The time difference is drving me crazy!

[matilda]

Mid-March??? I thought that candidates are notified of of the review committee's recommendations in January/February, and that the final selection is in April-June? This is the US timeline:

http://us.fulbrightonline.org/overview_timeline.html

Our should be pretty much similar, right?

Oh, please, tell me am I in or out....

Edited February 3, 2011 by matilda

[Kathiza]

No, Fulbright Foreign Students deadlines are completely different and vary from country to country. Not even the programs of neighboring countries are the same or even similar. So all you can do is take a look at you country's deadline.

[matilda]

No, Fulbright Foreign Students deadlines are completely different and vary from country to country. Not even the programs of neighboring countries are the same or even similar. So all you can do is take a look at you country's deadline.

[Elsa]

I am not an international student-- I am actually an American. After I read the discussion about quotas, I felt that I had to post. There are no quotas for applicants based on race, gender, or sexual orientation in the US. There are two famous U.S. Supreme Court cases back in 2003 (Grutter v. Bollinger and Gratz v. Bollinger) that speak to affirmative action policies in university admissions. Essentially, they ruled that race can be used as a factor in the admission process but universities cannot establish quotas for specific races/ethnicities or assign points* to applicants based on their demographics. If universities did this, it would be illegal.

For the discussion on do universities have quotas for international students? It honestly doesn't make any sense. Just to think about it logistically, that would be a nightmare as programs and departments have different deadlines for admissions and release decisions at different times throughout the year. Just look to the gradcafe's result section to see this! I don't see how they would realistically coordinate this process.

From my personal perspective, I sat on my admission's committee when I was a master's student. International students were reviewed with everyone else and were not flagged or singled out. The adcomm was interested in what they wanted to study, their background in the field, and the strength of their research skills. Being a citizen of x country never came up nor was important to the adcomm.

I hope Elsa that you find that article and post it. I would be curious to read it.

If you want to see data on international enrollments at US graduate schools, the Council of Graduate Schools have several informative reports. http://www.cgsnet.or....aspx?tabid=172 You can see that international student enrollments are increasing not declining so that is good news for you all

* The "points" refers to the institution (in the court case) that was awarding underrepresented minorities 20 points. Applicants were rated on numerous items and if they received 100 points, they were admitted to the university.

I'm sorry but I stay on my positions, according to the numerous discussions that I had with American professors (Harvard, Reed, Fulbright comittee, Georgetown and Washington). They do have quotas, not by field but for the entire university. I'm not familiar with the American Law, but they were all positive about that fact. And they do separate the applications. It doesn't mean that they are not reviewed together, but they do know which of them are from the US and which are not... Plus, if they don't take into consideration the gender or the race, why do they ask you that question when you apply? Maybe it's not like : okay, let's take 20 black people this year, of course it doesn't work like that, but being black can be an asset. In my country, it is forbidden to even ask someone in an application form if they are black or asian, or purple for that matters. Forbidden. So maybe you're right, it's not written in stone, but they do take that into consideration when they review your application. Otherwise, 5 estimable professors lied to me.

I would love to post the article, I have it in pdf, how can I do that? It confirms that.

[Elsa]

An important variable in our

analyses is whether an applicant is

admitted to the program. However,

we modify this variable to compensate

for features of Harvard University's

Affirmative Action and financial

aid policies, as it affects the

work of the admissions committee. "

We give a brief overview of these

policies and then our analytical

decisions.

[Elsa]

Application files from

protected minorities are identified

with a bright green sticker on the

outside and a pink status sheet

inside.

PM me and I'll send you the article.

[ZeChocMoose]

Sent you a PM. I am confident that we will get to the bottom of this. Also I have reached out to my friends that work with international students at American Universities to hear if they have experiences with quotas for international students.

Why do they ask gender or race when you apply? Universities need to report enrollment numbers to the federal government. Part of those enrollment numbers are asking for the gender and race composition of their student body. It is much easier to ask students when they apply to fill out this demographic information. Colleges and universities who refuse to report enrollment numbers are not eligible for federal money (i.e. no federal grants or federal financial aid for students). As you can imagine that would grind most universities to a halt so they compile with these requests. Also in some cases there are university-wide fellowships based on your demographic characteristics (especially for the STEM fields). Departments need to know which students to recommend to these awards.

