full funding v. better school?

[Faythren]

Okay, so two weeks ago the New School for Social Research accepted me into the Soc MA program, with a merit 25% tuition scholarship. It's about 30 grand a year, plus another 16 grand for housing (stupid Manhattan), so I'd be pretty in debt by the end of this, but I've been really excited because it could be worth it.

Today (about ten minutes ago, actually), I got an email from University of Mississippi, one of my safetys, and they appear to have made a better offer. I'm just putting it in quotes because I'm in no state to summarize.

" This offer includes full funding through our departmental assistantship. Your assistantship will amount to $3,600 per academic year. That will entitle you to full non-resident fee scholarship worth $7,938 per academic year and a 75% reduction of your resident tuition worth $3,827 per academic year. We will guarantee funding for two years as long as you make satisfactory progress toward graduation. The total package is worth $30,730 (($3,600+$7,938+$3,827)x2). Putting it another way, you will receive a yearly $3,600 cash stipend and will only pay 25% of the in-state tuition per semester for two years. The tuition you will have to pay is $637 per semester."

I still haven't heard from Texas A&M (yes, I know I applied to weird schools for my subject, shush), so the freaking out and decision making might be a bit premature. Can someone please help me figure out a way to balance money v school, and would either path be worth it? I will be talking to my advisers about this, but one of them went to NSSR, and the other went to Ole Miss, so they're both kind of prejudiced.

[jonjalin]

Okay, so two weeks ago the New School for Social Research accepted me into the Soc MA program, with a merit 25% tuition scholarship. It's about 30 grand a year, plus another 16 grand for housing (stupid Manhattan), so I'd be pretty in debt by the end of this, but I've been really excited because it could be worth it.

Today (about ten minutes ago, actually), I got an email from University of Mississippi, one of my safetys, and they appear to have made a better offer. I'm just putting it in quotes because I'm in no state to summarize.

" This offer includes full funding through our departmental assistantship. Your assistantship will amount to $3,600 per academic year. That will entitle you to full non-resident fee scholarship worth $7,938 per academic year and a 75% reduction of your resident tuition worth $3,827 per academic year. We will guarantee funding for two years as long as you make satisfactory progress toward graduation. The total package is worth $30,730 (($3,600+$7,938+$3,827)x2). Putting it another way, you will receive a yearly $3,600 cash stipend and will only pay 25% of the in-state tuition per semester for two years. The tuition you will have to pay is $637 per semester."

I still haven't heard from Texas A&M (yes, I know I applied to weird schools for my subject, shush), so the freaking out and decision making might be a bit premature. Can someone please help me figure out a way to balance money v school, and would either path be worth it? I will be talking to my advisers about this, but one of them went to NSSR, and the other went to Ole Miss, so they're both kind of prejudiced.

I can't tell you which one to go to and I don't know what your personal financial situation is but I can tell you that NSSR is very expensive. I go there now and totally love the school BUT I don't even live in campus housing---live at home---and it is still ridiculously expensive. If you are going to take out loans to pay the balance, you are going to be saddled with a lot of debt after 2 years---like close to $70,000 or more. This is a heavy burden when you get out if you plan to work in non-quantitative social work jobs. If you decide to go on to doctoral study, you are going to have to acrue even more debt. This is especially true if you plan to stay on for doctoral study at NSSR. They are pretty much known for giving pitiful funding to their PhD students and, sans working your tail off to come up with tuition and living expenses (if you get the opportunity to do so), you are going to have to take out even more loans for at least another 2 or 3 years. That will probably work out to you owing around $120,000 in loans that you will have to pay off by the time you get out---which you will have to pay back on a sociologist's salary(assuming your goal is to be a sociologist). Take a look at government estimates of what sociologists make and run over to the loan payback estimators for federal student loans and run the numbers. Take it from me, you will see a pretty depressing sight coming into view. Again, I don't know what your personal finances are but if the plan is take out loans, consider the decision to go to NSSR carefully. The bottom line: Ole Miss seems to make more sense if you are only considering the finances.

[shakespearebro]

In what universe is "full funding" 75%? Shouldn't "full funding" be 100%?

