Will graduate students tell you bad things about their program?

[Strangefox]

I was wondering...

When I talk with graduate students from schools I applied to, I will certainly ask if there is anything they don't like about the program (or about the faculty).

If there are things they don't like, will they tell me? I mean, perhaps they will not want to tell the truth because this way they will "betray" the program, so to say? They will think: "We will tell Strangefox these things and then Strangefox will choose another program where there are no such things, but our program wants Strangefox to take THEIR offer [me being self-confident here ]!!!"

I am in a situation when I can't visit schools in order to get a feel of them so I am trying to devise ways to make sure that I will make the right decision.

Thanks!

[fuzzylogician]

Yes, I found that grad students were very honest about their programs when I talked to them AFTER I was admitted. I do the same: I answer applicants' questions honestly when they visit, but I wouldn't just go around saying bad things about my program to some random person who emailed me during the application process. Also, it's easier to say these things in person (even in a skype/phone conversation) than write it down in an email.

[Strangefox]

Yes, I found that grad students were very honest about their programs when I talked to them AFTER I was admitted. I do the same: I answer applicants' questions honestly when they visit, but I wouldn't just go around saying bad things about my program to some random person who emailed me during the application process. Also, it's easier to say these things in person (even in a skype/phone conversation) than write it down in an email.

Thank you!

Yes, I was going to ask that when I am admitted and while talking by Skype.

[hejduk]

Thank you!

Yes, I was going to ask that when I am admitted and while talking by Skype.

I second that students are more inclined to be honest via any communication that is not email; i got quite candid information via Skype or phone, whereas they didn't feel comfortable answering some of my questions in email. But of course, in-person is the best, as you can judge the nonverbals to judge whether they're being honest or not. I think most students are honest when given the appropriately worded question, but keep in mind that some students are considered "program ambassadors" or such.

[Strangefox]

I second that students are more inclined to be honest via any communication that is not email; i got quite candid information via Skype or phone, whereas they didn't feel comfortable answering some of my questions in email. But of course, in-person is the best, as you can judge the nonverbals to judge whether they're being honest or not. I think most students are honest when given the appropriately worded question, but keep in mind that some students are considered "program ambassadors" or such.

In-person is out of the question, I am quite far from America right now, the trip would cost me a fortune.

"Program ambassadors" - that is whom I am afraid of. If my potential advisor recommends me to talk to a certain student - this student might well be such an ambassador. I guess, to avoid that I need to talk to several students and choose some of them myself. How many do you recommend? 2-3? How many did you talk to when you were making your decision?

[XOwlfan]

I would ask to be connected with current advisees of the faculty member that is assigned to you as an adviser at each program. Advisees have the best information about the person they work with/for. Furthermore, you can be in an incredible program and your experience can be entirely altered by a negative relationship with an adviser. I contacted advisees in my current program, and nobody mentioned anything unfavorable at the time. It wasn't until the second year in my program that people openly spoke to me about their experiences. By that point, it was too late. People are definitely cautious about saying anything negative about the program they are in.

[Strangefox]

It wasn't until the second year in my program that people openly spoke to me about their experiences. By that point, it was too late. People are definitely cautious about saying anything negative about the program they are in.

That is what I am afraid of!!

So what can I do to avoid such situation? If I cannot visit a school, if I can only talk to POI and his/her advisees?

I do not want to do somethng wrong making such an important choice!!

[Strangefox]

I am sure that many people will be honest when answering such a question but I also see very well how a person can think: "What if I say bad things about my advisor and then it will come to haunt me??"

That is what I am worried about.

[Medievalmaniac]

I am sure that many people will be honest when answering such a question but I also see very well how a person can think: "What if I say bad things about my advisor and then it will come to haunt me??"

That is what I am worried about.

I will state that from personal experience, many graduate students will tell you the good,bad and ugly, as long as you don't seem like you are fishing for it - if it comes up in an honest conversation, they'll often be quite frank.

The MOST honest responses I have ever gotten, though, have been from professors on the cusp of retiring. They don't CARE what anyone thinks of them, they're leaving. I had one professor write horrible things about the direction his department was going in, and then suggest five or six other departments he thought would be a better choice for me and my interests. I had another older professor who simply wrote: "Don't come here. They'll wreck your enthusiasm. Go somewhere where graduate students are genuinely supported". Needless to say, I didn't apply to those programs, and I was really grateful for the heads-up. So - you might try contacting professors with older hiring dates listed on the websites...?

[qbtacoma]

I am sure that many people will be honest when answering such a question but I also see very well how a person can think: "What if I say bad things about my advisor and then it will come to haunt me??"

That is what I am worried about.

If you are professional in the way you ask the questions and respond to them then hopefully they will trust that you will be discreet. I don't think you can do much else to convince a wary grad student to spill the beans. It is a calculated risk we all must take. I'm not looking forward to that part of the process.

Also, if your undergrad professors happen to personally know the people you work with then they will be happy to give you a heads up about potential problems.

Edited January 22, 2011 by qbtacoma

[Strangefox]

I will state that from personal experience, many graduate students will tell you the good,bad and ugly, as long as you don't seem like you are fishing for it - if it comes up in an honest conversation, they'll often be quite frank.

