LOR

[celph]

Hi

So I'm applying to various universities. I have LORs. They seem good. But how good are they? I'm worried that some professors might write good stuff about their students either way. Like, I got to read one of my LORs and it was like "He's impressed me, he's very knowledgeable, he did great in class, received a perfect score which almost never happens, he's great to work with, he'll adapt to your school quickly and he's fun to have around", which are all great things to say about somebody, but I'm wondering if maybe they all sound a bit too... typical..? Like, yeah, heard that shit a thousand times about all kinds of students. So what you reckon? Is a letter such as the one i Described above useless?

[kaykaykay]

The more important questions are: How long was the letter? How personal was it (personal details,like I met this student ... blablabla) ? Who wrote it?

I had to read through a bunch of LORs for some funding distribution (I was the student rep) and it was very easy to spot the real thing.

[Strangefox]

The more important questions are: How long was the letter? How personal was it (personal details,like I met this student ... blablabla) ? Who wrote it?

I had to read through a bunch of LORs for some funding distribution (I was the student rep) and it was very easy to spot the real thing.

So good letters are long and personal?

[crayolacat]

I have read that because they are all inflated, favorable comparisons (especially statistics) against other students are especially meaningful. So the "that almost never happens" is supposedly code for "I really mean it. for this one"

[eklavya]

So good letters are long and personal?

Exactly my thought/disagreement. While, according to my belief, a letter should be long enough so that the adcomms know that the writer was enthusiastic about writing the letter; and personal stuff is important and therefore should be mentioned, both aren't the only things that make the letters good. Remember that a long and personal letter can swing either way - good or bad. The holy grail of a good letter is that it should leave positive mark on the adcomms and your POI. It should outline what your strengths are (academia-wise, research-wise, and leadership-wise), and not how cheerful, happy and fun you are... although mentioning these latter attributes shouldn't cause any harm either.

[Strangefox]

It should outline what your strengths are (academia-wise, research-wise, and leadership-wise)

However some people on this forum seem to think that simply outlining strengths is not enough. That is what makes me confused! Like, there must be a very very special way to write these letters that can really impress adcomms. And other ways are trite and won't have positive influence on them. Like the OP said: "<...> which are all great things to say about somebody, but I'm wondering if maybe they all sound a bit too... typical..? Like, yeah, heard that shit a thousand times about all kinds of students." I mean, what else can be said there, in what way can it be said to make an impact???

[Medievalmaniac]

However some people on this forum seem to think that simply outlining strengths is not enough. That is what makes me confused! Like, there must be a very very special way to write these letters that can really impress adcomms. And other ways are trite and won't have positive influence on them. Like the OP said: "<...> which are all great things to say about somebody, but I'm wondering if maybe they all sound a bit too... typical..? Like, yeah, heard that shit a thousand times about all kinds of students." I mean, what else can be said there, in what way can it be said to make an impact???

While I do not write recommendations for college students applying to graduate programs, I do regularly write recommendations for seniors applying to college, and many of my students have been told that their letter of recommendation either got them into a program, or that they were funded/offered scholarships based on the recommendation - so I guess my recs are what admissions folks look for. I'm happy to share with you what I do on them, if that helps.

First, my letters range from 3/4- 1.5 pages in length, and I point-blank refuse to write a recommendation for a student I am not genuinely interested in, invested in, or excited about. Not fair to the student, not fair to me, makes my recommendations worth less, and could negatively impact later students using me as a recommender. Smaller colleges, over time, build relationships with teachers and professors who regularly recommend students - or at least, they have so done with me. I teach at a private boarding school, and I have personal contacts at several small schools. In two cases specifically, the admissions director has told me "If I see your school's name on the application, I check to see if you wrote the rec; if you wrote the rec, I have no problem recommending the student for admission because your kids always seem to do well." In other words, there are SOME cases in which a particular teacher or professor writing the rec actually can put a kid across the line, especially in a borderline case (I have a student right now who is applying to five-year pre-med programs with a 3.1 GPA and a 1980 SAT. Technically, these programs should not be looking at him. But I KNOW this kid, and I can speak to the GPA (he tries to do so much more than the required reading and research that he gets bogged down) and that SAT (he went into it with a fever and refused to miss and reschedule) as few others can, because we are a small school. I wrote, in his letter, about his academic work, his work ethic, his ability to remain calm in any situation, leadership positions, and so forth, and then at the end I wrote:

"[...] is focused on developing himself as the best version of a fully-actualized individual he can become. His quietly passionate nature plays into everything he does. He is enthusiastic without being zealous, interested without being obsessive, and vitally present in his day to day living, rather than “going through the motions, waiting for life to start”. I wish I could teach his character and approach to life to all of my other students. He actualizes what I feel constitutes the ideal American adolescent in effortless, humble, and inspiring fashion.

