Applying for PhD just to get Masters for FREE

[barber5]

Firstly, to the specifics, frankly President you come off as a bit thick and I don't expect this dilemma will actually materialize for you because I don't think you'll get into any PhD programs that will offer you funding.

Now, generally, I would say this is not a very ethical or practically wise thing to do. The ethical pitfalls are obvious and have been discussed. Practically, as someone else mentioned, if you'd like to get an MS and are already employed, many companies will provide funding for you to get a master's degree if you appear to have some talent

[csperson]

Hey guys, I realize applying for PHD just to get a free MS is an unethical thing to do, and I wouldn't do it myself.

But, do you guys realize a large number of people are already doing this? many of my friends did this.

In a way, this is a common thing.

Edited July 11, 2011 by csperson

[Eigen]

Hey guys, I realize applying for PHD just to get a free MS is an unethical thing to do, and I wouldn't do it myself.

But, do you guys realize a large number of people are already doing this? many of my friends did this.

In a way, this is a common thing.

On the flip side, I know several people that tried this... And it backfired on them. Stipends pulled, damaged contacts, and much lengthened MS degree.

[chaospaladin]

At Princeton, it costs about $80,000 a year to fund a single graduate student. I can safely say I have never stolen that much.

Why does Princeton spend so much on each graduate student?

[OH YEAH]

Why does Princeton spend so much on each graduate student?

I think that sort of thing is usual. Our stipends are around ~33k. The university charges half tuition (which is silly, but whatever) to our advisers, which is ~18k or so? Then there is summer support, travel, conference fees, "computing fees", and a generic "overhead" on every grant...

Edited July 12, 2011 by OH YEAH

[chaospaladin]

What measures do PhD programs do to prevent people from cheating them like this? Why not just get rid of the MS consolation prize so that a student either gets the PhD or no PhD?

[BKMD]

Let me add some contrast to this discussion. This past admissions season, our school had an applicant who was very qualified but not sure if she even wanted to go to grad school. She was at the top of the pile, and we recruited her very heavily, even though she was obviously a high risk student (in terms of dropping out early). If you are desired enough, then they might not care so much.

The simple fact is that a ton of PhD students drop out. The company I work at is full of PhD drop-outs, not because they planned to leave with a free MS, but because they simply realized it wasn't for them and decided to stay after doing an internship. It happens. It may not cost the schools as much as some people have suggested, because stipend funds usually come out of larger government grants, and treating the tuition waiver as part of the cost isn't quite the same when you're talking about students who would never have paid it to begin with.

That being said, it seems unlikely that someone who's not qualified to have their employer pay for a MS could get into a PhD program. You also seem to lack some basic understanding of the PhD process which means you won't get in.

I'll also note that funding is often guaranteed only on a year to year basis. If they suspect they are being conned, then your funding will get cut off, you'll leave without a new degree, and you'll have wasted a year of your life.

And I don't need to note the ethics because you don't care.

[OH YEAH]

and treating the tuition waiver as part of the cost isn't quite the same when you're talking about students who would never have paid it to begin with.

I don't think this is quite right. I know at Princeton graduate students get charged half tuition, even if they are only taking "dissertation credits". The students don't have to pay it, but someone does: your adviser's grant. Large government grants don't pay as much as you think, because of overhead: at MIT it is over 50% ,at Princeton it is 62%. I quote:

"So a CAREER grant for 5 years at $500K (which is standard for CAREER) funds a SINGLE grad student per year, plus $20-25K left over for (1) conference travel, (2) misc (including student laptop, etc.), and (3) 1-1.5 month of PI salary." Here is another:

"Of the $580,000 award, more than half is immediately taken by MIT as overhead tax, where it goes toward funding MIT operations in general. Of what remains, most goes toward funding

(a) my three PhD students (yes, they apply for and sometimes get their own stipends, but those are harder and harder to come by),

( a postdoc who’ll be starting with us next fall, and

© my summer salary (which, following the standard practice, MIT doesn’t pay)."

[chaospaladin]

How would a PI know that a student would try to leave with a free MS?

[ktel]

How would a PI know that a student would try to leave with a free MS?

They wouldn't necessarily know. Although I personally don't think I could pull of looking like a genuine PhD student if I knew I was going to leave after my MS. Perhaps someone with less of a conscience could do it, but not me.