The MOST honest responses I have ever gotten, though, have been from professors on the cusp of retiring. They don't CARE what anyone thinks of them, they're leaving. I had one professor write horrible things about the direction his department was going in, and then suggest five or six other departments he thought would be a better choice for me and my interests. I had another older professor who simply wrote: "Don't come here. They'll wreck your enthusiasm. Go somewhere where graduate students are genuinely supported". Needless to say, I didn't apply to those programs, and I was really grateful for the heads-up. So - you might try contacting professors with older hiring dates listed on the websites...?

Thanks for the great reply!

About contacting old professors - interesting idea! Though I am not sure I will dare to do that... It might seem quite weird to them and who knows whom they will tell about that...

"...as long as you don't seem like you are fishing for it..." - what do you mean? If I ask them directly (it won't be my first question, of course): "Are there things you do not really like about the program?" - will it be considered fishing?

[XOwlfan]

In an effort to avoid "fishing," contacting the same student a few different times will show that you are genuinely curious and interested. It would also allow you to establish at least some sort of relationship. A good way to approach the topic might be: "If you could do the same thing over again, would you?" or "What would you do differently now that you are at this point in your degree." I found that framing the question this way afforded more honest answers than I expected (and I ended up not applying to three programs that were on my initial list).

It may also be helpful to look for alumni who published with your potential adviser or at least researched with them during their degree...having been out of the program for a bit and involved in the "real world" again, they would have a unique perspective on a program.

[BlueRose]

I plan to ask about faculty at other schools. Grad students talk amongst themselves (at conferences and such), and they know who does shoddy work, who's a #%@$ to their students, and so on. And they have no reason not to tell me that they think Prof So-and-So at U. Somewhere Else is a #%@$. I know I have been brutally honest when asked questions along those lines...but then, I've got a deficient brain-to-mouth self-preservation filter anyhow.

[ZeChocMoose]

I agree with the posters about asking current graduate students over the phone and in person. If there is no written record of their complaints, they may be more honest.

If you get to visit campus, I also like to rely on non-verbal cues between faculty and students. Does it look like they respect each other and are the faculty generally interested in their students' best interests? I would also trust your gut on a lot of things. If what they say and how the behave are not adding up-- something is probably not right and you need to get to the bottom of it. I also recommend asking the same question to multiple people and seeing if their answers compare i.e. how would you describe the culture of the department/program, are the expectations reasonable, are the faculty available, etc. I would particularly ask these questions to both students and faculty. If there are wildly different answers, that is a red flag. If the answers sound eerily similar (like they rehearsed them) that could be another red flag.

In my experience, most people are honest and want you to have accurate information to make your decision. It is in no one's best interest if you are unhappy and drop out of the program. And like most things in life, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly about any program-- you just have to be honest with yourself whether you are willing to deal with those issues.

[Strangefox]

If there are wildly different answers, that is a red flag. If the answers sound eerily similar (like they rehearsed them) that could be another red flag.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA I am getting more and more paranoid!!!!!

But seriosly thank you for the great advice!

[fuzzylogician]

I plan to ask about faculty at other schools. Grad students talk amongst themselves (at conferences and such), and they know who does shoddy work, who's a #%@$ to their students, and so on. And they have no reason not to tell me that they think Prof So-and-So at U. Somewhere Else is a #%@$. I know I have been brutally honest when asked questions along those lines...but then, I've got a deficient brain-to-mouth self-preservation filter anyhow.

Be careful with this strategy. I was consistently told bad things about my current school by students at other schools that were just completely wrong. They were relying on rumors more than anything else, which is no replacement for actual first-hand experience. Frankly, students and professors who made an effort to tell me why other schools sucked instead of convincing me why their program was the best fit for me achieved nothing except completely turning me off their schools.

[rising_star]

I'm completely honest with visiting students about the program, the university, life in the town, etc. I am by no means a "program ambassador" because there are a few things I take issue with. But, like I said, if you ask me for my opinion, then you'll get it. This is more often done in person because I don't really ever have prospective students emailing me (perhaps because my advisor hasn't been taking students for the past couple of years?). I found the same was true when I visited programs. Take the opportunity to go to lunch/dinner/drinks with the grads WITHOUT professors around because you might get a different answer from someone when his/her advisor is listening in on the conversation.

I don't think anyone in my program sugarcoats things for visiting students. BUT, I would say that's something you should be able to suss out for yourself on a campus visit. If you only hear positive things and never anything critical or negative, then either you're visiting the best program in the world (in which case, tell us where it is so we can all go!) or people are hiding things from you. Go with your gut reaction and use every skill you've ever gained about judging both a situation and a person.

[Strangefox]

I don't think anyone in my program sugarcoats things for visiting students. BUT, I would say that's something you should be able to suss out for yourself on a campus visit. If you only hear positive things and never anything critical or negative, then either you're visiting the best program in the world (in which case, tell us where it is so we can all go!) or people are hiding things from you. Go with your gut reaction and use every skill you've ever gained about judging both a situation and a person.

Thank you very much! Unfortunately, I can't visit schools I applied to so I am going to talk with grad students via Skype... I hope they will be honest with me!