Chances for MPA-ID Programs + Is a JD-MPA worth it?

[AppAdvice]

Hi all. I'm graduating from HYP with a degree in economics and a 3.73 gpa. My GRE is 168 V / 163 M / 5.5 WR. I'm going to start work at MBB (strategy consulting) soon, and after 2 years there was hoping to do an MPA-ID program. I have interesting research/internship experience. I've taken econometrics/micro/macro/stats but no calculus in college (did AB/BC and linear algebra in high school and haven't touched it since). I'm wondering what my chances are at HKS and Princeton MPA-ID programs? I'm also thinking about a joint JD-MPAID. Does anyone have a sense of what additional doors a JD opens if any? I'd likely only go if I got into a T-14.

Thanks!

Edited April 27, 2020 by AppAdvice

[Mppirgradschool]

19 minutes ago, AppAdvice said:

Hi all. I'm graduating from HYP with a degree in economics and a 3.73 gpa. My GRE is 680 V / 630 M / 5.5 WR. I'm going to start work at MBB (strategy consulting) soon, and after 2 years there was hoping to do an MPA-ID program. I have interesting research/internship experience. I've taken econometrics/micro/macro/stats but no calculus in college (did AB/BC and linear algebra in high school and haven't touched it since). I'm wondering what my chances are at HKS and Princeton MPA-ID programs? I'm also thinking about a joint JD-MPAID. Does anyone have a sense of what additional doors a JD opens if any? I know my GPA will put me at a comparative disadvantage, and I'd only want to do a T-7 law school to be honest, so that may not work out. 

Thanks!

Your future MBB WE and GPA make you competitive. It sounds like you took the GRE a while back, so you may need to retake and aim to get 163+ on the Quant section, given how MPA/ID and WWS MPA both prioritize an 80%+ Quant section score.

Personally, I'm not a fan of getting degrees just for the sake of getting degrees. If you are interested in a JD/MPA, I would seriously think about the MPA component, as JDs can get the same jobs as MPAs -- but not vice versa. Do you really need the MPA degree? Princeton is fully funded so that would be the only option I'd even consider in your situation, as you'll also have insane law school debt. Regarding Princeton WWS, you have to ask yourself if you think you need the extra degree and don't mind forgoing 18 months of big-law salary, which could equate to $300,000 in potential earnings. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Mppirgradschool

[AppAdvice]

Wow idk how I spaced out while writing my GRE scores... I took them a year ago and they're actually 168 V / 163 M / 5.5 WR

[AppAdvice]

So, I'm not very interested in big law -- it seems strictly worse than strategy consulting (though obviously given the up or out nature, not sure I'll have more than 2 years at MBB). Does a JD really 'replace' an MPP? I'm potentially interested in things like the World Bank's YPP program, and my sense is that MPP >> JD for that, for example. It seems like MPA-ID is more focused on quant/research, while JD is more focused on different skills (understanding the law and how it is written). I was considering adding the JD if my degree is partially subsidized (through fellowships of some sort, or sponsored by MBB) because it seems complimentary, since I'm potentially interested in the intersection of economic development and policy/lawmaking and it seems like a good terminal degree. Am I wrong here?

Edited April 27, 2020 by AppAdvice

[Mppirgradschool]

Sounds like the MPA/ID at either HKS or WWS would be a great fit, based on your future goals. Makes me hesitant to recommend you get a JD, as it's a huge commitment -- both timewise and moneywise.

WWS would allow you to go debt free, while HKS would require you to work an extra 2-3 years at your MBB firm upon graduation for it to be subsidized. This is also contingent upon MBB agreeing to subsidize a non-MBA degree, you'll have more insight into that than me if it's common practice in the U.S. 

[AppAdvice]

I'd love to be at WWS, though worried my time at MBB will actually be a hindrance when applying ('Candidates should plan to work in either the public or non-profit sectors for at least two years prior to applying')

[AppAdvice]

ETA: Does a JD work as a pathway to a public policy career? Good or bad idea?

[Mppirgradschool]

Other people may have more insight into this, but these are my 2 cents. The people with JDs that I have worked with typically have a General Counsel type role in the organization and look over the policy minutiae/nitty gritty specifics. When drafting policies/implementing projects, I go to them as a final approver to ensure we are complying. I am guessing you will have a similar experience at MBB.

