't even marry a native Indonesian) will be bad for me, my parents, and the guy. I might get disowned/shunned, my parents will cry their eyes out, and the guy will be despised by my extended family and also family friends. I don't know if this is the exact scenario that will play out, but it's highly likely --more likely, at least, than my family accepting him. I'm not exaggerating.

If that's how your parents will really feel (although you might want to ask them, hypothetically, instead of assuming - you might be surprised at the answer), and if maintaining a good relationship with your parents is important to you, then that's fine! You do have to be aware that you're limiting yourself to a select group of guys: you're looking for a Chinese-Indonesian guy from a good family, who thinks it's cool that you want to have a demanding career, and with whom you get along very well / share beliefs and aspirations / etc. So, that might take a little longer to find, and if you go away to do your Masters, you might not get married until you're 25 or 27 or 30. Is that a risk you're willing to take?

And totally just out of curiosity, would a Chinese non-Indonesian have a chance at getting your parents' approval? Like Chinese from China, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Philippines, USA, etc? Or what about a Chinese-Indonesian guy who doesn't live in Indonesia?

Good to know you understand, too. I'd hate to be married to someone who treats me like an idiot just because I'm a woman. What about you though? How have/will you juggle your career aspirations and your family's wishes for you?

Actually, as it turns out, my parents are incredibly liberal about this (and about most stuff, actually). I think my mom has a very slight preference for my sister and I marrying Indian guys, but it's not a big deal at all, and my Dad doesn't care in the least. My sister is dating an Indian guy and I'm dating a Chinese guy, and my parents are very happy in both cases. My mom's side of the family in India doesn't know about either boyfriend, and they clearly have a preference for Indian guys (specifically, from the same state/religion as us) for their own children. However, my sister and I fall under a different category since we grew up in "America" (Canada); they know that our lives are very different from theirs, and I don't think they'll be surprised in the least when I show up with a non-Indian fiance. My boyfriend is totally supportive of my career aspirations, and in fact he would probably like me less if I wasn't driven and smart and stuff.

[coyabean]

First, let me validate your concerns.

It can be easy for Americans to underestimate the importance of family and their expectations in other cultures. I am American but I'm also a minority and in my culture there are family expectations about gender roles and religion that aren't as easy to dismiss as "c'est la vie!" They are my family and that matters in a fundamental way to how I identify.

So, it matters.

HOWEVER, I think higher education is generally residential for a reason: the distance can be a huge benefit as you trying to develop an identity that is not dependent upon what you know.

So, embrace the anxiety -- it's standard with all change. Also, you cannot be the first person from your culture to experience this conundrum, right? Meet some other folks who have done what you hope to do. Read biographies, join a group or create your own ad hoc support group once you arrive at school. I imagine there will even be men in that group...they'll want to marry somebody one day, perhaps? You will have something pretty major in common!

Good luck to you. You are not alone; find a support group; have faith in yourself; your family will love you regardless and I hear the stock for smart woman is increasing.

ETA: There's a group for EVERYTHING! LOL http://www.iacphila.org/iachome.htm

Edited March 26, 2010 by coyabean

[Jae B.]

I think support groups are a great suggestion.

I would also consider living in an international house, where it might be possible to meet people with similar backgrounds who are outside your field.

I'm considering living in an international house, myself!

[Dith Vader]

Wow... I'm amazed and touched by how many people replied and offered words of encouragement to me. Thanks you guys, it does give me some assurance to have you give me your take on the matter. I also feel more confident about pursuing grad school after reading this thread

And totally just out of curiosity, would a Chinese non-Indonesian have a chance at getting your parents' approval? Like Chinese from China, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Philippines, USA, etc? Or what about a Chinese-Indonesian guy who doesn't live in Indonesia?

Actually, as it turns out, my parents are incredibly liberal about this (and about most stuff, actually). I think my mom has a very slight preference for my sister and I marrying Indian guys, but it's not a big deal at all, and my Dad doesn't care in the least. My sister is dating an Indian guy and I'm dating a Chinese guy, and my parents are very happy in both cases. My mom's side of the family in India doesn't know about either boyfriend, and they clearly have a preference for Indian guys (specifically, from the same state/religion as us) for their own children. However, my sister and I fall under a different category since we grew up in "America" (Canada); they know that our lives are very different from theirs, and I don't think they'll be surprised in the least when I show up with a non-Indian fiance. My boyfriend is totally supportive of my career aspirations, and in fact he would probably like me less if I wasn't driven and smart and stuff.

