Should I quit grad school?

[doctormelody]

So, long story short, I’m almost halfway finished with my first year in an MSW program and I’m having serious doubts about whether this field is for me. Ever since I started thinking about pursuing this path I wanted to become a therapist, but I’m not even sure I believe in therapy anymore. I know there are many other possible career paths in the field, but tbh, I’m not sure I want to be involved with mental health at all anymore. It’s not my passion; it never has been. I pursued this because I thought it was practical (hilarious, I know, but my other idea for my life was to become an academic) and because I thought I might be good at it. I know it’s too soon to tell whether I’m capable, but I don’t know if I’m interested enough to find out. It feels like a bad sign that I already feel this much trepidation when it seems like everyone I know in the field is burned out, underpaid, and sad. 
 

I don’t really have another ideas for what I would do besides some half-baked dreams of becoming a journalist. I know I wouldn’t make any money in that field either if I was lucky enough to “make it” in some small way, and I’m not sure whether I possess the work ethic, talent, or intelligence to succeed in that industry. I have around 80k in student loan debt currently and it will be at the very minimum 100k by the time I am done with this program. I know it must seem like I’m obsessed with money, but I’ve never made more than 12,000 in a year and I am so tired of being poor. I would like to make at least 50k a year SOMEDAY and ideally more so that I can pay off my student loans and possibly even help my dad with the PLUS loans he took out for my undergrad in the sweet, misguided hope that I would amount to something in life. I would also like to not be a fucking albatross around my boyfriend’s neck for the rest of my life.

I have tried to explore these feelings in therapy and it does not help. All my therapist does is say “wow, you’re really hard on yourself.” Last week she recommended a mental health IOP where some of my peers work. This is part of why I’m losing confidence in therapy, but it’s not just her; I haven’t made any significant progress in that arena in years. It seems all my therapists do is listen to me vent and collect a check. I have had a couple wonderful ones; but they have been few and far between, and I am starting to believe I am simply too broken to be helped. Which, of course, makes the idea of idea of me thing to help anyone else laughable at best and unethical at worst.

I apologize if this doesn’t fit here, but I am desperate and grad cafe has helped me in the past. I know I am depressed and possibly not seeing things clearly, but it also seems evident that I have made quite the mess of my life. If anyone has any insight or has been through something similar and come out the other side ok and is willing to share that with me, I would be eternally grateful.

 

 

[anelab]

First, I would say get a new therapist if you are able. Don't stop looking until you find a good fit.

Second, the debt is going to be there whether you stop going or not. If you finish, the three letters after your name will help you get a job (it's elitist and capitalist but what can you do?). Is there a Dean of Academic Affairs you could talk to? Or a trusted professor? When I was having doubts about my MSW, I talked to the only professor I had liked at that point and she completely changed everything for me. 

No one can make the decision but you, and no one here will have to live with the consequences of this choice either way. I'd encourage you to look into the diversity of the field before you decide though. Have you thought about macro? Policy? Research? Evaluation? Private sector? Medical social work (both case work and not)? Public health social work? School social work? There are so many options for people who don't want to be therapists, I have no idea why therapy is presented as the main option.

Good luck! (Oh and if anyone is making you feel shitty for having debt and being unsure of your life path, dump them from your life. This is normal and not something to be shamed about)

[AlabasterSeas]

On 2/21/2020 at 1:29 AM, doctormelody said:

So, long story short, I’m almost halfway finished with my first year in an MSW program and I’m having serious doubts about whether this field is for me. Ever since I started thinking about pursuing this path I wanted to become a therapist, but I’m not even sure I believe in therapy anymore. I know there are many other possible career paths in the field, but tbh, I’m not sure I want to be involved with mental health at all anymore. It’s not my passion; it never has been. I pursued this because I thought it was practical (hilarious, I know, but my other idea for my life was to become an academic) and because I thought I might be good at it. I know it’s too soon to tell whether I’m capable, but I don’t know if I’m interested enough to find out. It feels like a bad sign that I already feel this much trepidation when it seems like everyone I know in the field is burned out, underpaid, and sad. 
 

I don’t really have another ideas for what I would do besides some half-baked dreams of becoming a journalist. I know I wouldn’t make any money in that field either if I was lucky enough to “make it” in some small way, and I’m not sure whether I possess the work ethic, talent, or intelligence to succeed in that industry. I have around 80k in student loan debt currently and it will be at the very minimum 100k by the time I am done with this program. I know it must seem like I’m obsessed with money, but I’ve never made more than 12,000 in a year and I am so tired of being poor. I would like to make at least 50k a year SOMEDAY and ideally more so that I can pay off my student loans and possibly even help my dad with the PLUS loans he took out for my undergrad in the sweet, misguided hope that I would amount to something in life. I would also like to not be a fucking albatross around my boyfriend’s neck for the rest of my life.

