Having a serious problem with advisor/thesis, I need advice!!!!

[notgoingwell]

I am having a problem.

I began grad school a year and a half back, my entire goal was to do a thesis and publish in a conference/journal. I come from mathematics and was doing my MS in CS so it was a switch for me. Started working with my advisor, he is the mentor that really got me into computer science, and I consider him a good friend as well

Problem is that I was really not familiar enough with the field we were working in to come up with good ideas on my own. I would come up with a thesis idea, I would realize it was no good. This went on over and over. I kept trying to meet with my prof, but he is so busy that maybe we would meet once a month, at most. He started coming down really hard on me, telling me I can never do research, I will never do anything but I am getting nothing done. I keep asking him, can we meet more? I need help understanding how to do research in this field, etc. He says you can't teach that. I believe him, but, can't he help me learn anything? For example, on the rare occasion we meet he might mention something that was very useful. He has a wealth of knowledge in our field.

Now I am supposed to graduate, and I don't have anything for a thesis. I just can't come up with good ideas. He is emailed me yesterday and said I need to talk with the advisor for our graduate program so I can switch my thesis credits to independent study. I told him, I am willing to stay longer, without funding, etc., just to do more research, as this is my goal. He emailed me back and said he doesn't believe I can do it and doesn't think I can make a quality thesis.

Honestly this has gotten me so down. Isn't your advisor supposed to help you at all? Can't they give you even small ideas for research? I really came into computer science knowing literally nothing. And our field is very specialized and I knew nothing about that. I have learned a lot about it, but I feel like I need a leg up and just some guidance.

He says all these things about me, but I did research in another department for two years with no problem.

I am really sad and really down on this now. I am not sure what to do because this professor is a friend of mine, as we have the same social circle and socialize quite a bit outside of class. Yes I realize I might suck at research and I realize I don't have a lot of brilliant ideas, and forever I had just given up on myself because of that. But I also thing he might have something to do with it. For example, I can never EVER meet with him, I wait for an entire month to meet with him and tell him my ideas, etc. Usually he will stay and just lecture me the whole time about how I suck at research, and nothing gets done. I hoped in graduate school to get a mentor who would help me become a good researcher. Should I have just done this all solo? If so, what is even the point of having a research advisor for a thesis? I am so confused

More than that he just is so depressing on me. I am applying for a PhD program in mathematics because I am just sick of CS at this point, and he just tells me I won't succeed.

[Usmivka]

It is the norm for an adviser to give you basic thesis ideas, which you can then expand from.

There are two ways to interpret this based on how you've written it. The more charitable explanation is that your adviser is blurring the lines between his role as adviser and that of a friend. Perhaps as a friend he is saying this isn't the field for you. However, his job as an adviser is to advise you on your MS work. It sounds like he hasn't done this, which is his failure more than any issues you may be having.

The less charitable explanation (which seems more likely in this case) is that this guy is not your friend, and is a shitty adviser. Even a friend would help you trouble shoot and brainstorm. This guy is a failure as an adviser. I'm guessing he is young and relatively new to his role as a prof, otherwise you wouldn't be in the same social circles. Long and short of it is, he is a crummy adviser (which shoots him in the foot for tenure) and he is trying to blame it on you to salvage his career. You wouldn't have been accepted to the program unless you had the ability and research chops to hack it.

So it is time for damage control. If you haven't yet, you need to send your adviser an e-mail outlining your issues communicating with him in writing. Use specific dates or months to establish a clear timeline (otherwise it seems like you've just been sitting doing nothing all along). Save any written correspondence you do have. Talk to the grad adviser separately and bring this up, and be ready to leave a copy of all your correspondence with him/her. If they aren't helpful, take it to the department chair. Have a short outline of what you want to say and get out of any meeting with administrators so you can keep it right on point. I think your goal should be to switch advisers, and the school should pay for the extra year required. Had you taken this to the admin within a couple months of this issue beginning, this would have happened, no question. As it is now, the school may still care enough about its reputation to resolve this in your favor. I know two people with less outrageous circumstances who've gotten 2-3 years of additional funding to keep them quiet about a bad adviser. If they won't resolve this, you need to broadcast this (school and prof's name) to visiting students, here on the forum, and in other departments. Make a stink, they just wasted two years of your life and you don't want that to happen to others.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Usmivka

[notgoingwell]

First off, I want to say thank you so much for this reply. It is like a breath of fresh air. You don't know how much of a failure I have felt like because I haven't been able to complete this thesis project. I have worked so hard with no results. I am really happy to know it is normal for your advisor to get the basic ideas EDIT: I am sorry this response is very long

It is the norm for an adviser to give you basic thesis ideas, which you can then expand from.

