Composition and Rhetoric -- Really a Growing Field?

[craftstudying]

I am a newbie here having read, rather extensively, every conceivable thread about Composition and Rhetoric – a field that I believe I am passionate about (although, from what I have read, the definition of “passion” is a different game in grad school than it is in undergraduate school). I am getting a lot of mixed signals, specifically that the field of humanities is a dead zone of jobs, but the specific discipline of Composition and Rhetoric is growing. For the latter, I feel that I am being overly optimistic about going into Comp/Rhet since it is a growing job market – in a tiny, shrinking one (Humanities/English). I am wondering if I should go and get my Ph.D – a thought that has been burning in mind these past few years – or if I should realistically just give up the dream.

About myself: I am two years out of undergraduate school, a graduate of a top university with decent grades (3.89 – I am the child of millennial inflation…), wrote an English Honors thesis (a creative writing piece that doubled as a “craft study”), won a few departmental awards here and there (but nothing too big) and am really good friends with the Director of Writing, the Director of the Writing Center, and the Department Director (let’s just say I’ve been in all of their cars and have had conversations on speed dating, life, etc. – things that I fondly look back on). It had a wonderful time in my English department and think of it often.

More specifically, during undergrad, I fell in love with tutoring in our Writing Center, with all the readings we had in my writing theory class, and am currently a College Counselor working with low-income, first generation students. I love my job, but I am finding that my specific interest is watching their writing develop from thought to final product – and all the cultural/language barriers that are entailed in academic writing, ESL teaching, critical though development, etc. In short (well, not short, I guess): I want to direct a Writing Center and I want to teach Composition and Rhetoric – along with design programming that would assist students, regardless of background to develop their thoughts, critical thinking skills, and analytical ability, coalescing all of it into the academic writing they are expected to produce. I also want to research this extensively since I come from the same background as many of my students – which is why I opt for academia.

I’m not sure if I am trying to relive my glory days (well, you know – as glorious as undergraduate academia can be, which is not quite glorious) or if what I am choosing to go into is generic, not conducive to any financial livelihood, and just career suicide. I love all that I wrote in the above, but I also want to be able to own property some day, take care of my parents at some point, and start a family.

At this point, what I have written is where my idealistic heart is – but my realistic mind is also telling me to get an MPA/MPP or a non-profit focused MBA to perhaps run a non-profit that may do all of the above. But, in the long run, I do see myself researching, enjoying administrative work at a university level, and running a Writing Center. I am just not sure what is viable.

My top choice is the University of Texas program (I am from Texas but have spent the last 6 years away from the state) – and to go somewhere where I am fully funded – I am most definitely in undergraduate debt, which already terrifies me.

Any advice welcome – my apologies for being so wordy!

Edited January 5, 2011 by craftstudying

[anonacademic]

Hi there

I'm no expert in comp/rhet, but I do have a few things to chip in. First, I would recommend that you check out the Chronicle of Higher Education. You can read some articles for free, do job searches (which will help you see how many comp/rhet or other English jobs there are), and read the fora. (I might counsel you against posting, though; they can be vicious!) There's a lot of good information on there, and they discuss comp/rhet vs. English frequently.

Second, I would not ever go to graduate school in the humanities without full funding. Don't do it. Funding is not part of the dream - it's a necessity.

Third, keep in mind how long it will take to get your PhD. I assume it's as long as an English PhD (I think the average PhD takes 9 years to complete, although we like to say it'll take 6-7 years). Then you may have a few appointments that don't offer job security - adjuncting, VAPships, etc. It could be a long time before you are able to realize your dream of a family, house, and normal lifestyle. (Perhaps my least favorite aspect of this process - besides the lack of job prospects.)

It sounds like you're passionate, and well-prepared. It'll be a difficult decision, and I'd explore the other options you list in addition. You might want to get a (funded!) MA first, which may qualify you for a Writing Director position.

Good luck

[HappyCat]

I am a newbie here having read, rather extensively, every conceivable thread about Composition and Rhetoric – a field that I believe I am passionate about (although, from what I have read, the definition of “passion” is a different game in grad school than it is in undergraduate school). I am getting a lot of mixed signals, specifically that the field of humanities is a dead zone of jobs, but the specific discipline of Composition and Rhetoric is growing. For the latter, I feel that I am being overly optimistic about going into Comp/Rhet since it is a growing job market – in a tiny, shrinking one (Humanities/English). I am wondering if I should go and get my Ph.D – a thought that has been burning in mind these past few years – or if I should realistically just give up the dream.