I have tried to explore these feelings in therapy and it does not help. All my therapist does is say “wow, you’re really hard on yourself.” Last week she recommended a mental health IOP where some of my peers work. This is part of why I’m losing confidence in therapy, but it’s not just her; I haven’t made any significant progress in that arena in years. It seems all my therapists do is listen to me vent and collect a check. I have had a couple wonderful ones; but they have been few and far between, and I am starting to believe I am simply too broken to be helped. Which, of course, makes the idea of idea of me thing to help anyone else laughable at best and unethical at worst.

I apologize if this doesn’t fit here, but I am desperate and grad cafe has helped me in the past. I know I am depressed and possibly not seeing things clearly, but it also seems evident that I have made quite the mess of my life. If anyone has any insight or has been through something similar and come out the other side ok and is willing to share that with me, I would be eternally grateful.

 

 

I won't start my MSW until Fall 2020 (still trying to decide which to attend), but am also concerned about student loan debt. For reference, I'm a few years out of undergrad and have had a variety of work experiences and have also had the pleasure of living paycheck-to-paycheck while working in positions related to social work. I have a helpful therapist and have discussed all my worries about money with her, as well as the nagging question, "is this the right choice/path for me?"

Here's what I'd say for you: keep in mind you might be depressed/anxious which could be weighing you down. If you are depressed/anxious, I doubt any career change will make you feel better -- in other words, the issue might not be that you've selected the wrong career path (even though it feels like that right now), but that you're dealing with a tough mental health condition.

In terms of debt, yes, it's a lot of money. I am also facing six-figure debt to do an MSW. But, keep in mind a lot of people have debt nowadays. And some kinds of debt are okay to have. If you're racking up a ton of credit card debt on stuff you don't really need, then that's one thing. It's another thing for an education. Going into debt for an education or for a house/car tend to be more common kinds of debt that people expect to pay. While a career in social work might not pay as much as other careers, a MSW does lead to a paying job. I'm not sure what kind of social work you're interested in, but an MSW graduate (before becoming a LCSW) can expect to make around $50k/year in NYC if they're working in a clinical role. There's usually a $10-15k bump once they become a LCSW. I'm not sure about other cities or non-clinical social work; at least other cities would have lower cost-of-living.

Additionally, the payback period for student loan debt is long. That can feel like a burden, but that can also be a positive -- you can have really low monthly payments. Remember that lots of people with student loan debt are still able to live happy, contented lives, and even take a vacation now and then! You'll just need to come up with a budget that works for your situation. Investing in yourself is a good thing, it's the kind of thing that is worth the debt.

It sounds like you have a lot of self-doubt -- that feeling that you've messed up your life and that you're on the wrong path; a sense that you're just this messy human being who can't get their shit together. Additionally, your debt-anxiety might be making your brain play a trick on yourself: it sounds like you're trying to zoom into the future and figure out whether or not the MSW was the right choice, and your anxiety is predicting/saying, "The MSW was the wrong choice." For starters, anxiety is a really bad fortune teller. It doesn't know what your future will be like. There's still the possibility you graduate and think social work was the best decision of your life, debt and all. That's just as much a possibility as anything else. The hard part is that you won't know until you're there. That might seem scary; you might want a guarantee up-front that social work will be fantastic and everything will work out. But, such guarantees don't exist, and keep in mind there's no guarantee any other career will be fantastic or better than social work. 

Because dropping out / changing paths seems to be coming more from a place of anxiety/doubt/criticism, it seems reactionary; it doesn't sound like a decision that is coming from a place of balanced-perspective.

I'd encourage you to not interpret your past, present, or future decisions as right or wrong. That's black-and-white thinking. Life's more complex and more interesting than right or wrong. You didn't make the wrong choice going into debt for undergrad, you didn't make the wrong choice with the MSW path; if you had made different choices, they wouldn't have been the right choices, just different choices. The best we can hope for is not to make the right choice but to try to make compassionate choices, for ourselves and for others. Holding yourself to the standard of right or wrong could lead to a harmful relationship with yourself. It's not about figuring out how to fix your life or yourself by doing x, y, or z. It's about how you can love and appreciate yourself as you are at this moment, even in the presence of pain.