I also I want to make it clear that college and universities can factor in race and gender into the admission decision as part of a holistic review but they cannot allot x number of spaces for women or x number of spaces for black students because that is a quota and admission quotas are illegal. (I reread what I wrote above and I think I didn't make that clear enough on how they can use these demographic characteristics in the admission process).

[Vacuum]

Sent you a PM. I am confident that we will get to the bottom of this. Also I have reached out to my friends that work with international students at American Universities to hear if they have experiences with quotas for international students.

Why do they ask gender or race when you apply? Universities need to report enrollment numbers to the federal government. Part of those enrollment numbers are asking for the gender and race composition of their student body. It is much easier to ask students when they apply to fill out this demographic information. Colleges and universities who refuse to report enrollment numbers are not eligible for federal money (i.e. no federal grants or federal financial aid for students). As you can imagine that would grind most universities to a halt so they compile with these requests. Also in some cases there are university-wide fellowships based on your demographic characteristics (especially for the STEM fields). Departments need to know which students to recommend to these awards.

I also I want to make it clear that college and universities can factor in race and gender into the admission decision as part of a holistic review but they cannot allot x number of spaces for women or x number of spaces for black students because that is a quota and admission quotas are illegal. (I reread what I wrote above and I think I didn't make that clear enough on how they can use these demographic characteristics in the admission process).

I was the other person who mentioned the quotas and I also stand by what I said. I think it is different for every school, so it is hard to say 'this is how it is' and that is that. I've also worked in admissions for Med school and they do use the color stickers as mentioned earlier by Elsa for domestic/international/minority. I know that specifically for First Nations Peoples, their applications are given much more weight. Of course they have to have the basic qualifications but because they fit into the 'minority' category, they do have better chances at getting in, in order to round out the types of people they accept into the program. If the schools didn't take such measures, what if by fluke all white women got in aged 18-25. I'm sure someone would realize this and make it an issue for the schools. So they do go through and make sure the entire 'class' accepted make up a variety of backgrounds/race/age/sex etc..

I also applied to programs in the past that specifically say 'we take (insert number here) international students per year'. I do agree that all the candidates are reviewed together in terms of the same timeframe, but there still has to be some sort of criteria they meet. Most schools accept mainly domestic students simply because internationals usually end up going to their home country after their schooling and therefore the school that taught you your 'skill' has lost another person to add to their workforce (think healthcare!).

Also, the american applications do require you to fill out your race. I never encountered this in any other program I applied for (Australia/Canada/UK). I did find it quite surprsing that it was on there, but they do state in their 'agreements' that they do not judge based on race/sex/religion/gender/sexual preference. Interesting, no?

[ZeChocMoose]

I was the other person who mentioned the quotas and I also stand by what I said. I think it is different for every school, so it is hard to say 'this is how it is' and that is that. I've also worked in admissions for Med school and they do use the color stickers as mentioned earlier by Elsa for domestic/international/minority. I know that specifically for First Nations Peoples, their applications are given much more weight. Of course they have to have the basic qualifications but because they fit into the 'minority' category, they do have better chances at getting in, in order to round out the types of people they accept into the program. If the schools didn't take such measures, what if by fluke all white women got in aged 18-25. I'm sure someone would realize this and make it an issue for the schools. So they do go through and make sure the entire 'class' accepted make up a variety of backgrounds/race/age/sex etc..

I also applied to programs in the past that specifically say 'we take (insert number here) international students per year'. I do agree that all the candidates are reviewed together in terms of the same timeframe, but there still has to be some sort of criteria they meet. Most schools accept mainly domestic students simply because internationals usually end up going to their home country after their schooling and therefore the school that taught you your 'skill' has lost another person to add to their workforce (think healthcare!).