About myself: I am two years out of undergraduate school, a graduate of a top university with decent grades (3.89 – I am the child of millennial inflation…), wrote an English Honors thesis (a creative writing piece that doubled as a “craft study”), won a few departmental awards here and there (but nothing too big) and am really good friends with the Director of Writing, the Director of the Writing Center, and the Department Director (let’s just say I’ve been in all of their cars and have had conversations on speed dating, life, etc. – things that I fondly look back on). It had a wonderful time in my English department and think of it often.

More specifically, during undergrad, I fell in love with tutoring in our Writing Center, with all the readings we had in my writing theory class, and am currently a College Counselor working with low-income, first generation students. I love my job, but I am finding that my specific interest is watching their writing develop from thought to final product – and all the cultural/language barriers that are entailed in academic writing, ESL teaching, critical though development, etc. In short (well, not short, I guess): I want to direct a Writing Center and I want to teach Composition and Rhetoric – along with design programming that would assist students, regardless of background to develop their thoughts, critical thinking skills, and analytical ability, coalescing all of it into the academic writing they are expected to produce. I also want to research this extensively since I come from the same background as many of my students – which is why I opt for academia.

I’m not sure if I am trying to relive my glory days (well, you know – as glorious as undergraduate academia can be, which is not quite glorious) or if what I am choosing to go into is generic, not conducive to any financial livelihood, and just career suicide. I love all that I wrote in the above, but I also want to be able to own property some day, take care of my parents at some point, and start a family.

At this point, what I have written is where my idealistic heart is – but my realistic mind is also telling me to get an MPA/MPP or a non-profit focused MBA to perhaps run a non-profit that may do all of the above. But, in the long run, I do see myself researching, enjoying administrative work at a university level, and running a Writing Center. I am just not sure what is viable.

My top choice is the University of Texas program (I am from Texas but have spent the last 6 years away from the state) – and to go somewhere where I am fully funded – I am most definitely in undergraduate debt, which already terrifies me.

Any advice welcome – my apologies for being so wordy!

I was seriously considering Comp/Rhet after being strongly pressured by faculty and administrators. I have a lot of experience in the Comp/Rhet field--I've worked for the Writing Center at my school for years, became a supervisor, helped pilot writing proficiency exams, presented at CCCC a couple times, etc. I love rhetoric, I love teaching composition, but frankly, it's not what I want to STUDY. But that's neither here nor there

That being said, in my research and such, I learned a few things. (1) Look at what department the Comp/Rhet program is housed. A Comp/Rhet program in English will be different than one in communications. (2) Consider the degree type. Some give EdDs, others give PhDs. (3) Ask yourself where you align as a Comp/Rhet student. Just like you focus on different periods in literature, there are different areas to focus in Comp/Rhet. Do you believe in the use of technology for composition? Gaming pedagogies? Or are you more "old-school"? It's important to try to cater your beliefs with the staff. Imagine if you wanted to write your dissertation on how video games affect composition and your department had only really old guys who never played a video game. ;-) (4) When you think of jobs--are you looking more for a faculty or administrative position? Generally, it seems you don't get to work in both equally (from my experience anyway).

As far as the job market, yes, Comp/Rhet seems strong. However, I have been concerned about one thing: Comp/Rhet programs are strong now, but how will they be in the 5-6 yrs before you get out of a PhD program? If everyone thinks it's going to be a great job, there will be far fewer positions.

Hope this helps!

[murkyama]

I am a newbie here having read, rather extensively, every conceivable thread about Composition and Rhetoric – a field that I believe I am passionate about (although, from what I have read, the definition of “passion” is a different game in grad school than it is in undergraduate school). I am getting a lot of mixed signals, specifically that the field of humanities is a dead zone of jobs, but the specific discipline of Composition and Rhetoric is growing. For the latter, I feel that I am being overly optimistic about going into Comp/Rhet since it is a growing job market – in a tiny, shrinking one (Humanities/English). I am wondering if I should go and get my Ph.D – a thought that has been burning in mind these past few years – or if I should realistically just give up the dream.