[johndiligent]

I'd go with the one that isn't financial murder (i.e. NOT THE NEW SCHOOL).

[socnerd]

I would take a good hard look at where the graduates from both places end up. Going to the one where you have funding is great but if you won't be able to get a job after you graduate it's basically pointless. If going to the New School will give you a better shot at landing a good-paying job then you'll be able to pay back the loans instead of having no debt but also no employment.

[Faythren]

In what universe is "full funding" 75%? Shouldn't "full funding" be 100%?

Full funding comes from the $3600 stipend - they'd still be in effect paying me to go there. I may also get an Honors fellowship, which would mean they'd be giving me about 4 grand a year to go there.

[shakespearebro]

Sorry, I'm betraying my status as an "older" grad student. I wouldn't take either offer. The previous posters are right to caution against the New School's tremendous debt load. You have no hope of making that back in less than several decades of work. The opportunity costs alone should warn you away from that option. As for the other option, paying tuition to study sociology is problematic enough, but the $3600 stipend is paltry. Most "fully-funded" offers should cover all your tuition and pay $14-20K either as an assistantship or fellowship, enough to live on if you are frugal. ANything less than this to my mind means do something else or reapply next year. Sorry, I know that must sound harsh and overly practical in terms of studying your dream subject and all, but if they really want you they'll pay you.

Any chance of negotiating a slightly better deal from your partially funded school?

[Minerva473]

Sorry, I'm betraying my status as an "older" grad student. I wouldn't take either offer. The previous posters are right to caution against the New School's tremendous debt load. You have no hope of making that back in less than several decades of work. The opportunity costs alone should warn you away from that option. As for the other option, paying tuition to study sociology is problematic enough, but the $3600 stipend is paltry. Most "fully-funded" offers should cover all your tuition and pay $14-20K either as an assistantship or fellowship, enough to live on if you are frugal. ANything less than this to my mind means do something else or reapply next year. Sorry, I know that must sound harsh and overly practical in terms of studying your dream subject and all, but if they really want you they'll pay you.

Any chance of negotiating a slightly better deal from your partially funded school?

Sounds like the OP is talking about a master's degree, not a Ph.D. To my knowledge you usually don't get paid to do a master's degree.

[dant.gwyrdd]

In what universe is "full funding" 75%? Shouldn't "full funding" be 100%?

It should... I got into the University of Connecticut with full funding, but I found out from current grad students that despite that I'll still have to pay some sort of a university fee in the amount of $937 (yearly, will be able to cover it from my fellowship/TAship as I hear) which apparently isn't included in the tuition waiver.

To the OP: I don't know about their sociology program, but I've spent 2008/09 at Ole Miss as an (undergrad) exchange student and I still have a bunch of friends there, so if you have any questions about the campus, living expenses, Oxford, etc. I'd be more than happy to reply from my own experience/find out for you. Personally, I had a great time there, both socially and academically.

Edited March 30, 2010 by dant.gwyrdd

[Faythren]

Yeah, I should have explained a bit more. I'm going for my masters in Sociology right now. A PhD down the road probably, but I'm trying to take things one step at a time. As for background, I'm twenty, and I'm technically paying for grad school on my own. My parents might help out a bit, but the financial responsibility really falls to me. Right now I'm only worth about 5 grand, so Ole Miss is sorely tempting me, even though one of my advisers called it something along the lines of an intellectual wasteland.

dant.gwyrdd, you liked Ole Miss? I know you said you went there as undergrad, but that makes me feel so much better.

Oh, they also said they nominated me for an Honors Fellowship, which would get me another thousand per semester. So minus the bit of tuition, they'd be paying me about 4 grand a year if I get the fellowship. Which still isn't enough to live on, but it's still more than I make now (part time at Bath and Body Works), and my parents could probably help out. Either way, I'd still be in significantly less debt than New School.

jonjalin, would you say NSSR is worth it though? I would be living on campus, so that would add another like 16 grand each year, which seems kind of ridiculous.