I can imagine that the strength of the JD, when referring to public sector prospects, lies in its ability to get you an AUSA/ADA role in the Justice Dept/State Govt, this typically leads to a successful domestic public sector career (although many branch out to private sector eventually). I know that the JD is not considered a prerequisite degree for the YPP program at WB, so unsure that it will benefit you particularly .

Edited April 27, 2020 by Mppirgradschool

[GradSchoolGrad]

5 hours ago, AppAdvice said:

ETA: Does a JD work as a pathway to a public policy career? Good or bad idea?

I think the best way to think of it is in terms of Venn diagrams. There is definitely a convergence point of jobs between MPPs and JD's and that convergence point is definitely growing. This convergence point is especially true policy areas that lend themselves to be concurrently legalistic and nature and requiring an understanding of policy processes + management. Three examples I have seen in this convergence is tech policy, juvenile policy, and environmental policy. If you think about it, these areas absolutely make sense because they have very strong legalistic flavors to it involved in the policy process + management. Generally speaking in areas of convergence the JD person usually wins out because the population of JDs seeking policy oriented jobs is actually quite small, so their skills are generally cherished (this population is however growing).

I will say that as a dual MBA/MPP, whenever I went head on against a JD for a role listed as JD/MPP/or MPA, even in a policy area I had a lot of background experience on, I always lost in applications / interviews. 

On the MPP only side of the Venn diagram, those jobs generally tend to be more either A: more data oriented or B: simply hasn't received much attention from JDs (i.e. K-12 budgeting policy, you won't see many JDs play there). 

On the JD only side of the Venn diagram, those are more of the pure legalistic roles. As in you will be reading legal documents and need to formulate legal interpretations. 

I think for you it depends on how and where you want to play public policy. If you want to play public policy in an area in which there is a lot of legal contentions, JD is > MPP. However, the moment it touches data, MPP > JD.

[GradSchoolGrad]

6 hours ago, AppAdvice said:

I'd love to be at WWS, though worried my time at MBB will actually be a hindrance when applying ('Candidates should plan to work in either the public or non-profit sectors for at least two years prior to applying')

1. That might be a WWS thing, but I met a lot of former consultants in other top tier policy schools.

2. I bet if you engaged them, that is a preference and not a hard and fast rule. 

I will say that one real thing is that in some parts of public policy spaces, there is definitely this hostility against people who came from the private sector. Increasingly, I have been hearing anecdotes of sentiments for purity (AKA: culturally preferring people who stayed in the public interest space). Thoughts like "we don't think so and so would be a good fit for our public policy organization because that person has too much private sector experience". However, I speak of this more to a domestic policy lens. On the flip side, consulting skills are beginning to be more and more valued across the policy space... period. For example in K-12 education, there are organizations that take former MBB consultants to whip up plans for the regions/states to execute.

Edited April 28, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[GradSchoolGrad]

8 hours ago, AppAdvice said:

Hi all. I'm graduating from HYP with a degree in economics and a 3.73 gpa. My GRE is 168 V / 163 M / 5.5 WR. I'm going to start work at MBB (strategy consulting) soon, and after 2 years there was hoping to do an MPA-ID program. I have interesting research/internship experience. I've taken econometrics/micro/macro/stats but no calculus in college (did AB/BC and linear algebra in high school and haven't touched it since). I'm wondering what my chances are at HKS and Princeton MPA-ID programs? I'm also thinking about a joint JD-MPAID. Does anyone have a sense of what additional doors a JD opens if any? I'd likely only go if I got into a T-14.

Thanks!

So my biggest advice to you is to make sure you absolutely know what you want to do in terms of a policy space. I meet so many people who start going into policy schools thinking that they want to do one thing and then realizing that they want to something completely different on the way out. I recommend that instead of thinking about going to grad school, focus on rocking your first year at your MBB firm. At the end of year 1, do a pulse check on an exit strategy and then network to hunt for more information.