About myself: I am two years out of undergraduate school, a graduate of a top university with decent grades (3.89 – I am the child of millennial inflation…), wrote an English Honors thesis (a creative writing piece that doubled as a “craft study”), won a few departmental awards here and there (but nothing too big) and am really good friends with the Director of Writing, the Director of the Writing Center, and the Department Director (let’s just say I’ve been in all of their cars and have had conversations on speed dating, life, etc. – things that I fondly look back on). It had a wonderful time in my English department and think of it often.

More specifically, during undergrad, I fell in love with tutoring in our Writing Center, with all the readings we had in my writing theory class, and am currently a College Counselor working with low-income, first generation students. I love my job, but I am finding that my specific interest is watching their writing develop from thought to final product – and all the cultural/language barriers that are entailed in academic writing, ESL teaching, critical though development, etc. In short (well, not short, I guess): I want to direct a Writing Center and I want to teach Composition and Rhetoric – along with design programming that would assist students, regardless of background to develop their thoughts, critical thinking skills, and analytical ability, coalescing all of it into the academic writing they are expected to produce. I also want to research this extensively since I come from the same background as many of my students – which is why I opt for academia.

I’m not sure if I am trying to relive my glory days (well, you know – as glorious as undergraduate academia can be, which is not quite glorious) or if what I am choosing to go into is generic, not conducive to any financial livelihood, and just career suicide. I love all that I wrote in the above, but I also want to be able to own property some day, take care of my parents at some point, and start a family.

At this point, what I have written is where my idealistic heart is – but my realistic mind is also telling me to get an MPA/MPP or a non-profit focused MBA to perhaps run a non-profit that may do all of the above. But, in the long run, I do see myself researching, enjoying administrative work at a university level, and running a Writing Center. I am just not sure what is viable.

My top choice is the University of Texas program (I am from Texas but have spent the last 6 years away from the state) – and to go somewhere where I am fully funded – I am most definitely in undergraduate debt, which already terrifies me.

Any advice welcome – my apologies for being so wordy!

If you are really interested in working in a writing center, then rhet/comp is the way to go, and I do think it is a growing field and here's the data to support it http://www.u.arizona.edu/~enos/ . This also shows funding levels at PhD programs at the time of this study, so it's worth just taking a look. If you are really interested in running a writing center, you'll definitely want to apply to programs where that is the emphasis. Hope this helps.

[bck203]

I am certainly not qualified to dispense much advice here, as I'm just an MA lit applicant myself, but here are two ideas I found helpful in my search:

1. Do informational interviews. They're really great! Reach out to current Rhet/Comp PhD students, writing center directors, professors, etc., and ask if they wouldn't mind sharing their experiences. Phone or in-person interviews are best, but email works too. Ask thoughtful questions about the issues you are struggling with and seek their insight.

2. If you think you might regret not applying, and you can bear the financial and personal cost of working on applications, then apply! Last year (my senior year in college), I struggled with whether or not to apply, and decided to wait a year. This year, I still felt conflicted and lacking in confidence, but when I asked myself "If I don't apply this fall, will I regret it come spring?" the answer was definitely yes. I don't know where I will end up going or if this is a good decision for my long-term future...but I'm glad that I at least threw my hat into the ring, because if I hadn't I would have always wondered "what if." You can always apply and not go. The only losses are financial (applying is expensive...probably around $400 total cost for me, with expensive GRE stuff and application fees) and the time spent working on your application.

And don't read the Chronicle of Higher Education TOO much. It gets a bit depressing (articles with headlines like "MA in English, Will Mow Lawns," etc).

Also, this is kind of random, but I work at UT-Austin currently (though not in the English department) so if you have any general questions about the school I might be able to help with those.

Edited January 6, 2011 by bck203

[Bumblebee9]

If it helps, I can throw in my experience with a master's degree and why I am seeking a PhD. With a master's degree, I have had tons of job offers--as part time and/or long term adjunct. I've been teaching at a university, professional college, and technical college (residentially and online). However, I've only had one fulltime permanent interview/teaching demo at a tech college. (I was passed over for a candidate who had been adjuncting there for several years--and rightfully so. They knew her and what she was capable of).

