Metaphysics: UW-Madison or UC Davis?

[KarlX]

Hi guys! 

My interest in metaphysics of time and material objects drives me to some PhD programs which have strengths in metaphysics. The Philosophical Gourmet Report has placed UC Davis into its rankings of metaphysics, but UW Madison doesn't appear in the same list of rankings. This fact seems to show that UC Davis is better at metaphysics than UW-Madison.

However, a few days ago I was surprised to find that in UWM's department of philosophy, there are several faculty members who also do interesting work on metaphysics of material objects and time travel. So now I'm confused about the two programs' strengths in metaphysics...

Can anyone tell me which of two programs is better?  Besides, which  is harder to get into (I mean, the lower chance of admission)?

[hector549]

5 hours ago, KarlX said:

Hi guys! 

My interest in metaphysics of time and material objects drives me to some PhD programs which have strengths in metaphysics. The Philosophical Gourmet Report has placed UC Davis into its rankings of metaphysics, but UW Madison doesn't appear in the same list of rankings. This fact seems to show that UC Davis is better at metaphysics than UW-Madison.

However, a few days ago I was surprised to find that in UWM's department of philosophy, there are several faculty members who also do interesting work on metaphysics of material objects and time travel. So now I'm confused about the two programs' strengths in metaphysics...

Can anyone tell me which of two programs is better?  Besides, which  is harder to get into (I mean, the lower chance of admission)?

Keep in mind the PGR is a reputational survey, and the subfield rankings roughly reflect things like how many people are working in a particular subfield at a given department, and things like faculty research output.

I'm not in metaphysics, but Cody Gilmore is, to my knowledge, a well-known metaphysician. The only dedicated metaphysician at Madison is Alan Sidelle from the looks of things. I'm sure he's a fine scholar as well, but if you look at both their publication histories, Gilmore's is more extensive/has more prestigious pubs/etc. This is probably the reason why Davis is ranked for metaphysics and Madison isn't.

Madison is ranked higher overall because they have a ton of ethics people and history people that Davis doesn't have. Both have good people working on various areas of phil of sci, but Madison is ranked higher in the subfield rankings for general phil of sci as well, which contributes to its higher ranking overall.

As for which one is harder to get into, it's hard to say definitively. Highly ranked programs are extremely competitive, and higher-ranked programs are generally more competitive, but this doesn't necessarily mean that just because Program X is ranked higher than P.Y, that X will necessarily be harder for you to get into. So much comes down to individual fit, if you wow the people on the ad com with your writing sample, how many applicants to a program want to work in your area, and how many good apps a given program is getting overall, which isn't always perfectly tracked by ranking (location, etc. can affect how many apps a program gets). I got plenty of rejections from programs that were lower-ranked than the one I'm attending. This is not uncommon.

It's also hard to say which one is "better" for you. Overall rankings and subfield rankings are useful, and a good place to start, but it's a good idea to see what individual faculty work on and if they'd be a good fit. If you're really into metaphysics and feel like faculty at both institutions would fit your particular interests in metaphysics, then you can always apply to both and see what happens.

Edited November 29, 2019 by hector549

[maxhgns]

Also remember that, other faults aside, the PGR is pretty much always out of date. Some of Madison's metaphysicists are still at the assistant level, and that may not be very well reflected in the subfield rankings (which mostly reflect associate-level and up, once people have established themselves). Finally, most of Madison's metaphysiscists do something else as a primary AOS, whereas Davis has a few more dedicated faculty. And where time stuff is concerned, Davis has philosophers of science who are working in complementary areas, whereas IIRC that's not really true of Madison.

So: Davis is probably better for that particular interest. But what are your other interests, and how well-supported would they be?

Also note, however: Sidelle is a very well-respected metaphysicist.

[KarlX]

6 hours ago, hector549 said:

Keep in mind the PGR is a reputational survey, and the subfield rankings roughly reflect things like how many people are working in a particular subfield at a given department, and things like faculty research output.

I'm not in metaphysics, but Cody Gilmore is, to my knowledge, a well-known metaphysician. The only dedicated metaphysician at Madison is Alan Sidelle from the looks of things. I'm sure he's a fine scholar as well, but if you look at both their publication histories, Gilmore's is more extensive/has more prestigious pubs/etc. This is probably the reason why Davis is ranked for metaphysics and Madison isn't.

Madison is ranked higher overall because they have a ton of ethics people and history people that Davis doesn't have. Both have good people working on various areas of phil of sci, but Madison is ranked higher in the subfield rankings for general phil of sci as well, which contributes to its higher ranking overall.

