Low AW for phd in Eng Lit?

[tildeath1luv]

Hi all,

I'm an international student considering applying to a phd program in Eng literature for fall 2011.

I just took the general GRE last month and got V690 and Q720.

The problem is that my AW is only 4.0.

I'm worried that it will seriously hurt my application since I'm applying for a phd program in English Literature.

It's probably too late to retake the general GRE and I have the subject GRE coming up next month.

Should I focus on writing samples and SOP and continue with the scores that I have now or delay my applications

and shoot for next year? (after retaking the general GRE later on)

Thanks

[diehtc0ke]

On 10/20/2010 at 11:42 AM, tildeath1luv said:

Hi all,

I'm an international student considering applying to a phd program in Eng literature for fall 2011.

I just took the general GRE last month and got V690 and Q720.

The problem is that my AW is only 4.0.

I'm worried that it will seriously hurt my application since I'm applying for a phd program in English Literature.

It's probably too late to retake the general GRE and I have the subject GRE coming up next month.

Should I focus on writing samples and SOP and continue with the scores that I have now or delay my applications

and shoot for next year? (after retaking the general GRE later on)

Thanks

You don't have to delay anything based on your AW score--adcoms realize that section is a joke. No one bases your writing ability on that score especially because you'll be sending in a writing sample. Even if you had the time I would have advised you not to bother retaking.

Edited October 20, 2010 by diehtc0ke

[lifealive]

Yeah, ditto that. Most adcoms realize that the AW portion is graded by people who barely bother to read the essays in the first place. The other scores look fine for any program.

[strokeofmidnight]

Echoing the chorus. (It's actually kinda eerie that dietc0ke says that ad-comms view them as a "joke"--I was going to use that exact same phrase). I absolutely would NOT recommend re-taking the GRE's. However, I do want to address a tiny misconception: "It's probably too late to retake the general GRE."

It isn't. GRE scores are not that important. With most programs, it won't matter at all if your official scores do not arrive by the deadline, as long as you have unofficial scores to enter in. So technically, you can take your GRE the day your application is due and simply put down your unofficial score from the final page. I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a possibly for anyone who's really down to the wire.

[augustquail]

Just as a warning, some of the schools I'm applying to say that you have to explain 'low' scores..one program says below a 600 in the Verbal is considered 'low' (not a problem for you) or below a '5' on the writing.

I don't think the AWA should keep you out if your writing sample is good...obviously that's a better indication of what kind of writer/thinker you are. Just be sure to check if they want you to explain low scores or not on your SOP.

Also--is English your first language? If it isn't, I would definately not worry about the 4.

[augustquail]

Just as a warning, some of the schools I'm applying to say that you have to explain 'low' scores..one program says below a 600 in the Verbal is considered 'low' (not a problem for you) or below a '5' on the writing.

I don't think the AWA should keep you out if your writing sample is good...obviously that's a better indication of what kind of writer/thinker you are. Just be sure to check if they want you to explain low scores or not on your SOP.

Also--is English your first language? If it isn't, I would definately not worry about the 4.

[diehtc0ke]

Echoing the chorus. (It's actually kinda eerie that dietc0ke says that ad-comms view them as a "joke"--I was going to use that exact same phrase). I absolutely would NOT recommend re-taking the GRE's. However, I do want to address a tiny misconception: "It's probably too late to retake the general GRE."

It isn't. GRE scores are not that important. With most programs, it won't matter at all if your official scores do not arrive by the deadline, as long as you have unofficial scores to enter in. So technically, you can take your GRE the day your application is due and simply put down your unofficial score from the final page. I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a possibly for anyone who's really down to the wire.

Yeah. Plus, (and I feel like I've said this before somewhere) I was accepted to a top 20 school without them having even seen my GRE scores. About two weeks after I got my official acceptance the DGS e-mailed me asking if I had ever sent them and only needed them for the Graduate School's records.

Edited October 22, 2010 by diehtc0ke

[Medievalmaniac]

You don't have to delay anything based on your AW score--adcoms realize that section is a joke. No one bases your writing ability on that score especially because you'll be sending in a writing sample. Even if you had the time I would have advised you not to bother retaking.