Finally, don't think you have to be perfect to be a social worker. A lot of people who are attracted to social work do it because they are very familiar with all the messiness of life, including their own messiness. If anything, your experience of self-doubt, depression, anxiety, hardship, etc. can be the very stuff that makes you a wonderful and effective social worker.

If any of this is helpful, it is largely because of the therapy I received. It took me a few tries to find the right therapist for me, but once I did, it has been life-changing.

 

 

[doctormelody]

On 2/26/2020 at 3:27 PM, AlabasterSeas said:

I won't start my MSW until Fall 2020 (still trying to decide which to attend), but am also concerned about student loan debt. For reference, I'm a few years out of undergrad and have had a variety of work experiences and have also had the pleasure of living paycheck-to-paycheck while working in positions related to social work. I have a helpful therapist and have discussed all my worries about money with her, as well as the nagging question, "is this the right choice/path for me?"

Here's what I'd say for you: keep in mind you might be depressed/anxious which could be weighing you down. If you are depressed/anxious, I doubt any career change will make you feel better -- in other words, the issue might not be that you've selected the wrong career path (even though it feels like that right now), but that you're dealing with a tough mental health condition.

In terms of debt, yes, it's a lot of money. I am also facing six-figure debt to do an MSW. But, keep in mind a lot of people have debt nowadays. And some kinds of debt are okay to have. If you're racking up a ton of credit card debt on stuff you don't really need, then that's one thing. It's another thing for an education. Going into debt for an education or for a house/car tend to be more common kinds of debt that people expect to pay. While a career in social work might not pay as much as other careers, a MSW does lead to a paying job. I'm not sure what kind of social work you're interested in, but an MSW graduate (before becoming a LCSW) can expect to make around $50k/year in NYC if they're working in a clinical role. There's usually a $10-15k bump once they become a LCSW. I'm not sure about other cities or non-clinical social work; at least other cities would have lower cost-of-living.

Additionally, the payback period for student loan debt is long. That can feel like a burden, but that can also be a positive -- you can have really low monthly payments. Remember that lots of people with student loan debt are still able to live happy, contented lives, and even take a vacation now and then! You'll just need to come up with a budget that works for your situation. Investing in yourself is a good thing, it's the kind of thing that is worth the debt.

It sounds like you have a lot of self-doubt -- that feeling that you've messed up your life and that you're on the wrong path; a sense that you're just this messy human being who can't get their shit together. Additionally, your debt-anxiety might be making your brain play a trick on yourself: it sounds like you're trying to zoom into the future and figure out whether or not the MSW was the right choice, and your anxiety is predicting/saying, "The MSW was the wrong choice." For starters, anxiety is a really bad fortune teller. It doesn't know what your future will be like. There's still the possibility you graduate and think social work was the best decision of your life, debt and all. That's just as much a possibility as anything else. The hard part is that you won't know until you're there. That might seem scary; you might want a guarantee up-front that social work will be fantastic and everything will work out. But, such guarantees don't exist, and keep in mind there's no guarantee any other career will be fantastic or better than social work. 

Because dropping out / changing paths seems to be coming more from a place of anxiety/doubt/criticism, it seems reactionary; it doesn't sound like a decision that is coming from a place of balanced-perspective.

I'd encourage you to not interpret your past, present, or future decisions as right or wrong. That's black-and-white thinking. Life's more complex and more interesting than right or wrong. You didn't make the wrong choice going into debt for undergrad, you didn't make the wrong choice with the MSW path; if you had made different choices, they wouldn't have been the right choices, just different choices. The best we can hope for is not to make the right choice but to try to make compassionate choices, for ourselves and for others. Holding yourself to the standard of right or wrong could lead to a harmful relationship with yourself. It's not about figuring out how to fix your life or yourself by doing x, y, or z. It's about how you can love and appreciate yourself as you are at this moment, even in the presence of pain.

Finally, don't think you have to be perfect to be a social worker. A lot of people who are attracted to social work do it because they are very familiar with all the messiness of life, including their own messiness. If anything, your experience of self-doubt, depression, anxiety, hardship, etc. can be the very stuff that makes you a wonderful and effective social worker.

If any of this is helpful, it is largely because of the therapy I received. It took me a few tries to find the right therapist for me, but once I did, it has been life-changing.

 

 

Firstly, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to leave such a thoughtful, nuanced, and quite frankly beautiful reply. I am so sorry it took me so long to get back to you, but I want you to know that not only did I find this very comforting to read, I think you make a lot of sense. I know that I have a tendency to view things in black-and-white, and yet, no matter how many times I think I have eradicated that particular unfortunate habit, it keeps popping up in new and different ways. So thank you so much for that insight; it is very well-taken. 