[...] has my full endorsement as he makes application to university at this time; I recommend him absolutely without reservation, and further recommend without reservation his nomination for any award available to incoming freshmen involving character, academics, or a combination of both. If I had to name three students as being the very best students I have taught in a thirteen-year career, he would be one of them."

And, I meant that. This is a truly extraordinary young man, and while I have spent much time writing recommendations, I have never spent quite as long making sure one said what I wanted it to say as I spent on that one. It paid off for him. Our admissions counselor said that the director of admissions to one of these 5 year programs told her point-blank: "Ordinarily, we would not even consider a student with a GPA lower than 3.5 for this program, but based on that letter, we would like to conduct an interview of this student."

I am, of course, delighted, and desperately hoping he gets in; but even if he doesn't, I do know what I wrote made the difference in his chances that he needed; the rest is up to him. While I very much doubt many of our grad school recs are along these lines, hopefully they at least tell a story or give a strong idea of who we are in the eyes of our teachers; in my opinion, a letter of recommendation that is personally invested in a student does matter. Then again, I got into a very strong undergraduate program because a 4-star general in the Army who was an alum of the program and knew my Dad wrote "I am an alumni of the University (Class of '48) and I fully endorse this young woman's application. Sincerely yours, XYZ, 4-Star General, United States Army, Fort Sheridan, Il., December 1, XXXX." So - as with everything else, who knows? But it sounds to me like your professor's letter was complimentary, and you probably have a good portfolio for an adcomm to review.

[celph]

Thank you all for your replies. The stuff you wrote for your student, Medievalmaniac, were impressive, were the kind of things I was wishing my professor had written for me. Obviously I may not deserve such high praise. But I think I do, so...

My one professor wrote that I match or exceed in potential all the students he's had in his long career. So that was good. But some of my letters just seemed "typical", I don't know. I'm just not sure "He's an excellent student" is enough when I wanna get in an ivy league. Of course LOR's are not everything etc etc, but I want every part of my application to be strong. Really strong. And my SOP is pretty damn strong. So is my GRE (740 verbal and English isn't my native language). And I like to think my writing sample is strong, it's very ambitious and my approach is a double-edged sword, they'll either love it or hate it. What I'm trying to say is I'm worried about my LORs, and I'm hoping that "he's a true exception" and stuff like that don't sound like cheesy lines everybody uses in their LORs, whether the person they're talking about is a true exception or not.

Anyhow... Good luck to everybody.

[Strangefox]

So is my GRE (740 verbal and English isn't my native language).

Wow, that's impressive!

[celph]

Thank you, Strangefox. Sorry I covertly bragged about it, but these times are difficult

I'm currently worried about one of my LOR writers, in fact the most important one. I visited his office today and he said "I was just writing your LOR!". I said OK. He still hasn't submitted it. Why can't you just complete the form and put me out of my misery? Why postpone it until the last minute?

ARGH.

[Strangefox]

He still hasn't submitted it. Why can't you just complete the form and put me out of my misery? Why postpone it until the last minute?

ARGH.

Unfortunately some professors seem to have forgotten about the times when they themselves were humble applicants

[kaykaykay]

I found that good letters were on the long side and they were personal, you could really feel that the professor took the time to write the letter and really endorses the person. I would doubt that any professor would spend his valuable time to write a long personal and meaningless/ bad letter. I do not mean personal in the sense that the prof was talking about non research related issues only, but you could feel that they actually have a clue of the student and his/her work. Some of the LORs were shorter and still to the point (this research is vital for the future of humanity) mostly from the hard sciences, but some had only cliches. I was giving out points with deans and there was a general consensus about the rank of applications. Sometimes it was really the LOR which changed the game. So I think it can be actually a good thing if your prof takes some time to really write a good and detailed letter!

Edited December 14, 2010 by kalapocska