Do I need to take the GRE?

[switters]

Still in the early stages of researching schools, but these are the programs where I'm currently looking at applying to:

Goldman, Wagner, Trachtenberg, SIPA, McCourt, Maxwell, Price, Sanford, Evans, Bloustein.

All of these programs have made the GRE optional or grant some kind of waiver. I ask because the story with my GPA worries me. I dropped out of a top private school after a couple years with like a 2.0. I then went to community college for a year, and subsequently graduated from a top public school with a 3.65 GPA. I think if you average everything out it comes to like a 3.2. Since graduating, I've had a pretty decent career working in finance, real estate, high-growth startups, and campaigns for the last 5+ years.

Is my GPA something that I need to worry about when applying to these schools?

[tacos95]

If you think you can do well, it will only help you. Something to shore up that GPA and undulating attendance is definitely a good idea, and it's easy enough to take the practice test directly from ETS. I know a lot of people like to bash it, but it really is a fairly low cost way to show skills (others can debate the relevance of these skills, but they're skills nonetheless): 

- A few hours on a practice test to see if you already have what it takes to get a good score
- Minimal study time if you feel good after the dry run 
- A couple hundred bucks or whatever it is for the actual test

That's actually not that much of an outlay for the potentially huge payoff of showing yourself to be a serious candidate in those more competitive programs. Like it or not, the admissions process is all about appearance relative to the applicant pool. It is very much a private good in the technical sense: one person's admission means someone else was excluded. A good GRE result could increase your composite to just above someone else, getting you an admissions offer and hopefully funding. Heck, throw it on your resume if you get 90th percentile or higher and that's squeezing some extra value of whatever you have to put in.

If you take the practice test and get middling or low scores, it might take significant work to bring them up, and since you don't have to provide them, opting out may be warranted.

[columbia09]

I applied to SIPA and Wagner last year without scores and got in with no problem (I have a fairly high GPA though from a top public school). They’re both very expensive hence why I didn’t take the offers. Wagner just gave me $6,000 and SIPA $10,000, a spit in the bucket! 
 

I think most, of not all, of the mid career programs eliminated their GRE requirements (except HKS). I always said, the GRE should be used if you have a lower gpa that you need to make up for. I’d talk to the admissions reps and see what they have to say. 3.2 is an ok gpa but I don’t know what the averages are for those schools 

[columbia09]

1 hour ago, tacos95 said:

If you think you can do well, it will only help you. Something to shore up that GPA and undulating attendance is definitely a good idea, and it's easy enough to take the practice test directly from ETS. I know a lot of people like to bash it, but it really is a fairly low cost way to show skills (others can debate the relevance of these skills, but they're skills nonetheless): 

- A few hours on a practice test to see if you already have what it takes to get a good score
- Minimal study time if you feel good after the dry run 
- A couple hundred bucks or whatever it is for the actual test

That's actually not that much of an outlay for the potentially huge payoff of showing yourself to be a serious candidate in those more competitive programs. Like it or not, the admissions process is all about appearance relative to the applicant pool. It is very much a private good in the technical sense: one person's admission means someone else was excluded. A good GRE result could increase your composite to just above someone else, getting you an admissions offer and hopefully funding. Heck, throw it on your resume if you get 90th percentile or higher and that's squeezing some extra value of whatever you have to put in.

If you take the practice test and get middling or low scores, it might take significant work to bring them up, and since you don't have to provide them, opting out may be warranted.

A friend of mine did that for his GMATs and they laughed at him. No one, except for certain schools, cares about test scores especially in the working world 

[tacos95]

12 minutes ago, columbia09 said:

A friend of mine did that for his GMATs and they laughed at him. No one, except for certain schools, cares about test scores especially in the working world 

Yes, obviously not everyone cares about it. That's clearly quite different from it not having any value.

[tacos95]

18 minutes ago, columbia09 said:

I applied to SIPA and Wagner last year without scores and got in with no problem (I have a fairly high GPA though from a top public school). They’re both very expensive hence why I didn’t take the offers. Wagner just gave me $6,000 and SIPA $10,000, a spit in the bucket! 