[jonjalin]

Yeah, I should have explained a bit more. I'm going for my masters in Sociology right now. A PhD down the road probably, but I'm trying to take things one step at a time. As for background, I'm twenty, and I'm technically paying for grad school on my own. My parents might help out a bit, but the financial responsibility really falls to me. Right now I'm only worth about 5 grand, so Ole Miss is sorely tempting me, even though one of my advisers called it something along the lines of an intellectual wasteland.

dant.gwyrdd, you liked Ole Miss? I know you said you went there as undergrad, but that makes me feel so much better.

Oh, they also said they nominated me for an Honors Fellowship, which would get me another thousand per semester. So minus the bit of tuition, they'd be paying me about 4 grand a year if I get the fellowship. Which still isn't enough to live on, but it's still more than I make now (part time at Bath and Body Works), and my parents could probably help out. Either way, I'd still be in significantly less debt than New School.

jonjalin, would you say NSSR is worth it though? I would be living on campus, so that would add another like 16 grand each year, which seems kind of ridiculous.

Faythren, no I would say it is not worth it and I'll tell you why. I love the New School but being saddled with that much debt just is going to be a heavy burden on you. When I came to the New School I kinda thought like you---that I love it here so much I'll think about the debt and paying it back later. I got accepted to the masters program at Rutgers but I turned them down for the New School because the New School was the kind of place where I wanted to be. I now realize this was a big mistake. I could have gone to other schools that would have afforded me just as good of an education and chance of getting a job when I get out as The New School. The difference is that I would be owing half of what I owe now. Right now the New School costs, on average, over $15,000 a semester. That is twice as much as state schools. And, you know what? They just sent out notices to all students that next year, they are going up around 5%! I'm graduating this May and I'm dreading having to start paying back that loan. The last time I ran the numbers, the monthly payments were going to be somewhere around over seven hundred dollars a month for at least a decade and a half and probably longer. Are you willing to be that saddled in debt? Also, if you have undergraduate loans it will be even more and for longer. Look, I'll admit NYC is exciting when you're twenty and the New School is a fun and hip (if sometimes chaotic) place to be but, unfortunately for me, I now realize that I could have gone to a state school like CUNY or Rutgers, paid half of what I am paying here, and had just as good a chance to find a job as here or better. Put it another way, the New School is just about as expensive as NYU, Columbia, Harvard, etc. but without the resources while you're there and the heads ups and perks you get in the job market when you put those schools on your resume.

You ask me if it is worth it, I'll say this: when you are twenty and excited about all of the possibilities of life at a fun, hip, new place like the New School and NYC, it may seem worth it. I know it is easy to brush it off now, sign the papers, and head to the New School BUT when you're almost fifty and still paying off your student loans (which, incidentally, if you attended a cheaper state school, you would be finished paying off way before then), trust me, you're going to be cursing the choice of borrowing money to go to the New School. You really do need to run those numbers on the federal loan payback estimators so that you'll know what you are getting into at the New School and again look at how much sociologists make out in the job market. If you don't, you are making an uniformed choice. I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm, just being as realistic as I can. Good luck.

BTW, I was born in Mississippi and grew up there until I was in my early 20s. I didn't go to Ole Miss---went to Mississippi State--- for my undergraduate degree but I will say that regardless of what people will tell you who are from this region, in that region---the South---Ole Miss has a good reputation and, if you are looking for a job down there at least, you have just as good a chance as anyone else with a degree from any other school. Not to make anyone mad or anything but a lot of people from the Northeast look down on the South as an intellectual wasteland because they have regional prejudice and don't know anything about the region or its institutions beyond what they have heard. Talk to your advisor from Ole Miss, your parents or relatives, and do your own personal research to get a clearer picture and make an informed choice. All the best to you whichever you choose.

[jonjalin]

Oh yeah, and that $15,000 is just tuition and fees, not on campus housing.

[Katzenmusik]

I would definitely go with Ole Miss. You don't need such massive debt from your master's degree! You're just getting started in life, and New School debt would be an anchor pulling you down from the very beginning. (Imagine having to turn down an awesome job because it doesn't pay enough to cover your student loans.) Likely you can get a part-time job while at Ole Miss to actually pay rent.