I actually have too many composition/developmental writing courses right now, and working part time in a writing center--like most adjuncts. You are able to make a living this way. I've met career adjuncts all over the place. And you actually make good money...sometimes really, really good money.

The problem: you are part time with absolutely no long term commitment. So, if the institution wants to cut classes or save a little money, adjuncts are the first thing to go. This could be a reduction in the number of courses they offer you per semester, or it could be a complete "See ya." There is no job security and no health insurance (usually--different if you work part "fulltime" at a state college). So, to create any type of stability, you have to work at two or three (or more) institutions just to know you will have SOME courses next semester.

As an adjunct, you are also the last person to be scheduled for courses and writing center shifts, so you find out about next semester as early as three months ahead of time (if you're lucky) and as late a one week ahead of time. You also have to take or leave what they give you--which means all evening/night or early morning courses and shifts, usually. Some days I get up at 5a.m. and teach/tutor until 9p.m. Makes life difficult. At some point, most adjuncts give this up and work part time for a business of some sort (with stability and health insurance) and adjunct 2 or 3 courses a semester. Plus, you don't get to know your fellow instructors very well being a "gypsy scholar" as one of my professors put it.

Getting a PhD is often the only way to become more competitive for those hard won fulltime jobs. I have a masters degree, teaching experience is just about every subfield of English, I'm published, and I continue to do independent research. But still, I'm no different from hundreds of other applicants with the same or similar experience. Getting a PhD doesn't guarantee fulltime employment in com-rhet, but it does give you more experience, better research abilities, and more connections. (In addition, I didn't feel like my education was done at the masters level--I'm raring to get back.)

Edited January 19, 2011 by Bumblebee9

[s226]

Sorry it this shows up twice. I hit a key and the post was gone. I'm wondering about the job outlook for MAs in Rhet/Comp. I'm thinking about taking courses in Digital Rhetoric as well as adding TESL to my program even if it takes me an extra year (if I get funding). Yesterday, I spoke with the Director of the Writing Center at the community college where I tutor. He told me that getting the MA was like a "cover charge" or a "club card." He has an MA but it took him 10 years at this college to be hired full-time. I'd like to teach at a community college. I'm wondering if the cachet of the university where the MA is offered is relevant as it's not a PhD. Has anyone heard of UM-Flint? I went to Michigan-Ann Arbor undergrad so that's why I'm looking at it. Also, looking at Michigan State but I missed their funding deadline. (I was wondering also if anyone knows whether those funding deadlines are hard and fast). I don't want to do a PhD--am ABD in clinical psych and don't want to repeat that process or take that long. Thank you for any help.

[thestage]

you sound more qualified than 90% of any possible list of candidates, and I am under the impression that comp/rhet programs get significantly less applicants than their literature cousins.

but it sounds like admittance isn't your concern. you work at a school, and you have contacts with professionals in the field. ask them for their impressions of the state of the field. there's no reason not to. I would also say that you may be in the somewhat enviable position of working in a field that should look favorably upon the PhD anyway. so at worst, you graduate, find no jobs in "proper" academia, and then go back to what you were doing anyway, only now with (ostensibly) a better chance at advancment. with a background as a councilor added to the PhD stamp that says you are also a theoretical expert in a field, I would imagine it might be possible for you to essentially create your own employment niche. you want to design a program? pitch that program. you'll have the background to be taken seriously. I mean, it might all be fantasy in the end, but that is the case with aboslutely every possible career path or goal in the history of modern man.

Edited January 21, 2012 by thestage

[ComeBackZinc]

A few things from a rhet/comp person.

• MLA has information on specific subfields, and yes, the job market is significantly better, and has been improving
  
• There hasn't been a significant growth in the number of applicants to rhet/comp programs, or significantly more admits, in part out of a concerted effort by programs not to overwhelm the market
  
• Part of the reason that there are more jobs in rhet/comp is that administrators believe that our field is more practical than literature. That's not a formulation that I would endorse, and I reject a lot of the assumptions that underlie it, but with many administrators, it's reality. The fundamental dynamic is that some universities consider writing an essential skill, but don't value literature in the same way (I'm sorry to say)
  
• Perceived antagonism between rhet/comp and literature is often overblown
  
• Be aware that composition, writing, rhetoric, and various formulations of same are not always housed within English, and some which once were no longer are
  