Yeah, I think for people with good grades from big name undergrads, the GRE adds much less. But for somebody like me who got a 3.5 at a no-name liberal arts school, it can be a big deal. I was able to get significant funding at SAIS, McCourt and CMU Heinz, and I think that largely redounds to my GRE performance. I think OP's GPA situation similarly makes the GRE a good idea.

[GradSchoolGrad]

13 hours ago, switters said:

Still in the early stages of researching schools, but these are the programs where I'm currently looking at applying to:

Goldman, Wagner, Trachtenberg, SIPA, McCourt, Maxwell, Price, Sanford, Evans, Bloustein.

All of these programs have made the GRE optional or grant some kind of waiver. I ask because the story with my GPA worries me. I dropped out of a top private school after a couple years with like a 2.0. I then went to community college for a year, and subsequently graduated from a top public school with a 3.65 GPA. I think if you average everything out it comes to like a 3.2. Since graduating, I've had a pretty decent career working in finance, real estate, high-growth startups, and campaigns for the last 5+ years.

Is my GPA something that I need to worry about when applying to these schools?

So, there are three things to think about.

1. Getting into a school. I don't think you'll have trouble getting into 1/3rd of these schools assuming you have some work experience + solid recs and etc.

2. Getting scholarship. Without the GRE, getting scholarship will be much more difficult. GRE is a combination of helping their stats + extra point of confidence in admitting you regarding your ability to graduate.

3. Choosing the right school. It seems like you just went from the confetti of policy schools below Elite level HKS, Princeton, Harris... people can debate if SIPA is in that club or not). I don't think you given enough time on thinking what school best matches your career interests + policy area interests + desired student culture + location interests and etc. I recommend you think about that before you just throw names out there.

For example, my policy school McCourt was honestly not a good fit for me (and many others). It was a good place for people to pick up quant skills or work on Capital Hill to matriculate into more analytical based roles tied to the DC space. It was not a good place to work on state/local policy or do technology innovation and etc. 

[switters]

1 hour ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

3. Choosing the right school. It seems like you just went from the confetti of policy schools below Elite level HKS, Princeton, Harris... people can debate if SIPA is in that club or not). I don't think you given enough time on thinking what school best matches your career interests + policy area interests + desired student culture + location interests and etc. I recommend you think about that before you just throw names out there.

For example, my policy school McCourt was honestly not a good fit for me (and many others). It was a good place for people to pick up quant skills or work on Capital Hill to matriculate into more analytical based roles tied to the DC space. It was not a good place to work on state/local policy or do technology innovation and etc. 

You're absolutely right about this. As I mentioned, I'm still in the early stages of looking into schools and programs. I was just trying to put together a list of schools I'm generally interested in that don't require the GRE. I am primarily interested in Public/Nonprofit Management or Public & Social Sector Consulting. Geographically, I would like to continue living in NYC or the East Coast after graduation. I was also interested in programs at universities with good MBA programs, since there seems to be an employment benefit especially for consulting. Based on this, which would you strike from the list, and what would you add? What's the best way to learn about programs other than their website?

Edited August 27, 2020 by switters
Added a question

[Boolakanaka]

2 hours ago, switters said:

You're absolutely right about this. As I mentioned, I'm still in the early stages of looking into schools and programs. I was just trying to put together a list of schools I'm generally interested in that don't require the GRE. I am primarily interested in Public/Nonprofit Management or Public & Social Sector Consulting. Geographically, I would like to continue living in NYC or the East Coast after graduation. I was also interested in programs at universities with good MBA programs, since there seems to be an employment benefit especially for consulting. Based on this, which would you strike from the list, and what would you add? What's the best way to learn about programs other than their website?

I would certainly look at Yale SOM (probably the premier mba program with a long history of educating executives for the non-profit sector, in fact, it was not an MBA program until the late 1980s) in combo with the Jackson School. Close proximity to NYC and very extensive alum connectivity.

[GradSchoolGrad]

So some thoughts.