[csperson]

Let me add some contrast to this discussion. This past admissions season, our school had an applicant who was very qualified but not sure if she even wanted to go to grad school. She was at the top of the pile, and we recruited her very heavily, even though she was obviously a high risk student (in terms of dropping out early). If you are desired enough, then they might not care so much.

The simple fact is that a ton of PhD students drop out. The company I work at is full of PhD drop-outs, not because they planned to leave with a free MS, but because they simply realized it wasn't for them and decided to stay after doing an internship. It happens. It may not cost the schools as much as some people have suggested, because stipend funds usually come out of larger government grants, and treating the tuition waiver as part of the cost isn't quite the same when you're talking about students who would never have paid it to begin with.

That being said, it seems unlikely that someone who's not qualified to have their employer pay for a MS could get into a PhD program. You also seem to lack some basic understanding of the PhD process which means you won't get in.

I'll also note that funding is often guaranteed only on a year to year basis. If they suspect they are being conned, then your funding will get cut off, you'll leave without a new degree, and you'll have wasted a year of your life.

And I don't need to note the ethics because you don't care.

Why do you say this person is high-risk (dropping out early)? I'm very curious

[Two Espressos]

You have no right to judge unless you yourself have not made a single ethical compromise.

This is outright terrible reasoning, no matter which way you look at it. It's like a grossly misinterpreted version of "let he without sin cast the first stone."

I feel sorry for any program that admits you.

[ZeeMore21]

Someone this idiotic and evil isn't getting into any doctoral program.

[stackoverflow]

I think there is no way that you are going to change your mind, but even if you do end up pulling this off, how to you intend to explain to your prospective employers that you cannot produce a recommendation from any of your Masters advisors? It's going to be extremely easy to see through your intentions, unless you are really as maniacal as you sound. It's probably not that easy to produce the feelings that a struggling PhD student exhibits when they're considering dropping out.

[Amogh]

I think there is no way that you are going to change your mind, but even if you do end up pulling this off, how to you intend to explain to your prospective employers that you cannot produce a recommendation from any of your Masters advisors? It's going to be extremely easy to see through your intentions, unless you are really as maniacal as you sound. It's probably not that easy to produce the feelings that a struggling PhD student exhibits when they're considering dropping out.

Bang on i'd say. Bang on.

[Mal83]

See even if we leave the unethical, unfair, risky, and deceitful parts out of this whole equation, there's still the idea that you were ridiculous enough to actually not only post your plan on an internet grad school forum, but to boast and brag about it like no one has ever thought of it before. Sure, the users on this site are pretty anonymous, but you just never know who anyone really is, there are plenty of people here who are at the same school. There are all of those "meet and greet" threads and even in the field specific ones, you find out that at least a handful of people are going to the same schools. Someone just might put two and two together if you get cocky and divulge too much information, maybe it's not likely, but again there's always that possibility, because once it's out there, it's out there. If you're planning on lying, cheating, and stealing, at the very least be smart enough to keep it to yourself so no one can drudge up the "I'm going to cheat the system and be damn proud of it" thread you callously posted and get you into trouble. I'm not quite sure if you've picked up on the disgust factor that almost everyone has expressed, but the fact that you're trying to bring us around to this by having us think about you spending the money you'll save at a nice restaurant is disgusting. And if you have such little regard for academia you have no place even thinking about taking up space in any program.

[Amogh]

See even if we leave the unethical, unfair, risky, and deceitful parts out of this whole equation, there's still the idea that you were ridiculous enough to actually not only post your plan on an internet grad school forum, but to boast and brag about it like no one has ever thought of it before. Sure, the users on this site are pretty anonymous, but you just never know who anyone really is, there are plenty of people here who are at the same school. There are all of those "meet and greet" threads and even in the field specific ones, you find out that at least a handful of people are going to the same schools. Someone just might put two and two together if you get cocky and divulge too much information, maybe it's not likely, but again there's always that possibility, because once it's out there, it's out there. If you're planning on lying, cheating, and stealing, at the very least be smart enough to keep it to yourself so no one can drudge up the "I'm going to cheat the system and be damn proud of it" thread you callously posted and get you into trouble. I'm not quite sure if you've picked up on the disgust factor that almost everyone has expressed, but the fact that you're trying to bring us around to this by having us think about you spending the money you'll save at a nice restaurant is disgusting. And if you have such little regard for academia you have no place even thinking about taking up space in any program.