As for which one is harder to get into, it's hard to say definitively. Highly ranked programs are extremely competitive, and higher-ranked programs are generally more competitive, but this doesn't necessarily mean that just because Program X is ranked higher than P.Y, that X will necessarily be harder for you to get into. So much comes down to individual fit, if you wow the people on the ad com with your writing sample, how many applicants to a program want to work in your area, and how many good apps a given program is getting overall, which isn't always perfectly tracked by ranking (location, etc. can affect how many apps a program gets). I got plenty of rejections from programs that were lower-ranked than the one I'm attending. This is not uncommon.

It's also hard to say which one is "better" for you. Overall rankings and subfield rankings are useful, and a good place to start, but it's a good idea to see what individual faculty work on and if they'd be a good fit. If you're really into metaphysics and feel like faculty at both institutions would fit your particular interests in metaphysics, then you can always apply to both and see what happens.

Hi Hector 549, thank you for your clear and helpful comments here! I've chosen some target programs which are good at metaphysics, but I need to consider more potential programs. Maybe it's a good idea to apply to both UWM and UCD!?

Also, I'm an international applicant graduated from a university which is not well-known to most of North American programs of philosophy. I heard that public universities, due to their burget limits, are more willing to admit domestic students (rather than international ones) than private universities. Is it true? Does this means that an international applicant is harder to get into philosophy programs held by public universities (e.g. UC Berkeley, UW Madison, and UC Davis)?

Edited November 30, 2019 by KarlX

[KarlX]

PhD application is grunt work to some degree. After all, It's a bit tiring to browse through so many programs' website and their faculty's publications.  

Edited November 30, 2019 by KarlX
error

[KarlX]

6 hours ago, maxhgns said:

Also remember that, other faults aside, the PGR is pretty much always out of date. Some of Madison's metaphysicists are still at the assistant level, and that may not be very well reflected in the subfield rankings (which mostly reflect associate-level and up, once people have established themselves). Finally, most of Madison's metaphysiscists do something else as a primary AOS, whereas Davis has a few more dedicated faculty. And where time stuff is concerned, Davis has philosophers of science who are working in complementary areas, whereas IIRC that's not really true of Madison.

So: Davis is probably better for that particular interest. But what are your other interests, and how well-supported would they be?

Also note, however: Sidelle is a very well-respected metaphysicist.

Thank you, Maxhgns! Aside from metaphysics, I'm also interested in phil of sci (e.g.scientific realism vs. anti-realism, dispositions, and natural kinds) and ethics (e.g. Kant, metaethics, animal rights).  Your comment reminds me that the individual fit to a program is crucial, but another question grows out of my mind at this time:

As you said, many of UWM's metaphysicians take something else as their primary AOS. So if I apply to UWM only for the purpose of doing metaphysics (and other relevant subfields), would UWM think that my application doesn't fit in with their research strengths?   

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by KarlX

[Duns Eith]

13 hours ago, KarlX said:

PhD application is grunt work to some degree. 

Indeed it is! Lol (to some extent, and toward some certification in higher ed)

[Marcus_Aurelius]

On 11/29/2019 at 9:39 PM, KarlX said:

Thank you, Maxhgns! Aside from metaphysics, I'm also interested in phil of sci (e.g.scientific realism vs. anti-realism, dispositions, and natural kinds) and ethics (e.g. Kant, metaethics, animal rights).  Your comment reminds me that the individual fit to a program is crucial, but another question grows out of my mind at this time:

As you said, many of UWM's metaphysicians take something else as their primary AOS. So if I apply to UWM only for the purpose of doing metaphysics (and other relevant subfields), would UWM think that my application doesn't fit in with their research strengths?   

 

I don't know much about the specifics of this discussion, but I'd recommend against telling any program that you're only interested in one subfield. (North American) departments are looking for folks who will grow in their program, so you don't want to give the impression that you have everything figured out.

Also, definitely agreed that looking through websites and faculty publications can be tedious. On the other hand, think of it as helping you get more familiar with major players in your field(s) of interest. That being said, comparing specific programs doesn't matter so much until you're accepted, and pre-application research has diminishing returns when time can be spent improving the writing sample and, to a lesser extent, statements of purpose.

[KarlX]

18 hours ago, Marcus_Aurelius said:

I don't know much about the specifics of this discussion, but I'd recommend against telling any program that you're only interested in one subfield. (North American) departments are looking for folks who will grow in their program, so you don't want to give the impression that you have everything figured out.

Also, definitely agreed that looking through websites and faculty publications can be tedious. On the other hand, think of it as helping you get more familiar with major players in your field(s) of interest. That being said, comparing specific programs doesn't matter so much until you're accepted, and pre-application research has diminishing returns when time can be spent improving the writing sample and, to a lesser extent, statements of purpose.

Good suggestions! Thanks!