When I graduated undergrad, I thought I was sold on going to IR school and set a timeline for myself and everything. Between appreciating what people really did coming out of IR school and changing life interests, I shifted my grad school interests and life goals. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[jenna01]

I’m a MPA candidate married to a law student (both at an Ivy league school) and we both agree duel degrees are not worth it unless you have a very specific reason for getting it (for example running a non-profit that does legal work or doing a highly specialized type of legal research that overlaps with a policy field your MPP school specializes in). Otherwise just get a JD, you qualify for the same jobs as an MPA but have more options open to you and the pay is generally higher. Sounds like you don’t know exactly what you want out of your degree though so I would also caution against getting any of these degrees unless you have a basic 5 year plan of what you are going to do with them given that you will probably graduate into a not great economy with a significant amount of debt.

[AppAdvice]

Yeah I'm not 100% sure what I want to do. My general plan rn was 2 yrs at MBB, 1-2 yrs doing some sort of fellowship(s) that involve reading, writing, and researching in the Middle East (ex; Fulbright, JPAL, even journalism internationally), an MPA-ID, and then World Bank YPP or similar program (FAO, IFC, ICAO, OECD, United Nations, IAEA, UNICEF, WTO, UNESCO, OSCE...).

I feel like coming out of undergrad I really don't have a good sense of 'what is out there' so to speak, and it's hard to figure out where to start learning that. I think MBB will only give me a very specific perspective. I'm interested in economic development focused on the Middle East, but could be interested in applying that to the U.S. or other countries as well. I've mostly done public health, behavioral economics, and urban planning-centered work within the development space.

Long-term I'd like to be based in Europe or the U.S. (DC seems particularly promising). I've enjoyed doing economics research, writing for a public audience, and thinking about policy in the past. I don't think I'd enjoy the experience of running for elected office, but something about working in politics attracts me. I'd enjoy having a pretty eclectic career (bouncing from journalism, to research, to entrepreneurship) in the short term.

I think my options are (1) international org like WB, IMF, UN etc. (2) think tank research (3) work with politicians/policymakers somehow (unclear what positions exist, I truly know nothing about 'the hill') (4) have a government position myself focused on policymaking (again, not sure what's out there) (5) work at an NGO.

Am I missing anything? Also, I feel like for all of those the JD isn't the 'right' degree, or am I wrong here?

Edited April 28, 2020 by AppAdvice

[GradSchoolGrad]

9 hours ago, AppAdvice said:

Yeah I'm not 100% sure what I want to do. My general plan rn was 2 yrs at MBB, 1-2 yrs doing some sort of fellowship(s) that involve reading, writing, and researching in the Middle East (ex; Fulbright, JPAL, even journalism internationally), an MPA-ID, and then World Bank YPP or similar program (FAO, IFC, ICAO, OECD, United Nations, IAEA, UNICEF, WTO, UNESCO, OSCE...).

I feel like coming out of undergrad I really don't have a good sense of 'what is out there' so to speak, and it's hard to figure out where to start learning that. I think MBB will only give me a very specific perspective. I'm interested in economic development focused on the Middle East, but could be interested in applying that to the U.S. or other countries as well. I've mostly done public health, behavioral economics, and urban planning-centered work within the development space.

Long-term I'd like to be based in Europe or the U.S. (DC seems particularly promising). I've enjoyed doing economics research, writing for a public audience, and thinking about policy in the past. I don't think I'd enjoy the experience of running for elected office, but something about working in politics attracts me. I'd enjoy having a pretty eclectic career (bouncing from journalism, to research, to entrepreneurship) in the short term.

I think my options are (1) international org like WB, IMF, UN etc. (2) think tank research (3) work with politicians/policymakers somehow (unclear what positions exist, I truly know nothing about 'the hill') (4) have a government position myself focused on policymaking (again, not sure what's out there) (5) work at an NGO.

Am I missing anything? Also, I feel like for all of those the JD isn't the 'right' degree, or am I wrong here?

I think generally under some of what you want to do now, JD isn't the right degree.

However, at the end of the day, you don't know what you want to do... so there is no way to guide you when you don't have a compass. I think you just need to start socializing with people in areas you are interested in and get a feel what works for you.