The issue with this guy is that he thinks it's criminal that universities charge for MS degrees. I mean those degrees are essentially cash cows for both the university and the recipients. lol.

[Mal83]

The issue with this guy is that he thinks it's criminal that universities charge for MS degrees. I mean those degrees are essentially cash cows for both the university and the recipients. lol.

Yeah, I did pick up on that, and he may have a point there, however he doesn't need an advanced degree from a very expensive school..or does he even need one at all to make a living in his field? So going to grad school is probably not something that he has to do, it's his choice to go and if he chooses to do so then he has to pay for it like everyone else if the funding doesn't come in. But proudly declaring that you're going to intentionally cheat in a huge way is just not smart, as well as of course unethical. This isn't some scheme to "stick it to the man," keep a few bucks from the IRS, or tell a few white lies in a job interview, this is taking an incredible amount of funding away from someone who really plans on pursuing that Ph.D, this is conning an entire department into thinking he's there for one reason when his intentions are totally different, and it's stealing the time and investment from the school, professors, and advisers. If you know you only want and need a Master's then stay out of the ph.D arena, there are too few spots for someone to essentially steal one from an honest applicant. But the other point I was trying to make was that this is something that you keep to yourself so that there's no "evidence" of the plan to deceive, then you know for certain that no one would be the wiser, it was stupid to go on and on about it so callously. Sure it's pretty anonymous around here, but like I said, you just never know and why risk it? And if you can't even refrain from posting about on the internet before you're actually doing it then how can you keep up the act for a good 2 years?

[anacron]

Even if the OP got admitted where would he/she find the time to do research?

Assuming an RAship is awarded, a full course load (in this case an overload to finish in 1 year) and a full time software development job where will the OP find time to make a significant contribution to research without the PI seeing the lack of motivation and progress?

Also wouldn't there be red flags when they see a PhD student taking course which go towards a master's degree?

I have looked through several master's vs PhD curriculums and I find that most schools have different requirements. The PhD courses have more flexibility and are chosen based on research area while the master's courses are more rigid. There are even some seminar requirements (PhD only) at higher ranked schools.

It would be very hard to con the department since your course list would betray your intentions (especially if the course requirements differ).

Assuming a TAship is awarded, it becomes even harder since you have a full course load/overload, a full time development job, TA'ing a class AND research with your advisor... So there really is no opportunity for you to juggle all of these things, in addition to hiding the fact that you are not here for the PhD. Something is going to suffer and given your posts, it will be the research. Since a PhD is all about research, you tell me whether this is a give away or not... in fact its almost too easy to spot the signs. (I should probably mention that professors aren't stupid)

I should also mention that you would need write convincing SOPs talking about past research experiences and what work you'd like to do, just to get in..

You might get away with this at smaller institutions but I doubt you'd be able to pull this off at MIT,UCB,UIUC, etc. where PhD positions are so competitive and prestigious.

[Amogh]

Even if the OP got admitted where would he/she find the time to do research?

Assuming an RAship is awarded, a full course load (in this case an overload to finish in 1 year) and a full time software development job where will the OP find time to make a significant contribution to research without the PI seeing the lack of motivation and progress?

Also wouldn't there be red flags when they see a PhD student taking course which go towards a master's degree?

I have looked through several master's vs PhD curriculums and I find that most schools have different requirements. The PhD courses have more flexibility and are chosen based on research area while the master's courses are more rigid. There are even some seminar requirements (PhD only) at higher ranked schools.

It would be very hard to con the department since your course list would betray your intentions (especially if the course requirements differ).

Assuming a TAship is awarded, it becomes even harder since you have a full course load/overload, a full time development job, TA'ing a class AND research with your advisor... So there really is no opportunity for you to juggle all of these things, in addition to hiding the fact that you are not here for the PhD. Something is going to suffer and given your posts, it will be the research. Since a PhD is all about research, you tell me whether this is a give away or not... in fact its almost too easy to spot the signs. (I should probably mention that professors aren't stupid)

I should also mention that you would need write convincing SOPs talking about past research experiences and what work you'd like to do, just to get in..