There are two ways to interpret this based on how you've written it. The more charitable explanation is that your adviser is blurring the lines between his role as adviser and that of a friend. Perhaps as a friend he is saying this isn't the field for you. However, his job as an adviser is to advise you on your MS work. It sounds like he hasn't done this, which is his failure more than any issues you may be having.

Actually, I have a feeling this is the case. But I don't agree with him. See, he takes issue with the way I learn. I pretty much learn independently, by reading books. Throughout my undergrad career I rarely attended lectures. I didn't do it as disrespect, I am just very ADD and can't concentrate on people speaking to me. I have to read to learn. I think he thinks because of that I can never accomplish anything. I believed him for awhile, but I just don't believe him anymore. I think he is saying this as my friend, but I don't think he knows. I believe I can succeed.

The less charitable explanation (which seems more likely in this case) is that this guy is not your friend, and is a shitty adviser. Even a friend would help you trouble shoot and brainstorm. This guy is a failure as an adviser. I'm guessing he is young and relatively new to his role as a prof, otherwise you wouldn't be in the same social circles. Long and short of it is, he is a crummy adviser (which shoots him in the foot for tenure) and he is trying to blame it on you to salvage his career. You wouldn't have been accepted to the program unless you had the ability and research chops to hack it.

He is actually older and very accomplished in his field. He has so many publications it's insane. I think maybe he has just past his peek and doesn't want to work as much anymore. He only treats me like this and so I wonder if he just wants me to do really good. He thinks I should be able to figure it all out on my own and I shouldn't need any help, because this is how he did it. I know it's weird we are in the same social circles, it just happened. We are in the same international community, and it is a small community. He is a very good friend and is the one who got me accepted, got me funding initially, etc. Outside of class he is really nice and a joy to be around, as an adviser yeah I can't stand working with him anymore. No body wants to work with him anymore really for this reason. You have to beg the man to meet with him once a month, but if I were to ask him to go play tennis with me or if all of us friends have a get together, he will be there in an instant. So I know he is not truly spent on time, he just very much divides his personal life and professional life. It's so disapointing to me because he really is so accomplished, and has so much to teach. He is a really brilliant scientist and a very accomplished researcher, and I wish so badly I could be taught by him.

So it is time for damage control. If you haven't yet, you need to send your adviser an e-mail outlining your issues communicating with him in writing. Use specific dates or months to establish a clear timeline (otherwise it seems like you've just been sitting doing nothing all along). Save any written correspondence you do have. Talk to the grad adviser separately and bring this up, and be ready to leave a copy of all your correspondence with him/her. If they aren't helpful, take it to the department chair. Have a short outline of what you want to say and get out of any meeting with administrators so you can keep it right on point. I think your goal should be to switch advisers, and the school should pay for the extra year required. Had you taken this to the admin within a couple months of this issue beginning, this would have happened, no question. As it is now, the school may still care enough about its reputation to resolve this in your favor. I know two people with less outrageous circumstances who've gotten 2-3 years of additional funding to keep them quiet about a bad adviser. If they won't resolve this, you need to broadcast this (school and prof's name) to visiting students, here on the forum, and in other departments. Make a stink, they just wasted two years of your life and you don't want that to happen to others.

I guess this is my problem. This is exactly what I would do if he weren't my friend. But I would feel I am really double crossing him to do this. I swear I am not trying to disregard yours or anyone else's advice, but that is exactly what is making this situation so weird/hard for me. This man is a close friend, and not only is he a close friend, but all of my other close friends are close friends with him (we are all in the same social circle as I said and it is very tight knit). It would really wreck not only y friendship with him, but pretty much every close friendship in my life. He is a shitty adviser, I realize now, but he has done so much for me.