I take a bit of offense to this statement, that "adcomms realize the AW section is a joke." That might be because I earned a perfect score on the AW section and only 89th percentile on the verbal portion...does that mean that adcomms will view my GRE scores as a joke and question my writing ability? Shall I be more scrutinized as a candidate, deemed suspect because I scored highly on the joke section of the exam? (Is there only one joke section of the GRE...? I was under the assumption the whole thing was suspect, myself... ) That said, whether we like it or not, and whether they explicitly state it or not, the GRE for better or worse does count in our evaluation as candidates, to a greater or lesser degree.

Going into English, I would think they would expect decent writing scores as well as verbal ones. Have you spoken to adcomms that told you they don't think the writing score is important?

That said, I think a 4 is a respectable score on the writing section, and if everything else on the GRE was strong, there's no point in retaking it in hopes of a higher essay score. Focus on your writing sample.

[diehtc0ke]

I take a bit of offense to this statement, that "adcomms realize the AW section is a joke." That might be because I earned a perfect score on the AW section and only 89th percentile on the verbal portion...does that mean that adcomms will view my GRE scores as a joke and question my writing ability? Shall I be more scrutinized as a candidate, deemed suspect because I scored highly on the joke section of the exam? (Is there only one joke section of the GRE...? I was under the assumption the whole thing was suspect, myself... ) That said, whether we like it or not, and whether they explicitly state it or not, the GRE for better or worse does count in our evaluation as candidates, to a greater or lesser degree.

Going into English, I would think they would expect decent writing scores as well as verbal ones. Have you spoken to adcomms that told you they don't think the writing score is important?

That said, I think a 4 is a respectable score on the writing section, and if everything else on the GRE was strong, there's no point in retaking it in hopes of a higher essay score. Focus on your writing sample.

? No, that's not what I meant. The question was whether a low writing score on the GRE would negatively effect an applicant's chances and I responded that the section is a joke not because no one bothers looking at it (though, as I said, I was accepted to a top school without the adcom having even seen my scores) but because the writing sample by and large eclipses the AW score as a tool for judging an applicant's writing ability. In this specific case (and I really only wrote that post as a response to this specific case), the writing score isn't low enough to pose as a red flag, especially if the sample is spectacular. I probably should have been a little more descriptive in my position but I was on my iPhone and suddenly remembered that I got a 4 on that section as well. I think. It might have been a 4.5 but it was definitely nothing more than that and maybe it's for this reason that I came off seeming more authoritative on the subject than I am. I had a similar score on that section and was fairly successful in applying last year. I didn't want the OP to think for another minute that he should completely give up on the application process because of a middling score on one of the least significant parts of the application (that is, the writing section and not necessarily the GRE as a whole). Though, I would say the exact same thing if someone came on here asking whether a high score on the writing section would help offset a mediocre writing sample because it wouldn't.

[strokeofmidnight]

I take a bit of offense to this statement, that "adcomms realize the AW section is a joke." That might be because I earned a perfect score on the AW section and only 89th percentile on the verbal portion...does that mean that adcomms will view my GRE scores as a joke and question my writing ability? Shall I be more scrutinized as a candidate, deemed suspect because I scored highly on the joke section of the exam? (Is there only one joke section of the GRE...? I was under the assumption the whole thing was suspect, myself... ) That said, whether we like it or not, and whether they explicitly state it or not, the GRE for better or worse does count in our evaluation as candidates, to a greater or lesser degree.

Going into English, I would think they would expect decent writing scores as well as verbal ones. Have you spoken to adcomms that told you they don't think the writing score is important?

That said, I think a 4 is a respectable score on the writing section, and if everything else on the GRE was strong, there's no point in retaking it in hopes of a higher essay score. Focus on your writing sample.

I don't know what to make of this. For what it's worth, I also scored a 6 on the AW. I was able to do so NOT because I'm a good scholarly writer (though I hope I am), but because after teaching the GRE for years, I do know how to write for it. (I also grade the AW as a practice exam for a major testprep company, supposedly trained to the same standards as the actual GRE graders). The sort of writing skills needed to score well on the AP is precisely NOT the writing skills needed for English academia. Whenever I teach the AW portion in my classes, I warn my students (particularly my humanities students) that they if they write like this in my classroom, I'll fail them. I'm only half-joking...the sort of writing skills that I'm forced to teach for the AW are precisely the things that work to UNteach my undergrads. It's a blatantly obvious writing style that is valuable for some fields, but far too bunt a tool for English. The AW IS taken seriously by some fields. (Some of my nursing students take the GRE ONLY for the AW score), but not for our field.