Also, the american applications do require you to fill out your race. I never encountered this in any other program I applied for (Australia/Canada/UK). I did find it quite surprsing that it was on there, but they do state in their 'agreements' that they do not judge based on race/sex/religion/gender/sexual preference. Interesting, no?

The issue I have is with the word "quota" because you are then saying that the entering student body needs to have x number of women or x number of people who identify as "black" regardless of what the applicant pool looks like. I agree that institutions can "craft" a class so to speak and I think it is important that they do so. It would be boring and unfortunate if everyone in your cohort was from the same background, had the same interests, from the same region, etc. It is important in your education experience to be exposed to a diversity of ideas and people so you can better interact with others in your profession and in the real world (so to speak).

Please see above about why US universities ask applicants to fill out race/ethnicity and sex. It is not surprising-- it is mostly logistics.

[Elsa]

The issue I have is with the word "quota" because you are then saying that the entering student body needs to have x number of women or x number of people who identify as "black" regardless of what the applicant pool looks like. I agree that institutions can "craft" a class so to speak and I think it is important that they do so. It would be boring and unfortunate if everyone in your cohort was from the same background, had the same interests, from the same region, etc. It is important in your education experience to be exposed to a diversity of ideas and people so you can better interact with others in your profession and in the real world (so to speak).

Please see above about why US universities ask applicants to fill out race/ethnicity and sex. It is not surprising-- it is mostly logistics.

Logistics? I don't mean to be rude, but isn't a little naive? You don't like the word "quotas", fine, let's use the word "reasonable amount of". See? It works now. They do support minorities and they do want "a reasonable amount of" international students. First, our fees are higher, Second, it's excellent for the reputation of the university, we spread it! Three, we are a diversity asset. For instance, on the Harvard application, they clearly state that they have a positive action policy in favor of women and minorities. How do they put that into action if they don't use quotas? They have a number in mind, of course they do. Now how it works exactly? I don't know, but I can tell you that I have several "minorities" friends who applied in the US for that reason : easier to get in...

[matilda]

I think that the forum title says: ?

Edited February 4, 2011 by matilda

[Zouzax]

update: last night I forced myself to go to bed at 12 AM. (I'm usually up until 2 AM, drinking wine & hitting the refresh button on my email obsessively). Woke up this morning feeling GREAT. I am now not allowed to check the results page more than once a day. I have signed up for 3 (yes, three) different language classes. Feel like a new person. Highly recommend it

[Elsa]

I think that the forum title says: ?

I think that democratic principles say : freedom of speech ;-)

[kaykaykay]

Note: International students do not count as minorities no matter what race they are from. One of my prof who is in the diversity committee was upset/angry that a real African student does not count as black. Well, even so they admitted him and not someone else. International students can cost more but I do not think that there are set quotas. Universities want the best, so if they want you they will figure something out. There are real barriers though: they may not know your recommenders, and your GRE may be lower, and they can have doubts about the your english skills no matter what.

[Bukharan]

I am not sure about other subjects, but in my subfield of History, I do not think there are any quotas for international students. When most History departments across the country accept 1-2 students in that subfield, and specialised departments in regional studies admit 4-5 students a year, I do not think adcoms care about race or nationality. Also, since the language requirement is hugely important in my field, international students often have a strong advantage and hence represent a much higher proportion of student body (often about 50%) then average in other disciplines.

[Vacuum]

I am not sure about other subjects, but in my subfield of History, I do not think there are any quotas for international students. When most History departments across the country accept 1-2 students in that subfield, and specialised departments in regional studies admit 4-5 students a year, I do not think adcoms care about race or nationality. Also, since the language requirement is hugely important in my field, international students often have a strong advantage and hence represent a much higher proportion of student body (often about 50%) then average in other disciplines.

It is just for the bigger programs that the tend to try and even things out.

Also, committees do have preferences when it comes to international students. Let's say you have very similar students when it comes to grades, LOR, SOP etc., but one is from China and one is from Africa. Preference would most likely go to Africa, as this is a less common applicant country. I know for Australia they have loans dedicated to students from certain countries to try and encourage them to study in Australia and it does not include countries like the USA/Canada/China/India/UK (countries that usually have large applicant pools to overseas study).