I have never found myself in a situation like this before. i feel he is being really biased against me and doesn't realize it. The PhD student who works under him, (she is also in our "group" and a close friend), says that to me he is very biased on me and is not sure why. I can't understand this situation For example, in a class he taught, there were 5 students in that class. He gave everyone an A except he gave me a B. I have no idea why really, and he tells me I'm lucky I got that instead of a C. He really has this impression as though I don't work I guess because I can't pay attention in class. It's not something I do on purpose, I just literally can't do it. I have tried for years, and that's why I learned to teach myself from books. In that particular class, I worked just as hard if not harder than everyone else. I am still annoyed over that situation. But I don't think he's doing it to be a dick, I think he just really doesn't see how hard I am working. Another problem is that I am not well spoken at all. I have a very difficult time "translating" the thoughts in my mind to spoken words, so I often sound very stupid/like I don't know what I'm talking about when giving presentations/talking with people. I don't know why it is this way for me, but it's like a part of my brain short circuits and I can't communicate thoughts that are perfectly clear in my mind. I can't blame anyone else for not understanding this, I guess. It probably appears like I don't know shit all and I haven't done any work

I hope I didn't seem annoying in my post or like I was disregarding what you have had to say. I am just trying to explain a bit more how this is a tad difficult situation.

Edited April 14, 2011 by notgoingwell

[Bison_PhD]

It seems that at this point you have 2 difficult options. 1) Stay with your adviser, do what he says and get your MA with little to research to show for it, but save your social circle. OR 2) Transfer advisers, which may or may not cause waves in your social group, stay a year or more longer and get what you want out of your MA. They are both crappy options, but if it were me I'd go with #2 every time. Good luck, let us know what you decide.

[notgoingwell]

Hey thanks both of you for the advice. I think I am going to switch advisers. I didn't want to do this because I thought it would be kind of disloyal, but I really have no other options. If my friends are real friends, they will understand me. If not, I guess better to find out anyhow!!!

thanks for letting me come on here and blow off some steam, it helped so much!

EDIT: I actually feel worse for my friend, the only PhD student working with him. She left her entire family, culture, country behind to come and study with him. A year later and she has nothing to show with it. They never meet, they never work. She requested him at the beginning of the semester, can they please meet at least once a week. Nothing. I feel really bad for her because she gave up literally everything to come to this country and I want things to work well for her. I don't think he realizes this impacts people I dunno.

Edited April 14, 2011 by notgoingwell

[wtncffts]

Well, I guess I have a little different take on this. I'm not taking the advisor's side; I agree that he seems like a bad advisor, especially about the inability to meet and discuss. But, and I hate to say it, it does seem like maybe you just weren't cut out for this particular program or field. It troubles me that you say you can't come up with a feasible research project without your advisor essentially giving it to you. Perhaps your field is so technical that getting a handle on a few outstanding research questions is very difficult; if so, I sympathize. Still, it points to a fundamental lack of knowledge about the state and direction of the discipline. I don't think your learning habits have anything to do with anything. If you learn best from reading, I don't see why you can't muster up research ideas from looking at recent journal articles and books.

I'm all for switching advisors in this situation, but you can't expect someone else to do your work. I have to disagree with the above assertion that you wouldn't have been admitted if you had the ability and research chops; we all know that's self-evidently false. It happens all the time. Sorry to sound so harsh. As I said, the advisor is certainly not in the right here, but my view is you have to take some initiative for yourself. If you can't come up with a reasonable line of research on your own, perhaps the field isn't for you.

[Eigen]

I actually feel worse for my friend, the only PhD student working with him. She left her entire family, culture, country behind to come and study with him. A year later and she has nothing to show with it. They never meet, they never work. She requested him at the beginning of the semester, can they please meet at least once a week. Nothing. I feel really bad for her because she gave up literally everything to come to this country and I want things to work well for her. I don't think he realizes this impacts people I dunno.

In my field, if your advisor is very well known it is common to meet with them only every few months- I know some students that only get to talk with their advisor once a semester.

I think a lot depends on the PI- some want their students to be very self directed (as yours does) and some are a lot more hands on. In the end, though, I think most are of the opinion that within the broad areas of research done in the group/that others are working on, a thesis should be primarily the result of the students innovation.

That said, it does seem like switching to another advisor might work best for you.

