Lack of development experience for IDev/MPA-ID kind programs?

[giraff]

But then I took a look at the people from those IDev / MPA/ID classes from the top programs, they're usually one of the two profiles:

1. They almost came from the same places, usually with 3+ years of experience: J-PAL/IPA/IDinsight, World Bank/IGO, Central Bank of their countries or the Ministry of Development, the UN. If from the private sector, the person worked for an MBB or a large IB for 3+ years in projects for the government or funded their own NGO.
2. If not from those places, or with less experience, they did BA Economics from a prestigious American university (say, Berkeley).

I'm sad because I prepared for so long for this application cycle: Economics undergrad from the top uni in my country, vast research experience in policy, cool volunteering, worked in policy/development in a developing country, strong LoRs and GRE scores... but my experience is fuzzy:

• I worked for 2 years in a Specialist policy/government position, and had to report the development programs of said company to the UN Global Compact, but this company is not MBB or IB - it was a mining company.
• I volunteered, but not for the UN - one was a RA for an Oxford program, and another in a small NGO in my hometown.
• I worked for a IGO, but not for 3+ years. The project ended after 1 year and 8 months.

My academic background is very appropriate for PhD in Political Science, but I decided to not follow this route anymore. So I want to do this Masters exactly to pivot into this industry.

I'm finding really hard to get an IDev kind of job with my experience in my home country (in here, one must have good connections to get in). I want to be able to do policy research and perhaps, in the future, get into a Policy PhD program, so I need a masters with heavy Economics workload, so MPP would not cut for it, it seems. 

I'm almost certain my profile does not fit the "cookie cutter" with what I've been seeing... perhaps it is a better idea to just apply for a MA in Economics? 

Edited October 23, 2022 by giraff

[Westpolicy]

Honestly it depends on each program.  Some MPA/ MPP programs are quant heavy.  Harris ( U-Chicago) has quant/ Econ heavy programs.  Also, Princeton MPA has Field IV Economics and Public Policy which is more economics/ quant heavy than the other fields for their MPA.  Check with each school about your desire to focus on economics and see what they say about their programs. 

Do a bit more research, attend online sessions, speak with admissions, etc.  I think it is fine to also apply for MA in Economics if you want to do that.  

 I think it is important to quantify what you have done professionally and academically and why you need this degree at this time and how the degree will get you to where you want to go career-wise.  

I wouldn’t compare yourself to other profiles.  Having an economics degree from a university is great and you sound like you have good work and volunteer experience.  Focus on what you want and what you need to do to get there.  Good luck! 

 

[GradSchoolGrad]

On 10/23/2022 at 11:32 AM, giraff said:

But then I took a look at the people from those IDev / MPA/ID classes from the top programs, they're usually one of the two profiles:

1. They almost came from the same places, usually with 3+ years of experience: J-PAL/IPA/IDinsight, World Bank/IGO, Central Bank of their countries or the Ministry of Development, the UN. If from the private sector, the person worked for an MBB or a large IB for 3+ years in projects for the government or funded their own NGO.
2. If not from those places, or with less experience, they did BA Economics from a prestigious American university (say, Berkeley).

I'm sad because I prepared for so long for this application cycle: Economics undergrad from the top uni in my country, vast research experience in policy, cool volunteering, worked in policy/development in a developing country, strong LoRs and GRE scores... but my experience is fuzzy:

• I worked for 2 years in a Specialist policy/government position, and had to report the development programs of said company to the UN Global Compact, but this company is not MBB or IB - it was a mining company.
• I volunteered, but not for the UN - one was a RA for an Oxford program, and another in a small NGO in my hometown.
• I worked for a IGO, but not for 3+ years. The project ended after 1 year and 8 months.

My academic background is very appropriate for PhD in Political Science, but I decided to not follow this route anymore. So I want to do this Masters exactly to pivot into this industry.

I'm finding really hard to get an IDev kind of job with my experience in my home country (in here, one must have good connections to get in). I want to be able to do policy research and perhaps, in the future, get into a Policy PhD program, so I need a masters with heavy Economics workload, so MPP would not cut for it, it seems. 

I'm almost certain my profile does not fit the "cookie cutter" with what I've been seeing... perhaps it is a better idea to just apply for a MA in Economics? 