This isn't to say (I hope!) that we're all one-trick ponies. I can write in a scholarly manner for my field, but in an entirely different manner on, say, my journal. It IS to say that because the AW doesn't accurately reflect our writing abilities for our field, and the ad-comms know this.

And yes, actually, I have spoken to the ad-comms. I asked two professors (former advisers) about a friend's "5." One of them burst out laughing and said that she doesn't even remember looking at AW scores while on the committee. The other one waved his hand and said that it doesn't matter, and he never quite understood the AW scoring criteria to begin with.

[Medievalmaniac]

? No, that's not what I meant. The question was whether a low writing score on the GRE would negatively effect an applicant's chances and I responded that the section is a joke not because no one bothers looking at it (though, as I said, I was accepted to a top school without the adcom having even seen my scores) but because the writing sample by and large eclipses the AW score as a tool for judging an applicant's writing ability. In this specific case (and I really only wrote that post as a response to this specific case), the writing score isn't low enough to pose as a red flag, especially if the sample is spectacular. I probably should have been a little more descriptive in my position but I was on my iPhone and suddenly remembered that I got a 4 on that section as well. I think. It might have been a 4.5 but it was definitely nothing more than that and maybe it's for this reason that I came off seeming more authoritative on the subject than I am. I had a similar score on that section and was fairly successful in applying last year. I didn't want the OP to think for another minute that he should completely give up on the application process because of a middling score on one of the least significant parts of the application (that is, the writing section and not necessarily the GRE as a whole). Though, I would say the exact same thing if someone came on here asking whether a high score on the writing section would help offset a mediocre writing sample because it wouldn't.

That's fair, and makes more sense, thank you for the clarification (although, in my defense, my post was really just an attempt at gallows humor, as it were. We are all in application hell, after all...

[augustquail]

I take a bit of offense to this statement, that "adcomms realize the AW section is a joke." That might be because I earned a perfect score on the AW section and only 89th percentile on the verbal portion...does that mean that adcomms will view my GRE scores as a joke and question my writing ability? Shall I be more scrutinized as a candidate, deemed suspect because I scored highly on the joke section of the exam? (Is there only one joke section of the GRE...? I was under the assumption the whole thing was suspect, myself... ) That said, whether we like it or not, and whether they explicitly state it or not, the GRE for better or worse does count in our evaluation as candidates, to a greater or lesser degree.

Going into English, I would think they would expect decent writing scores as well as verbal ones. Have you spoken to adcomms that told you they don't think the writing score is important?

That said, I think a 4 is a respectable score on the writing section, and if everything else on the GRE was strong, there's no point in retaking it in hopes of a higher essay score. Focus on your writing sample.

Though I agree with everyone that the writing sample eclipses the AWA score, I do sympathize with you medievalmaniac. I scored in the 95th percentile for verbal and got a 6 on the writing. I know that the AWA writing is vastly different from the writing we'll be asked to do in grad school. That being said, the AWA expects less from you; it's kind of like 'can you write a freshman comp paper? can you answer the question? can you pick apart this boring marketing summary and see the underlying assumptions? etc. Maybe this sounds awful, but I don't understand how someone can score under a 5 if they're a smart writer, (unless they're sick or something or just experienced some tragedy). What they ask you to do maybe be "a joke" compared to scholarly writing, but it does ask you to think on your feet and have some ideas of your own, (i.e. you don't have time to read articles and create a perspective based on other people's thoughts or criticisms...). I mean, a lot of grad school is being able to produce in a short period of time and work under pressure.

[diehtc0ke]

Though I agree with everyone that the writing sample eclipses the AWA score, I do sympathize with you medievalmaniac. I scored in the 95th percentile for verbal and got a 6 on the writing. I know that the AWA writing is vastly different from the writing we'll be asked to do in grad school. That being said, the AWA expects less from you; it's kind of like 'can you write a freshman comp paper? can you answer the question? can you pick apart this boring marketing summary and see the underlying assumptions? etc. Maybe this sounds awful, but I don't understand how someone can score under a 5 if they're a smart writer, (unless they're sick or something or just experienced some tragedy). What they ask you to do maybe be "a joke" compared to scholarly writing, but it does ask you to think on your feet and have some ideas of your own, (i.e. you don't have time to read articles and create a perspective based on other people's thoughts or criticisms...). I mean, a lot of grad school is being able to produce in a short period of time and work under pressure.