I myself hail from the Deep South and have heard that "intellectual wasteland" jive many times from people who actually have little experience with the region. A place is what YOU make of it!

[socnerd]

Yeah, I should have explained a bit more. I'm going for my masters in Sociology right now. A PhD down the road probably, but I'm trying to take things one step at a time. As for background, I'm twenty, and I'm technically paying for grad school on my own. My parents might help out a bit, but the financial responsibility really falls to me. Right now I'm only worth about 5 grand, so Ole Miss is sorely tempting me, even though one of my advisers called it something along the lines of an intellectual wasteland.

dant.gwyrdd, you liked Ole Miss? I know you said you went there as undergrad, but that makes me feel so much better.

Oh, they also said they nominated me for an Honors Fellowship, which would get me another thousand per semester. So minus the bit of tuition, they'd be paying me about 4 grand a year if I get the fellowship. Which still isn't enough to live on, but it's still more than I make now (part time at Bath and Body Works), and my parents could probably help out. Either way, I'd still be in significantly less debt than New School.

jonjalin, would you say NSSR is worth it though? I would be living on campus, so that would add another like 16 grand each year, which seems kind of ridiculous.

I know everyone always says "Go with the money" but if Ole Miss is as bad as your advisers are saying it is, wouldn't it just be a huge waste of time? If it is an 'intellectual wasteland' and has such a bad reputation then getting into a decent PhD program from there (or getting a job) is going to be very difficult and you may just waste 2 years and screw yourself over for the future. Seriously look into where their grads are because it might not be worth it. My advisor told me that if I chose to go to a place that had a bad reputation then I would have to be explaining it for the rest of my life and it would just make me look terrible.

[Faythren]

I spoke to my adviser today, and suddenly he was a lot more positive about the school. The flip-flopping is driving me nuts, and I still want to talk to a few more professors about it, but with what I'm reading about it, and with what people are saying here (thanks jonjalin and Katzenmusik!) I'm actually getting kind of excited about the program. The chair of the soc dept has been emailing me, and things are looking pretty great right now.

And honestly, I have no undergrad debt, and I'd really really like to come out of this with no or minimal debt, especially if the alternative is being in just so deep. And it's really kind of nice for a school to finally acknowledge everything I've done (I just turned twenty, so I'm graduating two years early).

[dant.gwyrdd]

Yeah, I loved it at Ole Miss. I agree with what jonjalin and Katzenmusik say about the South in general and Ole Miss in particular: it's very well known in the region and it is by all means not an "intellectual wasteland". Like I said, I had a great time there, most of the professors I had classes with were amazing and above all, they were all VERY enthusiastic about the stuff they taught. (Again, bear in mind I didn't do sociology there, but mostly linguistics and English lit with some CSD stuff). The only reason I didn't apply to go there for post-grad is that they don't do theoretical linguistics at that level there, which is where my interests lie. I would certainly recommend it overall, especially since it will be much cheaper than your other option, after all, if you want to continue onwards in your academic career, you can always apply elsewhere for a PhD and I'm sure your excellent academic record from Ole Miss won't hurt you.

P.S. The other two people who were on the same exchange program liked it a lot as well, in fact, one of them came back to Ole Miss last fall to do her masters in education there.

Edited March 31, 2010 by dant.gwyrdd

[Seth]

I'm in a similar situation... accepted to NSSR (Poli Sci MA), only 25% tuition waver, and thinking about the cost makes me want to vomit. I was told that their PhD funding is much better, although don't know how true that is. I've also been told that competition is fierce for the few PhD spots, so even if what I was told *is* true, it's far from a sure thing.

This reply isn't very helpful; I just wanted to express that I share your pain. My attitude going into the application process was that I only wanted to go to schools that were right for me, and consequently had no safety schools. If U. Miss doesn't entice you academically, screw it. I'm leaning toward eating the debt for the first year and working my ass off to qualify for better funding/scholarships the next.

Best of luck with your decision. If you accept NSSR's offer, maybe we can both save money by going in on a bulk case of ramen!