A big picture you are missing is that Development jobs overall (for lots and lots of reasons I can make a podcast about) have decreased in the past decade, so there is overall less demand for people interested in development. So naturally, the pipelines going through IDEV have only become drastically more competitive,

[giraff]

On 10/23/2022 at 5:29 PM, Westpolicy said:

Honestly it depends on each program.  Some MPA/ MPP programs are quant heavy.  Harris ( U-Chicago) has quant/ Econ heavy programs.  Also, Princeton MPA has Field IV Economics and Public Policy which is more economics/ quant heavy than the other fields for their MPA.  Check with each school about your desire to focus on economics and see what they say about their programs. 

Do a bit more research, attend online sessions, speak with admissions, etc.  I think it is fine to also apply for MA in Economics if you want to do that.  

 I think it is important to quantify what you have done professionally and academically and why you need this degree at this time and how the degree will get you to where you want to go career-wise.  

I wouldn’t compare yourself to other profiles.  Having an economics degree from a university is great and you sound like you have good work and volunteer experience.  Focus on what you want and what you need to do to get there.  Good luck! 

 

My referees pointed out that in order to "keep the doors open" for a potential Policy PhD I must have formal Economics training during my Masters, and such "Economics" focused MPAs such as HKS MPA-ID or Princeton's MPA Field IV have intermediate/advanced micro and macro courses. That I already know. My worry is that my lack of specific professional experience is not enough to enter those highly competitive programs.

9 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

A big picture you are missing is that Development jobs overall (for lots and lots of reasons I can make a podcast about) have decreased in the past decade, so there is overall less demand for people interested in development. So naturally, the pipelines going through IDEV have only become drastically more competitive,

Hmm... I didn't get it, that is to demotivate me to pursue the Masters? hahahah or to point out candidates will not have the necessary experience?

[Westpolicy]

if you have good grades from your Econ undergrad that will be a big + for  quant heavy programs. Add in a good GRE and relevant work experience ++.  

I understand you’re worried about your work experience.  I might be wrong but based on your writing you have worked about 4 years (2 years policy position for mining and 1 year 8 months for IGO).  Is this correct? What are you doing now?  Volunteering is also good.  Most people understand grants end so only having 1 year 8 months is understandable if explained.  What were your accomplishments in this time? Why did it end after 1 year 8 months (lack of funding, project finished)?  You don’t need to answer me just something for you to think about.  

You don’t necessarily need a fancy name brand, it is more about the professional experience and showing you can do the quant work.

It is also ok to speak to the difficulty in obtaining IdEV roles in your country and how you would like X degree and experience from X school (internships, network, working with X professor) in order to pivot into those types of roles in your home country.  
GL.

 

 

 

[GradSchoolGrad]

1. About PhD - as long as you go to a graduate program that has some level of quant and get good grades (like As), it doesn't hurt you and helps you. That being said, you might have to start the program from scratch. By that I mean, do the basic level quant classes required of the PhD. You don't get to escape out of those.

2. Regarding Jobs - I'm seeing two interesting trends about IDEV. A. Because jobs are getting harder to get (across the world), people are self-selecting out of IDEV connected career paths via grad school out of concern that it might not be a viable pathway to pay their student debts upon graduate. B. You are seeing so many super competitive candidates because they can easily pivot from IDEV (if it doesn't work out) to an alternative career because their backgrounds are so robust, and they have the luxury to try out iDEV.

3. Your Opportunities: The question is not about you ability to get into Grad School for IDEV, it is about how elite of a school do you need to get into. You might not be able to get to the most competitive school, but you could probably get into an IDEV related masters as a less competitive program. Getting a job is on you (regardless of where you go).

Edited October 26, 2022 by GradSchoolGrad

[GradSchoolGradd]

On 10/24/2022 at 9:56 PM, GradSchoolGrad said:

A big picture you are missing is that Development jobs overall (for lots and lots of reasons I can make a podcast about) have decreased in the past decade, so there is overall less demand for people interested in development. So naturally, the pipelines going through IDEV have only become drastically more competitive,

In what universe have development jobs decreased over the past decade? WTF are you even talking about. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

4 hours ago, GradSchoolGradd said:

In what universe have development jobs decreased over the past decade? WTF are you even talking about. 