Well now I'm offended (kidding!). In my defense, I figured the section would be easy and so I never looked up what they were looking for in an essay (which means not seeing what a "6" essay looked like) nor did I even look up the instructions for the section before the day of the test so I ended up having to read those while I was taking it, meaning I had even less time. I suppose my natural writing style warranted demerits.<br><br>edited because I think strokeofmidnight said what I wanted to say better than I did...<br>

Edited October 25, 2010 by diehtc0ke

[strokeofmidnight]

Maybe this sounds awful, but I don't understand how someone can score under a 5 if they're a smart writer, (unless they're sick or something or just experienced some tragedy). What they ask you to do maybe be "a joke" compared to scholarly writing, but it does ask you to think on your feet and have some ideas of your own, (i.e. you don't have time to read articles and create a perspective based on other people's thoughts or criticisms...). I mean, a lot of grad school is being able to produce in a short period of time and work under pressure.

I know of plenty of "smart writers" who scored under a 5. Much of this has to do with the way grading is done. They're looking for a certain "clear" (read, heavy-handed and blunt) writing style that we--as English academics--are trained to use far more subtly. Ambiguity (even teased out) is not a virtue. They're looking for you to take sides, to make very clear-cut analysis on issues that (even as presented) that are often not that clear-cut. They want heavy transitions (often looking for transitional words, rather than a logically structured argument that can function without an in-order-face work like "Secondly..."). You will be docked for NOT doing this, even if you otherwise handle the assignment correctly.

Yeah. Freshman writing style.

[Medievalmaniac]

I know of plenty of "smart writers" who scored under a 5. Much of this has to do with the way grading is done. They're looking for a certain "clear" (read, heavy-handed and blunt) writing style that we--as English academics--are trained to use far more subtly. Ambiguity (even teased out) is not a virtue. They're looking for you to take sides, to make very clear-cut analysis on issues that (even as presented) that are often not that clear-cut. They want heavy transitions (often looking for transitional words, rather than a logically structured argument that can function without an in-order-face work like "Secondly..."). You will be docked for NOT doing this, even if you otherwise handle the assignment correctly.

Yeah. Freshman writing style.

I didn't read over instructions for the writing section, or look at sample responses, prior to the test. I just figured it would be "here's a prompt, write an essay". And I didn't use an obvious, five-paragraph essay format, or specifically "follow the rules" - I just had fun shredding the poorly-written article they asked me to shred. The free-response question was something about appearances and stereotypes. I wrote that the way people dress for 8:00 a.m. college classes in France, Japan and America is generally a good indicator that in many ways, the stereotypes for each country are alive and well and manifested in freshman clothing choices, backing it up with a discussion of the perceived American love of ease, convenience and trend-following as evidenced in people's wearing the logo-laden, brand name pajamas they wore to bed the night before to class, the idea that the French love tradition and culture mixed with personal statements as evidenced in the Gallic tendency to wear solid basics and dress them up with colorful accessories, and the stereotype that the Japanese are perfectionists who love technology and innovation evidenced in their wearing of suits/ business attire and carrying of the latest technological devices, etc. etc. It wasn't a graduate term paper, by any means, but I thought it was an interesting angle on the question. Maybe they responded to it as being original?

[augustquail]

I didn't read over instructions for the writing section, or look at sample responses, prior to the test. I just figured it would be "here's a prompt, write an essay". And I didn't use an obvious, five-paragraph essay format, or specifically "follow the rules" - I just had fun shredding the poorly-written article they asked me to shred. The free-response question was something about appearances and stereotypes. I wrote that the way people dress for 8:00 a.m. college classes in France, Japan and America is generally a good indicator that in many ways, the stereotypes for each country are alive and well and manifested in freshman clothing choices, backing it up with a discussion of the perceived American love of ease, convenience and trend-following as evidenced in people's wearing the logo-laden, brand name pajamas they wore to bed the night before to class, the idea that the French love tradition and culture mixed with personal statements as evidenced in the Gallic tendency to wear solid basics and dress them up with colorful accessories, and the stereotype that the Japanese are perfectionists who love technology and innovation evidenced in their wearing of suits/ business attire and carrying of the latest technological devices, etc. etc. It wasn't a graduate term paper, by any means, but I thought it was an interesting angle on the question. Maybe they responded to it as being original?