I think you are really undercutting your opportunities in MBB. There are opportunities to work for non-profit clients at all 3 MBBs and at least McKinsey and BCG (I don't know about Bain), they have significant social impact or policy oriented consulting arms that you can do side projects in or even jump into and can be jumping off points. Also McKinsey and BCG have robust federal practices (they just aren't talked about much), if you want to have a greater feel for urban planning centered work or public health. I was reading a Washington, DC metro analysis once, and it was done by McKinsey.

Like I said, to get the meaningful letters of recommendation at MBB to go to an awesome law places and etc, you need to be a rock star at MBB first. Just look at former Presidential Candidate Pete Buttigieg. He had an economic redevelopment project at McKinsey. 

Also... I would be careful about what you wish for about going into JPAL, World Bank, or YPP. I know a lot of people who are really unhappy at the World Bank (contractors and full time). In some of these organizations, the people I know from my school that went are people I pray, I never have to see again. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[Mppirgradschool]

22 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

I think generally under some of what you want to do now, JD isn't the right degree.

However, at the end of the day, you don't know what you want to do... so there is no way to guide you when you don't have a compass. I think you just need to start socializing with people in areas you are interested in and get a feel what works for you.

I think you are really undercutting your opportunities in MBB. There are opportunities to work for non-profit clients at all 3 MBBs and at least McKinsey and BCG (I don't know about Bain), they have significant social impact or policy oriented consulting arms that you can do side projects in or even jump into and can be jumping off points. Also McKinsey and BCG have robust federal practices (they just aren't talked about much), if you want to have a greater feel for urban planning centered work or public health. I was reading a Washington, DC metro analysis once, and it was done by McKinsey.

Like I said, to get the meaningful letters of recommendation at MBB to go to an awesome law places and etc, you need to be a rock star at MBB first. Just look at former Presidential Candidate Pete Buttigieg. He had an economic redevelopment project at McKinsey. 

Also... I would be careful about what you wish for about going into JPAL, World Bank, or YPP. I know a lot of people who are really unhappy at the World Bank (contractors and full time). In some of these organizations, the people I know from my school that went are people I pray, I never have to see again. 

Second this, MBB also places its alums into elite non-profit orgs/foundations such as the Gates and Clinton Foundations, in strategy and operations roles. Gates Foundation pays exceptionally well, btw.

I know people at MBB that have also done interesting work with city governments, advising them on a variety of issues spanning from how to improve city traffic congestion to how to reduce deficits.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Mppirgradschool

[Boolakanaka]

I have both degrees and work in public policy for over three decades (I lead my own consulting firm, but have also previously worked for several US Senators, US State Department,  large law firms and consulting firms), and while I have done both, I would say for most, both degrees are usually superfluous. Few folks actually work in both areas, and thus it’s more economically efficient and prudent to choose the area in which you have the most interest and let your educational decisions symmetrically follow.

[EspressoDoble]

 

4 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

I know a lot of people who are really unhappy at the World Bank (contractors and full time). In some of these organizations, the people I know from my school that went are people I pray, I never have to see again. 

Ah, this was confusing - I've heard of SIPA folks (and others) being unhappy with the bureaucracy at World Bank. Is that what you're referring to? Also, why do you never want to see them again? Because they weren't good-enough intellectually at class, or because they were too arrogant and big-headed (to use a Malcolm Gladwell term)?  

 

 

[GradSchoolGrad]

2 hours ago, EspressoDoble said:

 

Ah, this was confusing - I've heard of SIPA folks (and others) being unhappy with the bureaucracy at World Bank. Is that what you're referring to? Also, why do you never want to see them again? Because they weren't good-enough intellectually at class, or because they were too arrogant and big-headed (to use a Malcolm Gladwell term)?  

 

 

Well I think I should probably explain my comments in two pieces.

1. Some of the prestigious post MPP development roles - World Bank, JPAL, and etc., I have heard anecdotal feedback that:

A. It isn't the best working environment --> the biggest thing

B. Relatively low compensation

C. Ambigious impact

D. Disappointment with professional growth and development

2. The reason why I am less than interested to reunite with most people I know who went to such programs (exceptions are always abound) is because these were the people I knew in grad school always talked about chasing the dream to work at XYZ prestigious organization as a means of flexing their self-importance. In all fairness they were very intellectually capable beings. My issue with them wasn't arrogance per se, but lack of interest in actual impact. Instead, it was about proving to themselves they can do it to outdo others in the field, and not to make a difference.