• Absolutely do not attend graduate school unless you are funded
  
• It's true that rhet/comp programs get many fewer applicants than major lit departments. But rhet/comp programs also tend to get far fewer frivolous/unqualified applicants. As the field is small, and not very much in the public eye, people who do apply tend to be serious applicants with serious applications
  
• There are no guarantees, in any field, for any student. As a general rule, "don't get your PhD" seems very sensible. I could very well end up being that lawn mowing PhD
  
• Just as one data point, my department has never had a PhD who attempted to work in a tenure-track job and failed to get one, in over 30 years of awarding the degree
  

Edited January 23, 2012 by ComeBackZinc

[Two Espressos]

A few things from a rhet/comp person.

• MLA has information on specific subfields, and yes, the job market is significantly better, and has been improving
  
• There hasn't been a significant growth in the number of applicants to rhet/comp programs, or significantly more admits, in part out of a concerted effort by programs not to overwhelm the market
  
• Part of the reason that there are more jobs in rhet/comp is that administrators believe that our field is more practical than literature. That's not a formulation that I would endorse, and I reject a lot of the assumptions that underlie it, but with many administrators, it's reality. The fundamental dynamic is that some universities consider writing an essential skill, but don't value literature in the same way (I'm sorry to say)
  
• Perceived antagonism between rhet/comp and literature is often overblown
  
• Be aware that composition, writing, rhetoric, and various formulations of same are not always housed within English, and some which once were no longer are
  
• Absolutely do not attend graduate school unless you are funded
  
• It's true that rhet/comp programs get many fewer applicants than major lit departments. But rhet/comp programs also tend to get far fewer frivolous/unqualified applicants. As the field is small, and not very much in the public eye, people who do apply tend to be serious applicants with serious applications
  
• There are no guarantees, in any field, for any student. As a general rule, "don't get your PhD" seems very sensible. I could very well end up being that lawn mowing PhD
  
• Just as one data point, my department has never had a PhD who attempted to work in a tenure-track job and failed to get one, in over 30 years of awarding the degree
  

I second all the above.

I don't know much about comp/rhetoric, but I have a friend of a friend who received a PhD from ComeBackZinc's program (Purdue) a few years ago who told me basically the same things.

From my (limited) understanding, Purdue is the comp/rhetoric program. The Purdue grad I know received multiple tenure-track offers upon graduating. She now has a tenure-track position at a solid university. The job market is significantly better, but as ComeBackZinc mentions, the odds are never certain, so don't go into the comp/rhetoric field just for the better job prospects.

Unless, maybe, you get admitted to Purdue.

ALSO: while the perceived antagonism between comp/rhetoric and literature may be overblown, it certainly still exists. I've witnessed it from the literature end.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Two Espressos

[ComeBackZinc]

It's a delicate topic.... The thing is that it's hard to separate the personalities/individual department politics from the competing interests of the two fields. I will say that at both my MA and PhD institutions, things were fine between the grad students. Typically the problems are in the faculty.

Other great rhet/comp programs include Michigan State, Illinois, Arizona, Penn State, UNC, Virginia Tech, Syracuse. (No offense to any programs I didn't mention, this is just right off the top of my head.)

[yellowjackets]

I hear many say here rhetoric/comp is for rat brains. It's not intellectually stimulating at all. That's why lit people look down on rhetoric/comp folks. FYI Purdue's lit program isn't strong at all, I think, it ranks in the bottom tier. The rhetoric/comp PhD is for people who are very enthusiastic about teaching, above all else. If you have years of teaching experience at a high school or community college and loved it (which is very rare), the rhetoric/comp PhD is the way to go. The reason the job market looks better for rhet/comp PhDs is there are a lot of community colleges and small universities in the middle of nowhere where you have to teach 4/4 comp sections or more every year with a low salary. Yes, these are TT positions, and you have to teach like that for the rest of your life. These schools don't usually look for PhDs from prestigious schools (Harvard, Yale, Berkeley) because it's all about teaching, I mean, teaching often mentally challenged kids at a crappy school.

[JeremiahParadise]

I will say that at both my MA and PhD institutions, things were fine between the grad students. Typically the problems are in the faculty.