[Usmivka]

I have to disagree with the above assertion that you wouldn't have been admitted if you had the ability and research chops; we all know that's self-evidently false. It happens all the time. Sorry to sound so harsh.

This may be true in the social sciences, but in engineering and natural science programs (in which I will include CS) which pay for all there students this does not "happen all the time." I've worked or studied at an R1 university for nearly a decade, working in three large natural science/physical science programs. I know anecdote is the worst form of evidence, but I can count on one hand the number of occasions during that time that a grad student has dropped out of any of those programs because of inability to conduct research. The school has to invest way too much money in a student to risk that as a regular occurrence.

From what has been presented it seems like this students major failing was in not switching advisers as soon as he realized a more hands on approach was needed.

Also, I agree with Eigen's statement about thesis work, and did not intend to say your adviser should hand you a thesis on a platter. My thoughts are more along the lines that they should help you explore what some questions/problems in your field are so that you can think of ways to tackle them.

[notgoingwell]

Well, I guess I have a little different take on this. I'm not taking the advisor's side; I agree that he seems like a bad advisor, especially about the inability to meet and discuss. But, and I hate to say it, it does seem like maybe you just weren't cut out for this particular program or field. It troubles me that you say you can't come up with a feasible research project without your advisor essentially giving it to you. Perhaps your field is so technical that getting a handle on a few outstanding research questions is very difficult; if so, I sympathize. Still, it points to a fundamental lack of knowledge about the state and direction of the discipline. I don't think your learning habits have anything to do with anything. If you learn best from reading, I don't see why you can't muster up research ideas from looking at recent journal articles and books.

I'm all for switching advisors in this situation, but you can't expect someone else to do your work. I have to disagree with the above assertion that you wouldn't have been admitted if you had the ability and research chops; we all know that's self-evidently false. It happens all the time. Sorry to sound so harsh. As I said, the advisor is certainly not in the right here, but my view is you have to take some initiative for yourself. If you can't come up with a reasonable line of research on your own, perhaps the field isn't for you.

This is actually what I thought for quite some time, and I still do think this as well. I think the problem is the subfield of CS we are working in is kind of specialized. I do read through the journals, and I do come up with ideas, and I get them started, but then I feel like I don't really know where to go with it, or I am not sure it's significant enough, etc. so I just abandon the idea entirely. I think the only real thing I want from him is just the insight into our field, like saying "this is useful" or "why not take it in this direction" or "why not explore this". I don't want him to outright give me a research idea, I just want some direction. And I know he can give it, because the few times we meet it helps tremendously.

I will also admit though that, yeah, I have absolutely no interest in this particular field. I didn't realize it until I began my graduate program. I really despise it, so actually combing through journals is like pulling teeth for me. The results bore me, the whole damn field bores me. It's really hard for me to just so excited about it that I can come up with all these brilliant ideas. I think the research I worked on before, I was so passionate about it, so it was a different story. Anyway, that's why I'm leaving this field and going back to mathematics to pursue my PhD there.

And I would completely understand him never having any time to spare if it were actually the case. That's really the only thing that makes it frustrating to work for him. He only has one student that works under him. He cancels class constantly, I've been in his classes where he cuts nearly one class a week. I just don't get what he does with his time. On the rare times he comes to meet me or the PhD student, usually he just ends up shooting the shit for an hour and a half, telling stories, etc. then after going on for about an hour, he looks at his watch and says "oh hey I gotta go!!!" Like I said, a great friend, but not what I want in an adviser I think. I swear, he will say he has no time to meet with me or the PhD student, but if I ask to go play tennis he'll do it at the drop of a dime. I don't get it

But again I am kind of confused. So are thesis ideas usually completely from the student themselves? Do the professors usually help in making the ideas? I have no idea. That's one of the reasons I wanted to come on here was to find out. And it seems there is still some varying opinion on this :/

EDIT: Also, I didn't mean to write any of these posts to say anything bad about my prof. LIke I said he's a dear friend and a brilliant scientist. But his constant criticism is definitely aggitating, as well as the complete inability to meet with him ever.

Edited April 14, 2011 by notgoingwell

[Eigen]

Your thesis/dissertation is *your* contribution to your field, not your advisors.

Guidance is expected, but not hand holding/leading, in my opinion.