1. If you want to do Non-Profit Management, you'll be better served going to an MBA program that values social impact. I don't know how competitive you are, but Yale School of Management is probably the best school for that. Georgetown MBA is good too. The reason is because those finance management skills will give you a competitive edge. On the policy school side, the MPA would be better than a MPP.

2. If you want to do Public Management, MPA is better than MPP (generally speaking from a pure academic prep perspective... MPP exceptions to this would be like the Batten school at UVA). 

3. As for Public Sector Consulting (no such thing as "Social Sector" Consulting in the mainstream at this point), the first thing I ask you is... ARE YOU SURE? It might be the most lucrative career post policy school (short of lobbying or entrepreneurship), but all my friends who are in it (1 exception) hate it with passion and always talk about leaving (but golden handcuffs... AKA: being contractually obligated to work there or else lose on bonuses and/or tuition repayment). I know someone who left within a year from grad school actually.

The MBA connection can at times be true, but it isn't as straightforward. What really matters is what historical relationships consulting firms have established with recruiting policy school students. Sometimes, there is a connected relationship with the MBA. HOWEVER, there are plenty of times when the recruiter will tell the MBA school they want MBAs only and those in other programs are not eligible. Actually, at my policy program, we actually had a problem with MPPs cross-registering to take an an MBA class and then try to pass as an "MBA student" and go to recruiting events for consulting. The recruiters smoked them out fast. So basically, it is a case by case basis. I recommend you look at each school's employer roster over the years and where do people tend to go repeatedly over the years.

As for public sector consulting itself, its pretty much Deloitte (the King of public sector consulting), other major firms (BDO, Alvarez Marsal, Booz Allen Hamilton), and boutiques (some of them can be super cool). There isn't really that much to choose from beyond that. 

4. The best ways to learn about a program are to ask admissions to talk to student ambassadors (or whatever program they have like that). I would talk to at least 2 students and you should ask them the hard questions. if they sound too canned, you know something is going on. Asking people on this forum is not a bad idea.

5. Possible Considerations for Each School On your Roster:

Goldman - West Coast School means West Coast network and more West Coast leaning policy perspectives (which is decently different in some areas).  

Wagner - Very weak student experience & culture. Due to active NY City lives, there really isn't much of a vibrant community

Trachtenberg - not as data analytics intense as per MPP programs

SIPA - Like Wagner, there are frequent struggles with community since NY City is a distraction to student bonding

McCourt - Isn't career oriented (beyond data / Capital Hill stuff) and struggles to emphasize policy for purpose (counter-intuitive since it is Georgetown)

Maxwell - it is in Syracuse - period... 

Price - Like Goldman - West Coast

Sanford - Difficult to get experiential learning experiences in Durham

Evans - Like Goldman - West Coast network -  more difficult to transition to East

Bloustein - struggles with brand recognition (I have met quite a few impressive students though)

6. What you are missing with your grad school considerations. Do you want an MPP/MPA that is quant heavy or not so quant heavy? If you want to avoid quant (or at least heavy quant), your options will be rather limited. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[GradSchoolGrad]

12 minutes ago, Boolakanaka said:

I would certainly look at Yale SOM (probably the premier mba program with a long history of educating executives for the non-profit sector, in fact, it was not an MBA program until the late 1980s) in combo with the Jackson School. Close proximity to NYC and very extensive alum connectivity.

Ha... I think its hilarious that we both pointed to Yale SOM... 

Jackson school is more focused on international relations stuff, not exactly a policy school though. But you can dual degree with other schools... Generally speaking, I don't recommend dual degreeing unless you have a very compelling argument (I dual degreed). 

Edited August 27, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[GradSchoolGrad]

8 hours ago, columbia09 said:

A friend of mine did that for his GMATs and they laughed at him. No one, except for certain schools, cares about test scores especially in the working world 

@tacos95 actually has a point. It is ridiculous to put it up on a resume after graduation. However, when in school, especially if you have a weaker academic/professional background, posting it to show you are among the top performers can help. A lot of recruiters recruiting from grad schools (which is usually a separate recruiting process than their non-campus hiring) will want to know standardized test scores. I know some companies that won't take an applicant with a low standardized score unless it can be overridden by an internal referral. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[switters]

33 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

So some thoughts.