I like your point about anxiety being a bad fortune-teller. You're absolutely right that I do want some assurance that everything will be okay if I continue with social work - that I'll be happy and fulfilled and make decent money or at least be able to get by. And it is very hard to separate whether I have a genuine dislike for the work or whether it is my self-doubt and anxiety that is making me feel like I'll always feel miserable and incapable and that I've made a terrible mistake. I will say that my internship right now is very hard on me mentally (my field placement is in a community mental health agency) and that it may not be representative of the field as a whole. That being said, I feel different from my peers in that I don't have a passion for mental health; the DSM is boring to me and I'm more concerned with what material improvements can be made to people's lives rather than the specifics of their particular disorder. It's possible I might enjoy a macro-focus more, but I'm worried that this would lead to more uncertain employment prospects, and it's probably too late to change my concentration.

My boyfriend said something the other day about how social work is kind of like bailing out a boat using a thimble and it struck me as very poignant. Maybe this is just my depressed brain talking and I certainly don't intend to be discouraging, but if my experience thus far in the field has taught me anything it's that the people I am trying to help would benefit far, far more from big structural changes in the way our society functions than from any support I might able to provide. I've always been a big picture, can't see the trees for the forest type of person, and I think I'm struggling to conceptualize dedicating my life to helping one person at a time with their individual problems, as noble and necessary as a pursuit that undoubtedly is. 

All that being said - you've helped me tremendously, and I appreciate it more than I can say. You seem like you're very good at this already, and whatever MSW program you choose (or have already chosen) will certainly be lucky to have you. Thank you.

 

[doctormelody]

On 2/21/2020 at 7:31 AM, anelab said:

First, I would say get a new therapist if you are able. Don't stop looking until you find a good fit.

Second, the debt is going to be there whether you stop going or not. If you finish, the three letters after your name will help you get a job (it's elitist and capitalist but what can you do?). Is there a Dean of Academic Affairs you could talk to? Or a trusted professor? When I was having doubts about my MSW, I talked to the only professor I had liked at that point and she completely changed everything for me. 

No one can make the decision but you, and no one here will have to live with the consequences of this choice either way. I'd encourage you to look into the diversity of the field before you decide though. Have you thought about macro? Policy? Research? Evaluation? Private sector? Medical social work (both case work and not)? Public health social work? School social work? There are so many options for people who don't want to be therapists, I have no idea why therapy is presented as the main option.

Good luck! (Oh and if anyone is making you feel shitty for having debt and being unsure of your life path, dump them from your life. This is normal and not something to be shamed about)

Thank you so much for your reply. I'm sorry it took me so long to respond; life has been crazy lately.

If you don't mind me asking, what were your doubts and what did your professor say to change your mind, if you can recall it with any specificity? I don't really have anyone I can talk to about this besides my friends and my partner. My one professor that I really like and trust sits on the committee for a fellowship that I am applying to, so I can't really let her know how unsure I feel about everything. I haven't even told my friends in the program how I'm feeling because I'm too ashamed. If I don't get the fellowship, though (which at this point seems likely), maybe I'll see if she has time to meet with me.

Your point about there being many other avenues in this field that I could pursue besides therapy is a good one. I guess I am scared that if I go the macro route I will be less employable because I feel there is nothing inherently special about me that would make me stand out to an employer, whereas it seems that more traditional social work jobs are usually pretty high in demand. I also hear your point about how having finished a degree looks better than dropping out halfway through in our elitist society. At this point I am really just doing a cost-benefit analysis as to whether having those three letters after my name is worth an additional 20,000 to 35,000 in debt, especially if I don't plan on following a career path where it would be required (for instance, if I was planning on getting my LCSW). It's a lot to consider but as I said before I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to leave such a thoughtful and helpful response to a somewhat incoherent post made in the throes of desperation. Thank you.

Oh, also, for what it's worth, no one is making me feel shitty about my life choices but me, but I appreciate the encouragement! Perhaps I should dump negative me.

[anelab]

10 hours ago, doctormelody said:

If you don't mind me asking, what were your doubts and what did your professor say to change your mind, if you can recall it with any specificity? I don't really have anyone I can talk to about this besides my friends and my partner. My one professor that I really like and trust sits on the committee for a fellowship that I am applying to, so I can't really let her know how unsure I feel about everything. I haven't even told my friends in the program how I'm feeling because I'm too ashamed. If I don't get the fellowship, though (which at this point seems likely), maybe I'll see if she has time to meet with me.

