Opinions about ranking

[Strangefox]

Well, you get it in the sense you have to report it as income at tax time :-D

Oh yes, American taxes, - soon I will learn so much more about them!

[roarie]

ETA:

Okay, now I have a question. Say I have two schools with all things equal except for the reputation of my POI in the field. Professor A is quite famous and influential but brutal on grad students (in a bad way, in that former grad students advise me not to work with A). Professor B is less well known but is a very supportive advisor - but placement may be an issue later. Which should I pick?

That is a toughie. This pretty much describes my professor at my undergraduate institution. He was -- how do I put this-- a monster in his field and arguably the most esteemed professor of his sub-sub-field in America as of now. His name had such value that even though he wasn't quite in my sub-sub-field, I still asked him for a letter of recommendation, because I knew that even a letter that would say "She is a competent historian," with his initials would go a long way. You would not believe how many professors I've talked to since graduating from my undergraduate talk about him with me and am amazed that he volunteered to write me a letter, as he is, as another esteemed professor described, "a mean old grouch."

I love him and I'm grateful for what's he's done for me, but I would not go and work with him, even if I were in his sub-sub-field. I've seen him maul graduate students in class, and, more than one professor outside of my undergraduate school has mentioned to me how many careers he's destroyed. Since graduating from my undergrad, I've come to really value support systems that schools provide, and I can't imagine going back to someone like him.

Remember that even if you do everything you need to do, there's several things you can't control. What if the book you're about to publish suddenly has its publishers back out on you? It's at those moments you need advisers who can pull strings and work for you [this is a true story from a tenured professor at an Ivy League school who told us his experience to stress the importance of advising].

[awvish]

Does anyone know where I can find reliable international rankings (better yet, field-specific international rankings)?

I know about looking at publications and conferences and faculty awards and so forth, but I'm assuming I'll be less good at making a comparison than someone like the USNaWR. I'm not yet in a position to have the exciting dilemma of needing to choose, but I'd like to know where the two stand relative to each other since all else (personal fit, campus, funding, etc) is as close to equal as these things get and daydreaming about possible outcomes definitely puts me needing to make this decision.

[Strangefox]

Does anyone know where I can find reliable international rankings (better yet, field-specific international rankings)?

Yeah, it's a good question! We've determined so far that ranking can be important or not very important depending on many factors

Let's say I believe in rankings, what kind of rankings do I use? What rankings are the most reliable??

Edited February 19, 2011 by Strangefox

[starmaker]

Let's say I believe in rankings, what kind of rankings do I use? What rankings are the most reliable??

Depends on what factors you care about. Any reputable ranking should publish its methodology. Are you looking for pure reputation? Excellence along various axes that are valued by academics? Job placement numbers?

[arkel]

I'm pondering this question as well.

I've been getting a lot of advice from co-workers and friends (some of whom have been through grad school and subsequent job search), and many are saying that I should prioritize rankings, as a PhD from a highly-ranked school will help me in a future job search.

Yet, I've visited a few schools, and I'm finding that I'm least excited about a top-5 school and most excited about a lower-ranked (but still great!) school (I'm not sure exactly how it would rank - probably about top 20 or 30). Also, the POI at the school I'm excited about is very young, and I would be one of his first students. Some people are saying I should be wary of this as well.

I think the reasons behind my enthusiasm about this school are the people, as well as the research fit. Interpersonal factors are incredibly important to me, and the grad students, staff, and faculty here were genuinely nice, and only had great things to say about my POI. Also, every time I think about the research I could be doing with this POI, I get a flutter of excitement about the possibilities.

In the past, I've always made my decisions based on what "feels right", and I don't think I would be happy with a decision that wasn't made this way. I've tried formulas and lists, but I don't think they will get me any closer to a satisfactory choice. I'm pretty stubborn, and taking other people's advice at the expense of my gut feelings usually leaves me feeling unhappy. I just don't want to worry about my job prospects 6-10 years from now. Am I being impractical? I want to go where I will be happiest.

(Of course, different people make decisions in different ways, and I'm sure lists/formulas, etc. lead many people to their most satisfactory choice!)

Also, as an anecdote, which might not be representative: My undergrad school interviewed 3 candidates for a faculty position last year - 2 were from top-ranked Ivy League schools and one was from a lower-ranked school (maybe top-50?), but had a TON of publications. And the one from the lower-ranked school got the job... From this example, it seems like productivity trumps all...Although perhaps at a lower-ranked school, one would need to have greater self-motivation to be really productive, as expectations might not be quite as high?

Edited February 22, 2011 by arkel

[Kathiza]

@arkel: I'd say go with your gut! If you go with what rankings say, you might be burnt out by the time you are trying to apply for jobs. When I chose my field of study (communications), people were telling me I'd never ever get a job, I'd never have any perspective in my life. This field has a pretty bad reputation in my country and people were telling me things like I should skip studying and go into unemployment right away etc. But you know what? I went with my guts. I was so interested in what I was doing, I put a lot of energy and effort in it and I have to say I was really good. I never had problems finding a job or an internship even with big national newspapers (I was specializing in journalism).

I think what I'm trying to say: Go with your guts, because you will be happier and more productive, you will have a great advisor who will for sure do his best to help you with your career. And if you're passionate about something, you won't have any problems finding a job. That's what I believe in.

Something totally different I have to ask: When you all talk about rankings, do you mean university rankings or department rankings? Because I feel like my universities are not all top-ranked, but my departments are mostly in the top 6 for my field or so (for one school I don't know the rank). So when applying for jobs in my field, wouldn't department-rankings make more sense?

[Strangefox]

Something totally different I have to ask: When you all talk about rankings, do you mean university rankings or department rankings? Because I feel like my universities are not all top-ranked, but my departments are mostly in the top 6 for my field or so (for one school I don't know the rank). So when applying for jobs in my field, wouldn't department-rankings make more sense?

Yes, you are right, department ranking is more important. There were threads about that somewhere on the forum and the consensus on this issue was unanimous, as far as I remember.

[arkel]

@arkel: I'd say go with your gut! If you go with what rankings say, you might be burnt out by the time you are trying to apply for jobs. When I chose my field of study (communications), people were telling me I'd never ever get a job, I'd never have any perspective in my life. This field has a pretty bad reputation in my country and people were telling me things like I should skip studying and go into unemployment right away etc. But you know what? I went with my guts. I was so interested in what I was doing, I put a lot of energy and effort in it and I have to say I was really good. I never had problems finding a job or an internship even with big national newspapers (I was specializing in journalism).

I think what I'm trying to say: Go with your guts, because you will be happier and more productive, you will have a great advisor who will for sure do his best to help you with your career. And if you're passionate about something, you won't have any problems finding a job. That's what I believe in.

Thanks, Kathiza! I think that is what I will do.

I'm glad things worked out so well for you!