You might get away with this at smaller institutions but I doubt you'd be able to pull this off at MIT,UCB,UIUC, etc. where PhD positions are so competitive and prestigious.

Well said. ..

[long_time_lurker]

President, as long as you do your TA'ing or whatever the school makes you do during your studies, you're doing nothing wrong. No one signs a blood oath saying he is going to finish his program. Many people don't finish programs for one reason or another, including that they find a job. So leaving with your MS is nothing to feel bad about, and there is nothing unethical about it either. You are not "stealing someone else's spot" in a program, that's rubbish; YOU earned the spot by having a superior application. It is yours to utilize as you see fit.

[barber5]

President, as long as you do your TA'ing or whatever the school makes you do during your studies, you're doing nothing wrong. No one signs a blood oath saying he is going to finish his program. Many people don't finish programs for one reason or another, including that they find a job. So leaving with your MS is nothing to feel bad about, and there is nothing unethical about it either. You are not "stealing someone else's spot" in a program, that's rubbish; YOU earned the spot by having a superior application. It is yours to utilize as you see fit.

You're right, unless he indicates that he has every intention of staying in the program in his SOP either directly or indirectly ("I'm really fascinated by X and want to research it") and you may be wrong anyway since one could argue it's best to be forthright in your SOP.

To have earned a spot with a misleading superior application is not to have earned the spot at all. If I fake my letters of recommendation will I have earned the spot that my superior application has gotten me? No.

And even though this joker probably won't be able to fool any admissions committees into admitting him anywhere, if he did, it won't be because he's "earned" a spot that he has the rights to dispose of however he likes.

[long_time_lurker]

... I'm not quite sure if you've picked up on the disgust factor that almost everyone has expressed, but the fact that you're trying to bring us around to this by having us think about you spending the money you'll save at a nice restaurant is disgusting. And if you have such little regard for academia you have no place even thinking about taking up space in any program.

Plenty of people go to school to improve their career opportunities; it's not as if the only reason to get a PhD is to work in academia. Even my advisors have told me that many folks leave as ABD's when they are offered jobs, because not many people pass up 80 to 100K a year just to do a dissertation to earn the PhD.

Also why is it disgusting for someone to spend money that he saved at nice restaurants or anywhere else for that matter? We're still a capitalist country, and people go where they get the best deals. If this guy can get his school paid for, good for him. If he wants to blow it on eating out, or even hookers and drugs, good for him.

[long_time_lurker]

You're right, unless he indicates that he has every intention of staying in the program in his SOP either directly or indirectly ("I'm really fascinated by X and want to research it") and you may be wrong anyway since one could argue it's best to be forthright in your SOP.

To have earned a spot with a misleading superior application is not to have earned the spot at all. If I fake my letters of recommendation will I have earned the spot that my superior application has gotten me? No.

I think this is the most compelling argument I have seen. You would have to consider the SOP the same as qualifications (GRE, transcripts, letters), and I'm not sure I buy that. However I think you're on to something, where the OP should just mention his interest in working in industry right off the bat which would serve both his and the uni's purposes as well. Then, no red flags will be raised as to why his interests (including internships and the like) are centered on industry-specific knowledge and/or research.

A counter-argument would be that there are plenty of folks who really are fascinated by subject X and working with Dr. Z, but for various reasons - academic, personal (spouse, etc.), career (getting hired only a couple of years into the program) - they change their minds later. I don't think that makes them bad or even people who did not fulfill their commitments.

[Eigen]

If he applies for a PhD position... And he only intends to do a Masters.... He's lying on his application from the start.

If he applied for one of the MS positions, it wouldn't be a problem- but otherwise, he's directly lying in his intent to stay through to the PhD. If something changes down the road that forces someone out/causes them to leave graduate school, the intent in the application was still to finish.

Our OP here, on the other hand, never has any intention of getting a PhD, yet he's applying as if he does to improve the strength of his application and make it more likely that he will get funding. He's not competing on the same ground as anyone else, he's lying in order to get in.

As for the SoP being as important as the other application materials.... The SoP and Letters are probably the most important parts of the application- GPA and GRE scores are formalities or things that are used to easily cut down the number of applications.