Your point about there being many other avenues in this field that I could pursue besides therapy is a good one. I guess I am scared that if I go the macro route I will be less employable because I feel there is nothing inherently special about me that would make me stand out to an employer, whereas it seems that more traditional social work jobs are usually pretty high in demand. I also hear your point about how having finished a degree looks better than dropping out halfway through in our elitist society. At this point I am really just doing a cost-benefit analysis as to whether having those three letters after my name is worth an additional 20,000 to 35,000 in debt, especially if I don't plan on following a career path where it would be required (for instance, if I was planning on getting my LCSW). It's a lot to consider but as I said before I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to leave such a thoughtful and helpful response to a somewhat incoherent post made in the throes of desperation. Thank you.

I'm going to reply through message.

 

[AlabasterSeas]

15 hours ago, doctormelody said:

Firstly, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to leave such a thoughtful, nuanced, and quite frankly beautiful reply. I am so sorry it took me so long to get back to you, but I want you to know that not only did I find this very comforting to read, I think you make a lot of sense. I know that I have a tendency to view things in black-and-white, and yet, no matter how many times I think I have eradicated that particular unfortunate habit, it keeps popping up in new and different ways. So thank you so much for that insight; it is very well-taken. 

I like your point about anxiety being a bad fortune-teller. You're absolutely right that I do want some assurance that everything will be okay if I continue with social work - that I'll be happy and fulfilled and make decent money or at least be able to get by. And it is very hard to separate whether I have a genuine dislike for the work or whether it is my self-doubt and anxiety that is making me feel like I'll always feel miserable and incapable and that I've made a terrible mistake. I will say that my internship right now is very hard on me mentally (my field placement is in a community mental health agency) and that it may not be representative of the field as a whole. That being said, I feel different from my peers in that I don't have a passion for mental health; the DSM is boring to me and I'm more concerned with what material improvements can be made to people's lives rather than the specifics of their particular disorder. It's possible I might enjoy a macro-focus more, but I'm worried that this would lead to more uncertain employment prospects, and it's probably too late to change my concentration.

My boyfriend said something the other day about how social work is kind of like bailing out a boat using a thimble and it struck me as very poignant. Maybe this is just my depressed brain talking and I certainly don't intend to be discouraging, but if my experience thus far in the field has taught me anything it's that the people I am trying to help would benefit far, far more from big structural changes in the way our society functions than from any support I might able to provide. I've always been a big picture, can't see the trees for the forest type of person, and I think I'm struggling to conceptualize dedicating my life to helping one person at a time with their individual problems, as noble and necessary as a pursuit that undoubtedly is. 

All that being said - you've helped me tremendously, and I appreciate it more than I can say. You seem like you're very good at this already, and whatever MSW program you choose (or have already chosen) will certainly be lucky to have you. Thank you.

 

Glad to hear from you! 

A few quick responses: "the DSM is boring to me and I'm more concerned with what material improvements can be made to people's lives rather than the specifics of their particular disorder." Yeah, what you describe sounds boring to me too. But, I think there are therapeutic approaches/styles where you're not falling asleep in a leather armchair with the DSM on your lap lol. Maybe you need to find an approach that is more your style? DBT, CBT, a holistic approach (my partner's therapist, an LCSW, is big on yoga), etc. Similarly, maybe you could try working with another population? Different people get along with different populations better and that's okay. Presently, I feel a lot of excitement around working with transitional age youth who are dealing with substance use issues. Some therapists do better working with lower-functioning clients and other therapists do better working with higher-functioning clients. It's possible that if you find an interesting approach/style and connect with an appropriate population for your interests, that will feel like more energizing work and might be easier for you to have a material impact on your clients' lives. And, keep in mind that the work you do as an MSW student might be more restrictive than the work you can do once you're "out there" (i.e. maybe your program didn't have the agency partnerships that would have been a better fit for you). 

If you are discovering more of a macro-level interest, that's great too! But remember it's not black and white: maybe there's a hybrid role for you out there where you can do both clinical and advocacy/systemic work (I know a lot of LCSWs who, in addition to meeting with clients,  do programmatic work, who drive to their state legislatures, who do grant-writing and fund-development, etc.). In my current (direct service but not clinical) role, I meet individually with clients as well as cofacilitate support groups, but also do local advocacy, work with other, similar programs across the state, plan social activities, etc.