That was one of the most interesting things I found in my MPP experience + saw when essentially camped out at Fletcher (and I will note that my family members who gone to MPP or other policy related / IR programs did not have the same experience). I imagined that a lot of people went to MPP or IR schools to make some level of impact that they were passionate about out of the interest of public service, innovation, or just doing something cool. 

Instead, I found a disturbing proportionality of people that I met who saw graduate school as a vehicle to advertise/justify how great they were because they could succeed (or at least perceived to succeed) in XYZ field. Conversations (even in class) were more about how so and so could take credit for XYZ rather than the opportunity to improve people's lives. 

For example, when I was visiting Fletcher, a very representative conversation I had with someone was a student felt so proud she was able to publicly challenge high ranking government official guest speaker and being able to 1 up someone so high was a indicator of excellence. 

I prefer classmates, programs, and learning environment whereby the focus is developing solutions and not self-aggrandizement, but I have learned that a big part of the public policy space (academically and otherwise) is about showing off your flexing on a regular basis (be it justified or not) over making meaningful solutions. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[EspressoDoble]

Wow, everything you have said is very insightful. Thank you for sharing that. 

 

1 hour ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

The reason why I am less than interested to reunite with most people I know who went to such programs (exceptions are always abound) is because these were the people I knew in grad school always talked about chasing the dream to work at XYZ prestigious organization as a means of flexing their self-importance. In all fairness they were very intellectually capable beings. My issue with them wasn't arrogance per se, but lack of interest in actual impact. Instead, it was about proving to themselves they can do it to outdo others in the field, and not to make a difference.

You know - I completely get this part. I'm on the online forums (for admitted students) of three schools and the self-important introductions are killing me here. I suspect there are people who genuinely care about ground-level work and making an impact, but those souls are probably getting drowned out by the louder ones. Every introduction reads like the person has mastered three dead languages, plays four instruments, and has started a successful non-profit in the Amazonian jungles that employs 200 people, all by the age of 10. Really, y'all never had any failures in life? 

On a side-note, I wouldn't have expected that from Fletcher, if only because they aren't a Ivy like WWS and HKS (and also because I have a soft-spot for that underdog). 

You went to Georgetown. I presume/hope you were able to find a few people that you genuinely connected with?  

Edited April 28, 2020 by EspressoDoble

[GradSchoolGrad]

3 hours ago, EspressoDoble said:

Wow, everything you have said is very insightful. Thank you for sharing that. 

 

You know - I completely get this part. I'm on the online forums (for admitted students) of three schools and the self-important introductions are killing me here. I suspect there are people who genuinely care about ground-level work and making an impact, but those souls are probably getting drowned out by the louder ones. Every introduction reads like the person has mastered three dead languages, plays four instruments, and has started a successful non-profit in the Amazonian jungles that employs 200 people, all by the age of 10. Really, y'all never had any failures in life? 

On a side-note, I wouldn't have expected that from Fletcher, if only because they aren't a Ivy like WWS and HKS (and also because I have a soft-spot for that underdog). 

You went to Georgetown. I presume/hope you were able to find a few people that you genuinely connected with?  

Actually, of all the schools I have ever visited, Fletcher was by far the worst in terms of flexing. I think it is because they feel overshadowed by Harvard and feel the need to compensate. I also heard so often from Fletcher people that it is practically like going to Harvard since they have access to Harvard classes, some Harvard resources, and Harvard club access some places. 

I want to be clear, I went to Georgetown McCourt. It has a drastically different culture than Georgetown MSFS (or make that any other graduate program in Georgetown for that matter). There were 4 major aspects to the culture there that added up to all around nuttiness. 

1. The Visible Social Elite - Mega Flexers: There was a notable number of them with crazy high levels of self-promotion. If it was based on something genuinely meaningful, I would get it, but for the most part it was just self-promotion and hyping up brands. I will say this crowd did have good backgrounds but were the people you did not want to be stuck on a group project with. 