Your question truly brings home the whole stupidity of dividing people by race... I don't know the answer to that, I haven't quite asked them. But the way I see it, I think they'll be okay with Chinese from Malaysia, Singapore, and first generation Chinese-Indonesians who live elsewhere. Simply because our customs would still be very very similar. But Chinese from China, Hong Kong, Philippines, or anywhere else are too different. Second or third generation Chinese, or any other race, from the U.S. are basically American.

I actually think that most of their discrimination is for the sake of maintaining a good family name, which I must stress is VERY important. But yeah, even if they might be tolerant, other people might not be, and that matters too. But you know, my generation isn't so uptight about that, so my parents might be worrying too much about how other people (read: my social peers) might see me.

Good luck to you. You are not alone; find a support group; have faith in yourself; your family will love you regardless and I hear the stock for smart woman is increasing.

ETA: There's a group for EVERYTHING! LOL http://www.iacphila.org/iachome.htm

Wow, thanks for that!! I was actually thinking of this other group, PERMIAS, which is a group for Indonesians. But IAC sounds good

I would also consider living in an international house, where it might be possible to meet people with similar backgrounds who are outside your field.

I'm considering living in an international house, myself!

It's a toss-up between a dorm (if I get into NYU) or an international house for me too!

[Pamphilia]

Your question truly brings home the whole stupidity of dividing people by race... I don't know the answer to that, I haven't quite asked them. But the way I see it, I think they'll be okay with Chinese from Malaysia, Singapore, and first generation Chinese-Indonesians who live elsewhere. Simply because our customs would still be very very similar. But Chinese from China, Hong Kong, Philippines, or anywhere else are too different. Second or third generation Chinese, or any other race, from the U.S. are basically American.

I was wondering about this too--I know a Chinese Indonesian woman who grew up and was educated through grad school in Canada, and married a Chinese Singaporean (and now lives in Singapore) because she had so much trouble finding a Chinese Indonesian man who wasn't intimidated by her education (this isn't reflective of my views or assumptions about Indonesian guys at all, just a representation of her experience). I echo Coyabean's sentiments that Americans, I think, can sometimes have trouble understanding the way that familial relationships function in other cultures. The culture of individuality in America is such that family simply doesn't translate the same way here and we have a lot of trouble seeing the other side, as it were. It's very easy for us to say, "Just do your thing! Follow your dreams! Shoot for the stars!" because we just don't get it. I feel like I probably "get it" better than most simply because I grew up with a foot (via in-laws and intimate family friends) in family-centered cultures, but these kind of situations are still really hard for me to comprehend most of the time. If you are very set on grad school, I think your best bet is to try to widen your dating/relationship net as much as possible. Push your family's tolerance, gently, and feel around for the edges. And, in my own American way I will say go for it! It can be done! You can hold on to your roots and be a badass iconoclast at the same time. Individual needs and familial obligations don't always have to be mutually exclusive, though negotiating both requires a great deal of delicacy and compromise.

[saharel]

Listen, a good man, wouldn't be scared of you being too smart. A good men would encourage you to pursue studies. You have to find a way to balance both career/family goals. 23 isn't that old to find a husband. Actually, even if you are mature and everything, 21 is young to get married. If you complete your degree, you will have time to grow a bit, to know yourself better and be able to make better choices (like chosing a better husband!!). Moreover, leaving home and living by yourself will be a great experience for you.

Follow your dream and you might even find a man who will support you to reach that dream.

Once a teacher asked me why I was not pursuing studies...I said oh, money, I don't have any, my parents are not there anymore they can't help..... He told me that: stop putting mountains in front of you. Just go and do it.....grab your dream and today on am starting a PhD, money was never a problem, through my college, BSc or MSc degree. So this getting married/becoming a housewife thing is NOT an obstacle for you. You can do it when you get back with your degree.

[rising_star]

Listen, a good man, wouldn't be scared of you being too smart. A good men would encourage you to pursue studies.

This is sooo true. I went on a date last night with a really smart college dropout who was not at all intimidated by the fact that I am in PhD program or where I earned my degrees or what I study. In fact, it was a total nonissue. So definitely don't be scared into thinking that once you have an advanced degree, you will somehow become undesirable/unattractive to members of the gender you're interested in.