The AWA was the only section I didn't study for, too. And though I definately had an introduction and a conclusion, I didn't follow the 5 paragraph essay format either. It was acutally quite long. My question was kind of an "art vs. science question" and I talked about Leonardo Divinci, the Paris Museum of Modern Art, and the invention of the camera...I made some insane claims about cameras in general. I stopped myself before I brought in Deleuze, though haha. I will say the argument essay was fun for me too...it's a puzzle.

I don't think someone gave me a 6 because it was a boring, "perfect mold" essay, either. In fact, I think someone would really need to break out of the mold to impress those graders, who probably see the 5 paragraph essay a lot more than they'd like to...

[Caddy+Quentin4ever]

I would just like to point out something that no one has mentioned. The "people" reading your GRE AW essay are actually a person and an "e-rater®," i.e. a computer. From the ETS website:

• The essay score is assigned by a trained reader, using a 6-point holistic scale. The essay response is then reviewed by e-rater®, a computerized program developed by ETS, which is being used to monitor the human reader.
• If the e-rater evaluation and the human score agree, the human score is used as the final score. If they disagree by a certain amount, a second human score is obtained, and the final score is the average of the two human scores.
  
  http://www.ets.org/gre/institutions/scores/how/

This is all to say that one person glances at your essay, then a computer glances at your essay to confirm the score. As an instructor who has had to grade mountains of freshman comp essays for department-wide semester assessments, I can tell you that the "6-point holistic scale" is basically a snap judgment system for categorizing the masses. You do not "read" essays, you look at them, keeping an eye out for key requirements which include (in this order) 1.) Word count, 2.) Organization, and 3.) Coherency (sentence structures that are complex but not too complex are best). If the human reader is using a programmed approach to scoring your essay, you can bet the e-rater® isn't mulling over your thoughts with a glass of merlot.

I paid for that silly ETS ScoreItNow! http://www.ets.org/gre/general/prepare/scoreitnow online writing practice service (which is graded only by an e-rater®-- no homo sapiens involved) and it did help me in that that it drilled into my head the fact that in evaluating my essay, no one would be agonizing over my words, so why should I? In a nutshell, the higher the word count, the higher the score. A few other things, like organization and sentence structure, can hurt or help you, but not as much as you’d think. As for creativity, razor-sharp wit, and scholarly incisiveness, they’ll get about as much appreciation as a great novel at a NASCAR rally. I know it’s not a pleasant reality, but there you have it.

[foppery]

<br style="text-shadow: none;">I didn't read over instructions for the writing section, or look at sample responses, prior to the test. I just figured it would be "here's a prompt, write an essay". And I didn't use an obvious, five-paragraph essay format, or specifically "follow the rules" - I just had fun shredding the poorly-written article they asked me to shred. The free-response question was something about appearances and stereotypes. I wrote that the way people dress for 8:00 a.m. college classes in France, Japan and America is generally a good indicator that in many ways, the stereotypes for each country are alive and well and manifested in freshman clothing choices, backing it up with a discussion of the perceived American love of ease, convenience and trend-following as evidenced in people's wearing the logo-laden, brand name pajamas they wore to bed the night before to class, the idea that the French love tradition and culture mixed with personal statements as evidenced in the Gallic tendency to wear solid basics and dress them up with colorful accessories, and the stereotype that the Japanese are perfectionists who love technology and innovation evidenced in their wearing of suits/ business attire and carrying of the latest technological devices, etc. etc. It wasn't a graduate term paper, by any means, but I thought it was an interesting angle on the question. Maybe they responded to it as being original?<br style="text-shadow: none;">

<br style="text-shadow: none;"><br style="text-shadow: none;">I can tell you, with no shame at all, that I got a 6 for two formulaic, uninspired essays that followed the format set out in my Princeton Review book. I don't even remember what my prompts were (though I do remember being so anxious that I nearly ran out of the testing center), but I am living, breathing evidence that ETS isn't looking for originality. Since Medievalmaniac and I got the same score for what seem to have been very different essay styles, I can only imagine that the scoring is very arbitrary, and based perhaps on length and coherence more than ideas.

<br style="text-shadow: none;">