It does seem a bit harsh to judge aspects of an applicant like this, such as race, sex, country of residence, etc., but it does happen to certain degree. I don't think it is meant to offend anyone, but rather bring as much variation to the program as possible to enrich everyone's experience and provide multiple viewpoints.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Vacuum

[Langoustine]

I think that democratic principles say : freedom of speech ;-)

This is an interesting discussion but I think matilda is just pointing out that is has nothing to do with the title of this particular forum topic. I think this is meant to be a lighthearted venting space for international applicants. I for one am an American and have applied to a school in Europe so my time difference is the opposite of most people here!

Perhaps you can start a whole new thread about this issue? It seems lots of people have things to say about it

[matilda]

This is an interesting discussion but I think matilda is just pointing out that is has nothing to do with the title of this particular forum topic. I think this is meant to be a lighthearted venting space for international applicants. I for one am an American and have applied to a school in Europe so my time difference is the opposite of most people here!

Perhaps you can start a whole new thread about this issue? It seems lots of people have things to say about it

Thanks, Langoustine!

[eklavya]

merging the discussion to mainstream, i too am driven nuts by the time difference in different zones. and i live in the states!! what a shame, heh? i know it's crazy, but it is crazy, and that's exactly what the situation is. i am in the mountain west time zone, which is 2 hours behind all schools i have applied to. every morning when i wake up (i wake up little late, around 8am, my time), i have high hopes of getting an email from my schools. but nothing. and when the clock hits 3pm here, i feel like a soaked rabbit in the downpour - completely helpless, because it's 5pm at my schools, and all i can do is wait for the next day. which turns out to be the same as yesterday.

waiting freaking sucks!

[Elsa]

Thanks, Langoustine!

Sorry, I thought that the point of US gradschools was to seek for people who "think outside the box"?

[ikatticus]

I'm also in the UK, so the first thing I do is roll out of bed and check my emails, because I am that much of a loser! I have applied to both east and west coast universities so it's round the clock anxiety. And the worst thing is that a letter could be in the post but won't get to me for ages!

[dreaming 1]

I'm also in the UK, so the first thing I do is roll out of bed and check my emails, because I am that much of a loser! I have applied to both east and west coast universities so it's round the clock anxiety. And the worst thing is that a letter could be in the post but won't get to me for ages!

did you reply to many schools ikatticus? have you heard from any yet? i'm also in UK and the time difference nearly drove me out of my mind.

also i got a letter from an east coast school six days after it was postmarked just for an estimate of transit times! but i had heard from them by phone before which was ok, most schools won't send notification primarily or only by letter i think!

all the best

[dreaming 1]

I'm also in the UK, so the first thing I do is roll out of bed and check my emails, because I am that much of a loser! I have applied to both east and west coast universities so it's round the clock anxiety. And the worst thing is that a letter could be in the post but won't get to me for ages!

did you reply to many schools ikatticus? have you heard from any yet? i'm also in UK and the time difference nearly drove me out of my mind.

also i got a letter from an east coast school six days after it was postmarked just for an estimate of transit times! but i had heard from them by phone before which was ok, most schools won't send notification primarily or only by letter i think!

all the best

[ikatticus]

Ahh thanks that's really helpful to know that a letter only took 6 days! I have applied to 4 - 3 in the US and 1 in Canada. UCLA say on their website that they post out rejections via letter, and as I wasn't called to interview I am assuming a letter is on its way. Still keeping my fingers crossed in case!

[dreaming 1]

ah that would make sense about ucla as i haven't heard from them either, although their acceptances went up on the results tab nearly a whole month ago! although equally no-one has posted a rejection yet which is quite strange, and i think in past years theyve done rejections for my program by email.

ha this process leaves itself open to FAR TOO MUCH overthinking!!

where else did you apply? ucla would be AMAZING (im guessing my de facto rejection means it's not on my cards, but still!)

do you all your programs interview?