[Nancy F]

I can't speak to either school's programs, but I can speak to the debt load and NYC. I went to undergrad at NYU with a scholarship but still came out of it with about $70K in debt after 3 years. New York is a phenomenal place to live, but if that's where you want to be, try getting a summer internship or really focus on getting a job AFTER grad school. The difference in funding you're mentioning is so extreme - with your loans from New School, your options for jobs after school will be limited to those that can pay for your debt load! I've spent 8 years working to pay down my loans, and it's restricted my ability to live where I want to and take lower paying jobs that actually apply to my passion. Be sure that you're prepared for that before you accept so much debt.

[Faythren]

Yeah.. after listening to people here, and talking with other real-life people as well, I'm starting to get really excited about University of Mississippi. The chair of the department has been emailing me personally, and so has the coordinator, and they also assured me I'd get the Honors Fellowship if I went there. I'm much more of a small town person than I am a big city type, and my greatest fear about NSSR was that I'd basically get stuck in NYC, and that is something I definitely do NOT want.

Thanks for being so helpful, everyone, and thanks for the offer Seth, but it looks like you'll have to find someone else to go in on ramen with you

[pea-jay]

I'm going through the same thought processes as I weigh an offers from both NYU and CUNY, although in different programs. As many folks are I gravitated to NYU as I heard many things about it. After I saw the price tag, I searched for public alternatives. Glad I did. This is a good thread. Going to nudge the decision meter back to Baruch.

[strokeofmidnight]

Sorry, I'm betraying my status as an "older" grad student. I wouldn't take either offer. The previous posters are right to caution against the New School's tremendous debt load. You have no hope of making that back in less than several decades of work. The opportunity costs alone should warn you away from that option. As for the other option, paying tuition to study sociology is problematic enough, but the $3600 stipend is paltry. Most "fully-funded" offers should cover all your tuition and pay $14-20K either as an assistantship or fellowship, enough to live on if you are frugal. ANything less than this to my mind means do something else or reapply next year. Sorry, I know that must sound harsh and overly practical in terms of studying your dream subject and all, but if they really want you they'll pay you.

Any chance of negotiating a slightly better deal from your partially funded school?

I'd second this, though my perspective is probably colored from my status as a PhD applicant (aka, stipend = at least $15K, or something that doesn't require loans). My undergrad professors had emphasized "go big, or go home"--which doesn't necessarily mean only high-ranking/prestigious schools, but it does mean only accepting (or for that matter, applying to) programs that would train me well and prepare me to be competitive on the job market. Of Ole Miss is as bad as your professors suggest that it is, how useful will that degree for you? How good will that training be? Will be you competitive if you decide to apply for PhD programs? It looks as though you'll have a debtload either way ($3600 won't get me through a summer, though I do live in a very expensive part of the country). Is that debt worth the training/opportunities you'll gain from either program?

[90sNickelodeon]

I took the money. I got into Columbia, NYU, and Michigan--all top programs, but I chose a strong program at a state school (UCONN) for full funding. I don't regret my decision for a minute.

*Dances like Napoleon*

[IOPsychology]

Yeah.. after listening to people here, and talking with other real-life people as well, I'm starting to get really excited about University of Mississippi. The chair of the department has been emailing me personally, and so has the coordinator, and they also assured me I'd get the Honors Fellowship if I went there. I'm much more of a small town person than I am a big city type, and my greatest fear about NSSR was that I'd basically get stuck in NYC, and that is something I definitely do NOT want.

Thanks for being so helpful, everyone, and thanks for the offer Seth, but it looks like you'll have to find someone else to go in on ramen with you

Hi Faythren,

Okay so I'm just reading this post from the beginning now and it sounds like you've pretty much already made up your mind, but I just wanted to throw my support (for what it's worth) to Ole Miss. To give you some background: I was born and raised in DC (actually in the city, not in the suburbs), went to undergrad at Univ of Virginia, then lived in Boston for three years doing research. Last summer, I moved down to North Carolina and am working in research at UNC. I have to agree with what some of the others have said - people who haven't lived in/experienced the south don't really get it. They really do tend to see the entire south as an intellectual wasteland. As much as I love Boston, there are a lot of people up there who don't realize that there is an entire world outside of Massachusetts. Unfortunately, the same phenomenon exists in New York, too. (And plenty of other places too, I'm sure.)