Most of my peers and I spend a ton of time combing through journals... You find something, try it- if it works, great. If not, you figure out why it didn't work, and go back into the literature to figure out workarounds.

From what you say, it's possible he's not frustrated with the lack of ideas, but with the fact that you give up on them if they don't work. Heck, it's not unusual for us to bang our heads against the wall for months trying different things until something works- that's what research is all about!

[notgoingwell]

Your thesis/dissertation is *your* contribution to your field, not your advisors.

Guidance is expected, but not hand holding/leading, in my opinion.

Most of my peers and I spend a ton of time combing through journals... You find something, try it- if it works, great. If not, you figure out why it didn't work, and go back into the literature to figure out workarounds.

From what you say, it's possible he's not frustrated with the lack of ideas, but with the fact that you give up on them if they don't work. Heck, it's not unusual for us to bang our heads against the wall for months trying different things until something works- that's what research is all about!

thanks. I really don't want him to give me ideas or to hand hold like you said, I really don't. My goal coming into this program was to make my own contribution.

You are right I think he is frustrated that I give up. I think I should have actually just left this program long back. I absolutely hate the field I discovered, and so it's just torture to come up with ideas. I just have absolutely no interest. I just want to get done and head back to math.

Thanks for all the advice, it has really helped me. I feel bad for saying bad about my prof, as I don't want to give any ill impression on him. I was just frustrated

[wtncffts]

OK, I certainly understand better your situation, and I sympathize with your being in a program you don't want to be in, but feel like you have to finish. One thing I might suggest is to ask other experts about your ideas, whether at your own school or externally. In this day and age, there's nothing constraining you from e-mailing someone whose research you find interesting and asking them about it and testing out your own ideas. Look for help wherever you can find it.

[Arcadian]

This man is a close friend, and not only is he a close friend, but all of my other close friends are close friends with him (we are all in the same social circle as I said and it is very tight knit). It would really wreck not only y friendship with him, but pretty much every close friendship in my life. He is a shitty adviser, I realize now, but he has done so much for me.

What is your definition of a "close friend"? It must be radically different from mine. My definition of a close friend is someone who I can call, and they will answer at least 75% of the time - and someone who I can invite to hang out at my place, talk about anything, and laugh about anything together.

More importantly, a "close friend" is someone who wouldn't be a dick on a consistent basis. I'm not saying that's what your adviser is doing, but it kinda sounds like it.

Also, a close friend would understand that you don't like working with him. He would accept that, and continue to be your friend. It certainly wouldn't wreck a true friendship.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Arcadian

[beanbagchairs]

I dont think he has done any "advising" for you. Good supervisor wont tell you what to do, but he/she will at least give you direction. I dont think he has done any of that. If I were you, I'd switch professor and do another thesis with said professor.

Dont take it out on the entire field because one bad experience with a professor. I've never met a CS person that does not wish he/she is stronger in math. You have an edge there. That being said, you need to graduate soon from that institution and choose another for further degree. Staying in that environment will hurt your confidence, motivation, etc.

[timuralp]

I don't know exactly which subfield of computer science you are in, but I do understand that it's not as easy as taking something out of a conference paper and implementing it. For one, it's not exactly "research". There is the option of going after the "future work" (also known as, "stuff we didn't get to and don't intend to do"), but in certain subfields the amount of effort required to get to the point where you can actually implement/test that future work is significant, especially as most papers don't come with any source code.

My suggestion would be to go through the top conferences in your subfield for the past 2-3 years. Read the titles of all papers; next, read the abstracts of ones that seem interesting; finally, read the actual papers that seem promising. Make a list of any ideas you come up with from reading those (preferably, 5-7 ideas or more). Try to talk to someone else in the same subfield (other grad students are great, especially more senior, as well as any faculty) and get a sense for whether the idea is 1. research-y enough, 2. not impossible, 3. has not been beaten to death by others. Ideally, at the end you have some idea of how to proceed with the implementation and where it could be submitted. A single paper should be enough for an MS thesis. Hope that helps in terms of coming up with something.

[IRdreams]

The conference paper suggestion is a great one. When I am struggling, I also peruse syllabuses at other universities and see what the junior faculty have added when they teach the course. I actually generally make this habit regardless as it helps a lot with directing a lit review.