Yes! This was definitely my experience as an MA student. I had classes with both Lit and Comp PhDs, and there was zero animosity/oneupsmanship between them. In fact, a few of them had significant research interest overlap (trauma/scriptotherapy/selfwriting). It was actually quite heartening.

[marlowe]

I think most literature people don't like Comp/Rhet simply because they don't want to teach composition. Teaching composition is one of those things that low ranking lecturers in English literature do until they can score some upper level literature classes.

[yellowjackets]

I think most literature people don't like Comp/Rhet simply because they don't want to teach composition. Teaching composition is one of those things that low ranking lecturers in English literature do until they can score some upper level literature classes.

Most comp/rhet courses are taught by graduate students like you these days, which is often called modern-day slavery in the US.

[marlowe]

Most comp/rhet courses are taught by graduate students like you these days, which is often called modern-day slavery in the US.

Agreed; I am teaching several at the moment.

[Two Espressos]

I hear many say here rhetoric/comp is for rat brains. It's not intellectually stimulating at all. That's why lit people look down on rhetoric/comp folks. FYI Purdue's lit program isn't strong at all, I think, it ranks in the bottom tier. The rhetoric/comp PhD is for people who are very enthusiastic about teaching, above all else. If you have years of teaching experience at a high school or community college and loved it (which is very rare), the rhetoric/comp PhD is the way to go. The reason the job market looks better for rhet/comp PhDs is there are a lot of community colleges and small universities in the middle of nowhere where you have to teach 4/4 comp sections or more every year with a low salary. Yes, these are TT positions, and you have to teach like that for the rest of your life. These schools don't usually look for PhDs from prestigious schools (Harvard, Yale, Berkeley) because it's all about teaching, I mean, teaching often mentally challenged kids at a crappy school.

Well, you didn't handle that with much nuance!

I have heard similar things from the literature end about comp/rhetoric being for, as you put it, "rat brains." Essentially, I've heard people scoff at comp/rhetoric as being a lowly, simplistic field for those who "couldn't do anything else." (Note: I do not endorse those claims whatsoever.)

I know little, but it seems to me that comp/rhetoric is concerned with much more pragmatic issues than literary studies. As someone mentioned above, administrators--often in total ignorance, but still--probably view comp/rhetoric work as much more "useful" than literature. I don't agree with that at all, but that's probably one of the reasons comp/rhetoric PhD's have way better placement rates.

As for comp/rhetoric PhD's teaching "mentally challenged kids at a crappy school": I think that's a rather rude way to characterize an entire field. The PhD I know has a tenure-track position at a four-year university, which isn't crappy at all. And while she's never told me how much she makes (it's really not my business), I remember talking with someone else about it, and this person said that the aforementioned PhD makes around ~$60,000 a year. Not too shabby, I'd say.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Two Espressos

[yellowjackets]

The PhD I know has a tenure-track position at a four-year university, which isn't crappy at all. And while she's never told me how much she makes (it's really not my business), I remember talking with someone else about it, and this person said that the aforementioned PhD makes around ~$60,000 a year. Not too shabby, I'd say.

Not all but many. Only a few as in any other disciplines will land such a coveted job. That sounds like one of those Research I or mid-tier universities, if that's a beginning assistant professor's salary. And also it depends on where you end up. $60000 a year is not much in California or NY.

Edited January 23, 2012 by yellowjackets

[ComeBackZinc]

Well, I'm typically not one to feed trolls. Here's what I'll say.

First, none of the graduate classes taught in rhetoric and composition, at either my MA or PhD institutions, are taught by graduate students.

Second, I won't speak to the quality and importance of the scholarship being produced in my field; I wouldn't bother. To begin with, many literature people lack the necessary understanding of research methods, statistics, or social sciences to understand these studies. That's no insult. It merely means that they are not the best to judge, just as I wouldn't expect a communications professor to adequately judge scholarship in comparative lit. Also, many people who are major names in rhet/comp, such as Gerald Graff, are also important in literature.

Third, I know many rhet/comp people who are teaching at mainstream, high-quality institutions. Yes, they tend to be large public research universities. That happens to be where I want to teach, as I'm interested in research first. But these are major universities, like the University of California system, the University of Michigan, etc. If you think that the prospects are better for the average literature PhD, you're fooling yourself. The job market for literature is not bad. It's terrible. I'd rather have options in public universities than no options at all. And if you think your contempt for community college students isn't a matter of racism and classism, you're fooling yourself.