The real world whereby:

1. COVID paused a lot of IDEV activity for 2 years or so

2. The US’s gradual pull back from IDEV (overall) since the Obama administration (hallmarked by the withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan) across the world.

3. The slowdown of China’s belt and road policy and global lending dried up capital.

4. The increasing cost of capital (granted this is since COVID).

Those are the macro that has led to less IDEV jobs both sourced from the US and broadly speaking outside of it. My friends have had to change roles, leave IDEV, or slow down their career trajectory consequently.

Now as a civil adult, please tell me how you see things differently?

 

[GradSchoolGradd]

36 minutes ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

The real world whereby:

1. COVID paused a lot of IDEV activity for 2 years or so

2. The US’s gradual pull back from IDEV (overall) since the Obama administration (hallmarked by the withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan) across the world.

3. The slowdown of China’s belt and road policy and global lending dried up capital.

4. The increasing cost of capital (granted this is since COVID).

Those are the macro that has led to less IDEV jobs both sourced from the US and broadly speaking outside of it. My friends have had to change roles, leave IDEV, or slow down their career trajectory consequently.

Now as a civil adult, please tell me how you see things differently?

 

Lol each one of those things are easily disproved with a quick Google search. Also, I actually work in international development (literally nobody calls it IDEV). All of your so-called "insights" on this forum are from "friends" or family. I.e., you're just parroting total nonsense. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, GradSchoolGradd said:

Lol each one of those things are easily disproved with a quick Google search. Also, I actually work in international development (literally nobody calls it IDEV). All of your so-called "insights" on this forum are from "friends" or family. I.e., you're just parroting total nonsense. 

Then please share with us your macro narrative from your world.

[Boolakanaka]

On 10/28/2022 at 9:38 AM, GradSchoolGradd said:

In what universe have development jobs decreased over the past decade? WTF are you even talking about. 

Why you are mad homie?

If you think you are Kofi Annan, go ahead a get your groove on, and leave this board and resplend us with some peace and quiet.....

[GradSchoolGrad]

On 10/28/2022 at 3:15 PM, GradSchoolGradd said:

Lol each one of those things are easily disproved with a quick Google search. Also, I actually work in international development (literally nobody calls it IDEV). All of your so-called "insights" on this forum are from "friends" or family. I.e., you're just parroting total nonsense. 

Lets talk about a quick Google search.

https://foreignassistance.gov/aid-trends

Look at US assistance in 2015 ($54B) vs. 2021 ($35B) all in 2020 dollars. This follows a generally slow and steady decline since peaking in 2010. 

This is just one of many indicators. Please show us data to contrary please. 

[GradSchoolGradd]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:55 PM, GradSchoolGrad said:

Lets talk about a quick Google search.

https://foreignassistance.gov/aid-trends

Look at US assistance in 2015 ($54B) vs. 2021 ($35B) all in 2020 dollars. This follows a generally slow and steady decline since peaking in 2010. 

This is just one of many indicators. Please show us data to contrary please. 

Wow - not sure where to start here. First, if you knew anything about "IDEV" aka international development (as you so often claim on this forum - among your vast expertise across multiple disciplines, schools, and other areas, of course.), you would know that it makes no sense to include military pending (which is 2/3 of so-called foreign assistance). Second, you cherry picked a couple of random years to prove your point (a strategy that is very in vogue these days apparently). Third, looking at net ODA, the US has actually increased spending on development assistance (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/DC.ODA.TOTL.CD?locations=US). Fourth, international development isn't just concessional financing. In recent years, private flows of capital have financed a growing portion of development. Fifth, I actually work in the sector, and my company ~8000 strong, is struggling to hire because of the tight job market, including at the entry level. 