I think you should (if you haven't already) talk to your advisor who went to Ole Miss - I'm guessing he/she must have had a good experience there if you ended up applying to that program. Yes, both advisors are "biased" as you mentioned, but take advantage of their knowledge! Ask each of them (independently) the same questions and see how they both respond. It will help you figure out what the most important factors are for you. I also agree with the other suggestion to find out where grads from each program ended up - what their job placement rates have been (in sociology, not just job placement in general), etc. That can provide hugely valuable information.

As much as I want to say, follow your dreams and worry about the money later, it's usually more complicated than that. Like Nancy F was saying, if you're saddled with huge student loans, it will have a big impact on what you are able to do after grad school - like what kinds of jobs you can take and where you can live. My husband and I are currently paying down his student loans from undergrad, and he feels like he can't leave his high-paying job (that he hates) and find his dream job until we've paid off more of the debt.

Also, do pay attention to how the schools have treated you - it's important. The faculty at Ole Miss seem to really want to have you there - and are taking time and effort to prove that (both with funding offer and personalized communications, etc.). And one other thing-- for the people (future potential employers?) out there who would look down on a degree from Ole Miss versus a degree from NSSR, are those really the kind of people you want to be working with anyway?

Whatever you end up deciding - good luck!

[cybe2001]

The solution is simple: do the Master's at the New School. Excel. Have fun/ be young. Then apply to a European PhD program - i.e. in France, England or in the Netherlands. That way you get paid for getting your PhD, and can pay off the debt while working. I know for a fact that in Paris and in Amsterdam, the New School is very highly regarded, so you'd have a good chance to get in. Did I mention you'd get paid in euros?

[dant.gwyrdd]

The solution is simple: do the Master's at the New School. Excel. Have fun/ be young. Then apply to a European PhD program - i.e. in France, England or in the Netherlands. That way you get paid for getting your PhD, and can pay off the debt while working. I know for a fact that in Paris and in Amsterdam, the New School is very highly regarded, so you'd have a good chance to get in. Did I mention you'd get paid in euros?

That sounds nice in theory, but might be a bit more complicated in practice. Firstly, it's harder to secure funding in the EU for non-EU citizens so you'd most likely have to secure funding from various grants (Fulbright might be the best shot for Americans) prior to/while actually applying to PhD studies. Secondly, as a foreign citizen you'd be limited to working up to 20 hours per week (e.g., 19.5 in France to be precise) on your student visa and you'd probably need that money to help pay your living expenses which could be considerably higher in the parts of Europe mentioned (I'm sure living in NY would get you used to that tho). And yes, you'd get paid in euros (or pounds in Britain), but all of your expenses would also be in euros/pounds, plus you'd have a substantial loan to pay off. Students are in the low income bracket everywhere in the world; so accumulating debt in the States with the idea of getting the money to pay it of while doing a PhD in Europe is a plan that needs some more thorough thinking.

If we're talking about also getting a job in Europe after the PhD, bear also in mind that such a thing would be, again, harder for a foreigner especially as you'd have to secure a job before being able to get a work visa. Plus, taxes in Europe can be much higher than what you're used to in America so you have to factor that in when evaluating job offers, etc. It's the taxes that make the cost of living higher as well--VAT is usually between 15 and 25% for most goods throughout Europe (some goods have lower 6-10% rates but there's not many of those).

Now, I'm not trying to scare anyone off of studying in Europe, I'm just saying it's something that needs to be thoroughly thought through beforehand and that it's an adventure (albeit an amazing one) you'd be better off to embark into without a huge debt. But if you can do it, then by all means do--it can be a great experience to find yourself smack in the middle of a foreign country with no friends and then (re)construct your (social) life from zero. I enjoyed it so much, I'm doing it again (Though, to be perfectly honest, one of my main reasons for applying for a PhD in the States was precisely that it's easier to get funding there.)