Finally, antagonism towards rhet/comp tends to come from people in lit who are angry and bitter about the slow demise of literature as a field of professional study. I'm sorry about that. At many programs, the existence of rhet/comp, ESL, or similar social scientific departments keeps literature afloat; we provide the funding, and the hiring rates for our PhDs, that keep departments solvent. I wish there was adequate funding and jobs for everyone. I very much hope that the lit job market rebounds. But allowing unhappiness with lit's dire prospects to act as an excuse for ugly, close-minded sentiment is childish, and totally against the elementary credos of the research university. There are many valuable paths to human knowledge. You don't have to understand them all to support their right to exist, and to define excellence in their own way.

Literature people attacking rhet/comp are increasingly in the position of people making a loud noise in a small room. The study of literature as a professional occupation might not survive in anything like its current scale. I hope that's not the case, but lashing out at the people who have nothing to do with that status does you no good. Neither does reveling in a conceited impracticality or obscurity.

[ComeBackZinc]

Oh, and by the way, most TT rhet/comp professors don't teach anything like 4/4 loads. At both my MA and PhD institutions, the TT/tenured professors teach course schedules just like their tenured lit counterparts. Most don't have to teach lower-level undergraduate courses at all, and some don't. Many do because they love to teach. (Imagine that.) Personally, I find the fact that you treat love for teaching and a desire to teach undergrads as a mark of shame to be both typical and laughable. I am in this to research, but I'm also in it to teach, as anyone who wants to be a professor should.

[generic31290]

Most comp/rhet courses are taught by graduate students like you these days, which is often called modern-day slavery in the US.

Teaching Composition and Rhetoric has been by far the best job I have ever had.

[antecedent]

Well, I'm typically not one to feed trolls. Here's what I'll say.

First, none of the graduate classes taught in rhetoric and composition, at either my MA or PhD institutions, are taught by graduate students.

Second, I won't speak to the quality and importance of the scholarship being produced in my field; I wouldn't bother. To begin with, many literature people lack the necessary understanding of research methods, statistics, or social sciences to understand these studies. That's no insult. It merely means that they are not the best to judge, just as I wouldn't expect a communications professor to adequately judge scholarship in comparative lit. Also, many people who are major names in rhet/comp, such as Gerald Graff, are also important in literature.

Third, I know many rhet/comp people who are teaching at mainstream, high-quality institutions. Yes, they tend to be large public research universities. That happens to be where I want to teach, as I'm interested in research first. But these are major universities, like the University of California system, the University of Michigan, etc. If you think that the prospects are better for the average literature PhD, you're fooling yourself. The job market for literature is not bad. It's terrible. I'd rather have options in public universities than no options at all. And if you think your contempt for community college students isn't a matter of racism and classism, you're fooling yourself.

Finally, antagonism towards rhet/comp tends to come from people in lit who are angry and bitter about the slow demise of literature as a field of professional study. I'm sorry about that. At many programs, the existence of rhet/comp, ESL, or similar social scientific departments keeps literature afloat; we provide the funding, and the hiring rates for our PhDs, that keep departments solvent. I wish there was adequate funding and jobs for everyone. I very much hope that the lit job market rebounds. But allowing unhappiness with lit's dire prospects to act as an excuse for ugly, close-minded sentiment is childish, and totally against the elementary credos of the research university. There are many valuable paths to human knowledge. You don't have to understand them all to support their right to exist, and to define excellence in their own way.

Literature people attacking rhet/comp are increasingly in the position of people making a loud noise in a small room. The study of literature as a professional occupation might not survive in anything like its current scale. I hope that's not the case, but lashing out at the people who have nothing to do with that status does you no good. Neither does reveling in a conceited impracticality or obscurity.

Well said!

[Two Espressos]

Well, I'm typically not one to feed trolls. Here's what I'll say.

First, none of the graduate classes taught in rhetoric and composition, at either my MA or PhD institutions, are taught by graduate students.

Second, I won't speak to the quality and importance of the scholarship being produced in my field; I wouldn't bother. To begin with, many literature people lack the necessary understanding of research methods, statistics, or social sciences to understand these studies. That's no insult. It merely means that they are not the best to judge, just as I wouldn't expect a communications professor to adequately judge scholarship in comparative lit. Also, many people who are major names in rhet/comp, such as Gerald Graff, are also important in literature.