[GradSchoolGrad]

7 hours ago, GradSchoolGradd said:

Wow - not sure where to start here. First, if you knew anything about "IDEV" aka international development (as you so often claim on this forum - among your vast expertise across multiple disciplines, schools, and other areas, of course.), you would know that it makes no sense to include military pending (which is 2/3 of so-called foreign assistance). Second, you cherry picked a couple of random years to prove your point (a strategy that is very in vogue these days apparently). Third, looking at net ODA, the US has actually increased spending on development assistance (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/DC.ODA.TOTL.CD?locations=US). Fourth, international development isn't just concessional financing. In recent years, private flows of capital have financed a growing portion of development. Fifth, I actually work in the sector, and my company ~8000 strong, is struggling to hire because of the tight job market, including at the entry level. 

1. Let's talk about what really matters here. IDEV jobs desirable and fitting for IDEV policy grad students.

Yes, you can have a post-grad school IDEV labor shortage (as you see in your workplace) and decrease in demand for IDEV jobs at the same time.

Bottom line is that there is extreme leakage going on among graduate students going to policy/IR schools for IDEV to actually pursue a career in IDEV. IDEV students are simply graduating and not entering IDEV or quickly departing IDEV after short stints post graduate. I view this as consequential to how clear and visible IDEV (just to be more clear, things involving program evaluation and design) career pathways (e.g., USAID, NGO/non-profit) has shrank in demand. People self-select out once they realize how the IDEV job options and experience doesn't meet their hopes and dreams.

I want to highlight that there is definitive big group of IDEV related jobs I am not connecting with here, and those involve PhD level economic research, business development, and capital management roles that I done by economists and investors. Not saying no one from MPA/MPP/IR has done those roles, as even I know some that pivoted towards there, but it isn't a natural fit per se. However, even towards those, people are self selecting themselves out when it is IDEV related as there are more lucrative options (personally, financially, and some would say impact wise - I know because I hired former IDEV talent a lot). 

2. To quibble:

The emphasis here was not about total money flowing to developing countries, but IDEV specific jobs befitting MPA/MPP/IR graduates.
a. By US, I mean US government funded. It's between government, IGO, and non-profit funded for which by and large you have development primarily as a public good and/or with governmental objectives in mind, and more applicable to MPA/MPP/IR grads. 

b. The world bank data is proxy of grants and loans and it is indistinguishable which one changes hands with private sector and someone who may need more IDEV experience. Also, it doesn't cover 2021 - capturing the effects of COVID. 

c. It would also be unfair to call all private flows of capital to a developing nation "development". That is tied to how much money is circulating globally. Granted some private flows of capital can be deemed as "IDEV", I'm not here for a taxonomy debate

[giraff]

On 10/25/2022 at 10:15 PM, Westpolicy said:

if you have good grades from your Econ undergrad that will be a big + for  quant heavy programs. Add in a good GRE and relevant work experience ++.  

I understand you’re worried about your work experience.  I might be wrong but based on your writing you have worked about 4 years (2 years policy position for mining and 1 year 8 months for IGO).  Is this correct? What are you doing now?  Volunteering is also good.  Most people understand grants end so only having 1 year 8 months is understandable if explained.  What were your accomplishments in this time? Why did it end after 1 year 8 months (lack of funding, project finished)?  You don’t need to answer me just something for you to think about.  

You don’t necessarily need a fancy name brand, it is more about the professional experience and showing you can do the quant work.

It is also ok to speak to the difficulty in obtaining IdEV roles in your country and how you would like X degree and experience from X school (internships, network, working with X professor) in order to pivot into those types of roles in your home country.  
GL.

 

My grades from econ will look dysmal to a US perspective. My college distributed terrible grades like candy, no one from my cohort graduated with more than 3.4 GPA as I'm aware of... But since I worked as RA at the IGO for an applied microeconomics research, plus was a TA in statistics, I hope to explain my grades were more an issue of my grading system being different.

Speaking about the RA at the IGO, the short answer is: the project ended, and with it, so the budget for renewing my contract. The long answer is that I was helping in multiple projects from my PI, but 70% of my time I was allocated in a single research - renewing my contract for an extra 8 months was a budget miracle. I've learned researchers have to juggle really tight budgets every year to allocate shrewdly their resources in external contractors and pray that by the next year budget plan will get better (usually, it doesn't). Right now I've been given a verbal offer for a senior analyst position to structure some geo data plan for an international development non-profit in LatAm. Hoping it pans out.

Thanks a lot about your suggestions! Definitely will put them in my essays/SoP.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by giraff