2. A very clique majority society: A majority of people belonged to cliques and would talk about what cliques they belonged to regularly. This created a very much ingroup-outgroup culture on many levels. This was actually worse than I had seen in undergrad (and my college was majority Greek social scene). 

3. A large group of people that are highly comfortable to wallow in dissatisfaction: A common topic of conversation how bad life is (grades, rejections from internships, job challenges). I'm not talking about your run of the mill gripes, but it was frowned upon to have a positive upbeat can do attitude about things because other people will feel bad that they aren't being positive and comment about it. What this meant was that the culture was to blame other people and never take responsibility for anything. Example (real comment I heard): I can't get the summer internship I want because the Harvard kids have better brand than me. 

4. Be afraid to have meaningful political/policy conversations: Never in my life have I heard so little political/policy discourse, which is really sad since this is a graduate program. People preferred to be "nice" and never have any political or policy discussions. The way this manifested is a public culture of agreement. Be it left wing, right wing, or anything in between, views publicly mentioned was just acknowledged and rarely debated because that was the right thing to do. One of the most popular people in McCourt was a rather extreme right winger, but in a culture of  "nice", everyone just thought his views were "cute" and there was no desire or interest to learn about how and why he got his views. Anyone who broke the norm would be told to hush. I was when I simply asked an studen to expand on his opinions in a class discussion setting. However, I was told I shouldn't be stressing people out to justify their policy opinions. 

To answer you question, I did find people I genuinely connected with, a few were people from some of the cliques, who didn't take it seriously. But most of them were the "independent operators" who managed to find ways to disregard the grad school society and do things their way. 

I always realized the culture was strange... but I never realized how problematic until I randomly went to a talk about how the #1 problem and solution of any organization is its culture --> the picture became clear. 

What a Good Culture Looks Like: Surprisingly UK Schools (Oxbridge)

Some of my family members went to graduate school (policy related programs at the top UK programs), and that was a culture I marveled at. It wasn't perfect. However, what I really admired was how it was the cultural norm to go to the pub after class and talk about ANY and everything. Classmates were legitimately curious about each other's views and everywhere was a safe space to exchange ideas and challenge each other. There was some flexing going on, but it was a .. I'm doing XYZ awesome things, let me help you do other XYZ awesome things too. 

I also found HKS to have a rather positive professionally oriented culture as well when I visited a family member who went there, but that was for a less significant period of time than  I was at the UK schools. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[EspressoDoble]

26 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

people you did not want to be stuck on a group project with. 

Ooh, I've been to grad school before. There are always some that you don't want to be in a group project with. Ouch. 

27 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

To answer you question, I did find people I genuinely connected with, a few were people from some of the cliques, who didn't take it seriously. But most of them were the "independent operators" who managed to find ways to disregard the grad school society and do things their way. 

...

What a Good Culture Looks Like: Surprisingly UK Schools (Oxbridge)

Some of my family members went to graduate school (policy related programs at the elite UK programs), and that was a culture I marveled at. It wasn't perfect. However, what I really admired was how it was the cultural norm to go to the pub after class and talk about ANY and everything. Classmates were legitimately curious about each other's views and everywhere was a safe space to exchange ideas and challenge each other. There was some flexing going on, but it was a .. I'm doing XYZ awesome things, let me help you do other XYZ awesome things too. 

At my (now former) job, there were sacred cows that you couldn't talk about. At the same time, as the only data person, if I didn't speak up about these things, then I couldn't do my job well. The only way out was to be the occasional court fool, and to say the truth but in an irreverent manner because people can swallow difficult facts that way. Maybe I'll have to be an court fool at grad school too ?

What you're saying about Oxbridge - I've heard the same thing from an LSE alum who also attended Columbia. She said that she could be more direct and outspoken there, whereas it was frowned upon in Columbia. My guess is that it's a cultural thing, that in the US, there is a greater need for safe spaces and to protect other's feelings, especially in a field like policy (whereas that might not be as true in schools of law or business). 

On a side-note, I've noticed that ex-consultants (esp MBB) tend to be well-practiced at both flexing and at excessive jargon. Low-hanging fruit, directionally correct, boiling the ocean, and a recent addition, cadence.  

All said, five years after grad school, if you still have 2-3 good friends, then I think you've done well. Most people don't have that.