Third, I know many rhet/comp people who are teaching at mainstream, high-quality institutions. Yes, they tend to be large public research universities. That happens to be where I want to teach, as I'm interested in research first. But these are major universities, like the University of California system, the University of Michigan, etc. If you think that the prospects are better for the average literature PhD, you're fooling yourself. The job market for literature is not bad. It's terrible. I'd rather have options in public universities than no options at all. And if you think your contempt for community college students isn't a matter of racism and classism, you're fooling yourself.

Finally, antagonism towards rhet/comp tends to come from people in lit who are angry and bitter about the slow demise of literature as a field of professional study. I'm sorry about that. At many programs, the existence of rhet/comp, ESL, or similar social scientific departments keeps literature afloat; we provide the funding, and the hiring rates for our PhDs, that keep departments solvent. I wish there was adequate funding and jobs for everyone. I very much hope that the lit job market rebounds. But allowing unhappiness with lit's dire prospects to act as an excuse for ugly, close-minded sentiment is childish, and totally against the elementary credos of the research university. There are many valuable paths to human knowledge. You don't have to understand them all to support their right to exist, and to define excellence in their own way.

Literature people attacking rhet/comp are increasingly in the position of people making a loud noise in a small room. The study of literature as a professional occupation might not survive in anything like its current scale. I hope that's not the case, but lashing out at the people who have nothing to do with that status does you no good. Neither does reveling in a conceited impracticality or obscurity.

Oh, and by the way, most TT rhet/comp professors don't teach anything like 4/4 loads. At both my MA and PhD institutions, the TT/tenured professors teach course schedules just like their tenured lit counterparts. Most don't have to teach lower-level undergraduate courses at all, and some don't. Many do because they love to teach. (Imagine that.) Personally, I find the fact that you treat love for teaching and a desire to teach undergrads as a mark of shame to be both typical and laughable. I am in this to research, but I'm also in it to teach, as anyone who wants to be a professor should.

Wow, that was an excellent series of retorts. You handled that with much more force and elegance than I did!

I second the notion of classism and racism directed towards community college students.

And I definitely agree about what fuels most anti-comp/rhetoric people in literature. I can feel literature slowly dying, as sad as that is. I certainly don't think that literature is going to die out completely, but it's certainly going to go through a restructuring phase and become much more marginalized than it already is.

In short, more pluralist thinking is needed between comp/rhetoric and literature folks.

[yellowjackets]

Wow, that was an excellent series of retorts. You handled that with much more force and elegance than I did!

I second the notion of classism and racism directed towards community college students.

And I definitely agree about what fuels most anti-comp/rhetoric people in literature. I can feel literature slowly dying, as sad as that is. I certainly don't think that literature is going to die out completely, but it's certainly going to go through a restructuring phase and become much more marginalized than it already is.

In short, more pluralist thinking is needed between comp/rhetoric and literature folks.

Hoorah, rat brains rule the world these days!

[Two Espressos]

(This message, as well as the prior one, was hurriedly typed up at work, while avoiding the panoptic gaze of my supervisors! So there may be more grammatical/orthographical errors than I would like.)

Some more things I wanted to add to the prior post:

I personally think some of the work that comp/rhetoric people do is really goddamn boring, like writing program adminstration. That isn't for me at all. But I wouldn't be so ostentatious as to suggest that that kind of work isn't worthwhile. Think about it: every universtiy has a writing program, even if it's just for first-year composition. Someone has to have the specialized knowledge to run it.

The job market in literature scares me. I really don't care about getting a tenure-track position at an R1 university, but I would like to have a decent-paying (aka, not adjuncting) job. So that's why comp/rhetoric has a perpetual attraction for me. My biggest worry is that a comp/rhetoric program won't be able to house/accomodate my interests. So I keep vacillating back and forth between literature and comp/rhetoric. If I decide to apply to MA/PhD programs my senior year, I'll probably apply to a mix of comp/rhetoric and literature programs.

But yeah, that was just a series of thoughts that I wanted to add to the prior post but didn't have time.

EDIT: I've been using "certainly" far too much.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Two Espressos