1. If you want to do Non-Profit Management, you'll be better served going to an MBA program that values social impact. I don't know how competitive you are, but Yale School of Management is probably the best school for that. Georgetown MBA is good too. The reason is because those finance management skills will give you a competitive edge. On the policy school side, the MPA would be better than a MPP.

2. If you want to do Public Management, MPA is better than MPP (generally speaking from a pure academic prep perspective... MPP exceptions to this would be like the Batten school at UVA). 

3. As for Public Sector Consulting (no such thing as "Social Sector" Consulting in the mainstream at this point), the first thing I ask you is... ARE YOU SURE? It might be the most lucrative career post policy school (short of lobbying or entrepreneurship), but all my friends who are in it (1 exception) hate it with passion and always talk about leaving (but golden handcuffs... AKA: being contractually obligated to work there or else lose on bonuses and/or tuition repayment). I know someone who left within a year from grad school actually.

The MBA connection can at times be true, but it isn't as straightforward. What really matters is what historical relationships consulting firms have established with recruiting policy school students. Sometimes, there is a connected relationship with the MBA. HOWEVER, there are plenty of times when the recruiter will tell the MBA school they want MBAs only and those in other programs are not eligible. Actually, at my policy program, we actually had a problem with MPPs cross-registering to take an an MBA class and then try to pass as an "MBA student" and go to recruiting events for consulting. The recruiters smoked them out fast. So basically, it is a case by case basis. I recommend you look at each school's employer roster over the years and where do people tend to go repeatedly over the years.

As for public sector consulting itself, its pretty much Deloitte (the King of public sector consulting), other major firms (BDO, Alvarez Marsal, Booz Allen Hamilton), and boutiques (some of them can be super cool). There isn't really that much to choose from beyond that. 

4. The best ways to learn about a program are to ask admissions to talk to student ambassadors (or whatever program they have like that). I would talk to at least 2 students and you should ask them the hard questions. if they sound too canned, you know something is going on. Asking people on this forum is not a bad idea.

5. Possible Considerations for Each School On your Roster:

Goldman - West Coast School means West Coast network and more West Coast leaning policy perspectives (which is decently different in some areas).  

Wagner - Very weak student experience & culture. Due to active NY City lives, there really isn't much of a vibrant community

Trachtenberg - not as data analytics intense as per MPP programs

SIPA - Like Wagner, there are frequent struggles with community since NY City is a distraction to student bonding

McCourt - Isn't career oriented (beyond data / Capital Hill stuff) and struggles to emphasize policy for purpose (counter-intuitive since it is Georgetown)

Maxwell - it is in Syracuse - period... 

Price - Like Goldman - West Coast

Sanford - Difficult to get experiential learning experiences in Durham

Evans - Like Goldman - West Coast network -  more difficult to transition to East

Bloustein - struggles with brand recognition (I have met quite a few impressive students though)

6. What you are missing with your grad school considerations. Do you want an MPP/MPA that is quant heavy or not so quant heavy? If you want to avoid quant (or at least heavy quant), your options will be rather limited. 

This is incredibly helpful. Thank you!

[Boolakanaka]

4 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

Ha... I think its hilarious that we both pointed to Yale SOM... 

Jackson school is more focused on international relations stuff, not exactly a policy school though. But you can dual degree with other schools... Generally speaking, I don't recommend dual degreeing unless you have a very compelling argument (I dual degreed). 

Yep, I think his problem would not be per se Jackson, but rather SOM. They want to see a previous and delineated connectivity to service—their specific approach to an MBA is becoming more and more popular, and is a niche many are finding appealing.

[juanlisa]

On 8/27/2020 at 2:05 PM, GradSchoolGrad said:

2. Getting scholarship. Without the GRE, getting scholarship will be much more difficult. GRE is a combination of helping their stats + extra point of confidence in admitting you regarding your ability to graduate.

This. I worked in a graduate admissions office for the last two years. When the school waived the GRE requirement this spring, having no GRE meant you would get the average scholarship with the rest of your admission stats. I would recommend checking the average GRE scores for each program and submitting to the school if you exceed that.