Foreign degree hurt my chances in academia in USA?

[abc123xtc]

I am a US student looking to go to graduate school abroad. I have been told by some people that having a non-US degree will hurt my chances of becoming a professor in the US. However, many US universities that I have looked at have professors with non-US degrees. Would having a foreign degree necessarily hurt my chances? This is assuming that I will have stellar research experience, publications, etc by the time I receive my PhD. I am mostly looking at universities in the UK and Canada.

[orangeMan]

I can only tell you about the UK/US situation. I think it depends on where you do your PhD and where you do your postdoc fellowship. There are only 5 competitive universities in the UK, Cambridge, Imperial College, London School of Economics, Oxford and University College London. My friend who finished a PhD at Oxford did his fellowship at Stanford (in sciences) and another at Brown (social sciences). Some from London School of Economics (since you are doing Sociology) have received a fellowship offer from respectable US universities. I don't know (or have heard of) anyone who have received the Harvard postdoc (the 3 year thing) from UK schools.

[orangeMan]

Just to add a few things.

- there are some PhDs from the 5 universities who can't even get a postdoc fellowship at less established universities.

- Oxford PhD (or DPhi) is different from others. There are no taught elements at all. If you fail your a DPhi or MLitt, you fail the whole degree (so you wasted 2 - 3 years). The pass rate is even lower at Oxford (see below).

- a UK PhD with MRes or MPhi (1 + 3 year or 2 + 2 at some) allows you to exit the program with a masters degree. Academic career isn't for everyone. You might change your mind.

- the pass rate in the UK (those who successfully complete a PhD/those who enter the program) is low. At some university, this is close to 60%! 2 in 5 fail or quit!

- PhD programs are less regulated in UK universities, Some supervisors want to see you every week and even help you secure a postdoc position once you complete the program, while others only want to see you once a term (or semester), read your paper from time to time and say "yeah, it's good." No constructive advices!

[abc123xtc]

Thanks for your perspective! I've had a couple of people tell me that going abroad could hurt my chances of becoming a professor, but they never explains how or why. Now I understand.

[BruceWayne24]

There are only 5 competitive universities in the UK, Cambridge, Imperial College, London School of Economics, Oxford and University College London

Sorry, but no. These are certainly very good universities, but it also depends on what you study. It's like saying that only Harvard, Princeton and Yale are competive universities in the US...

Apart from UCL, none of these even offer what I want to study, so why should I go there? And the people in my field know this. When you do a PhD, the important thing is not necessarily WHERE you do it, but with WHOM.

I don't think that doing your PhD abroad will be the reason you will not get a professorship in the US, provided that look carefully which university would suit you and your interests best.

[Seeking]

For Sociology, If you study at Cambridge, SOAS (if you are interested in Asian/African studies that is), Oxford, UCL, King's College, Imperial College, LSE, University of British Columbia or University of Toronto and follow it up with a research and teaching Postdoc in the US, I guess you should do fine in a US teaching job.

A PhD from any other non-US university or even from a low-ranked US university would be taking a risk.

This is because it's the stamp on your degree and your supervisor's influence that matter more in the academia than the actual quality of your research.

It is unfortunate and this is not the way academic world should run, but this is how it runs.

So, I would suggest you should not gamble with your future prospects.

[orangeMan]

To add to Seeking's post above.

It is not easy to get into those universities (maybe easier than getting into the most competitive ones in the US) and successfully complete the graduate program. And 3/4 years is such a long time. I can tell you what I think people should consider when thinking about going abroad to study.

Please choose your university/institution taking into consideration,

a. your GPA: Can you get in?

b. the living cost: Can you afford it? London is a very expensive town. With £400 a month, you probably get the smallest room with a single bed in a shared flat/house.

c. culture of university: If you go to a less established university abroad, you might be the only American there. Are there societies or clubs that you want to join?

d. personality of your supervisor(s): Once accepted, you can call/email them. Do they return your emails within 48 hours?

e. what the current students say about your department: How many students per program? How are you going to be assessed? Please read negative reviews. There is no point in reading positive reviews. You can read positive reviews on the university's website.

[Loimographia]

There's actually a good thread in the History forum addressing some of the risks of getting your PhD in the UK with hopes of teaching in the US (it's also addressed in the "2012 Applicant Chit Chat" thread, but you'd have to wade through 40+ pages of discussion. If you want to look for it, I think it's somewhere around pg. 34. . . ).

To summarize some of the concerns discussed, the biggest issue can be that UK PhDs rarely require or encourage teaching experience among their grad students because academia in Europe is much more focused on publishing books than teaching, whereas teaching experience is much more common among US grads (it's mentioned that Princeton no longer requires that its students teach, but many volunteer to do so anyway). This means you might face an uphill battle of convincing potential employers that you have the necessary experience to teach in the U.S. There's also the question of networking, a crucial aspect of academia: attending a UK school will mean your professors will help you network -- with UK/Europe academics. Making the transition back to the U.S. may mean that you'll have to work doubly hard to build new connections with academics "across the pond." With jobs in academia as scarce as they are these days, it's risky to deliberately cripple yourself in this way. "Stellar research experience and publications" won't help compensate for teaching, because it's to be assumed that the U.S. PhDs will have the same. Mind you, most of the people discussing the issue are those in History departments, so your mileage may vary, but I still think some of it is applicable across disciplines.

All this is not to say that you're doomed if you go to school in the UK, but you should definitely be aware of the differences between US and UK degrees.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Loimographia

[abc123xtc]

To be honest, I definitely do not have the grades to get into Oxford, Cambridge, or any USA equivalent. I actually would love to stay in Europe after my PhD to teach if I can, but my family is convinced I'll want to move back to the States after a stint in Europe, so I kind of want to keep options open here. Part of the reason I want to get my PhD abroad is because my research interest is rather specific, and there aren't a lot of professors I could work with in the US. Do I do what's best for my research and hope it pays off or stay here?

Also, I want to thank you all for giving me all of this information and insight.

[abc123xtc]

I just got accepted at Durham University for Masters by Research. Would getting my master's abroad and a PhD in the USA be okay career-wise? I obviously need to do more research on this...

[nehs]

I don't have as detailed answers ,which are great answers. as you have got here from fellow members. However, I can tell you that I am in a grad porgram(master's) and I have many professors in my Dept who have got PhD's from non- US universities(Europe, Canada, Asia). They are doing fine.

But how hard it was for them to land the first academia job - we wil never know

[abc123xtc]

It's reassuring to know they're doing fine though! Thanks.

[nehs]

Yes, I can point you to their websites(if they have one) , if you like. Send me a PM if you want.

any way good luck

[jessicala]

I just got an acceptance to King's College London's MA program for Critical Methodologies in the Department of French. I'm very happy about it because a master's degree is necessary for me at this point, but I am ultimately looking to move towards Phd. Does anyone how a UK MA degree would look like to an admissions committee when applying to US Phd programs? I know that King's and its French Department is fairly well regarded in the UK, but I have no clue what it would mean for me in the future if I decide to go there. I would really appreciate any thoughts on the program or my situation

[turtles]

I just got an acceptance to King's College London's MA program for Critical Methodologies in the Department of French. I'm very happy about it because a master's degree is necessary for me at this point, but I am ultimately looking to move towards Phd. Does anyone how a UK MA degree would look like to an admissions committee when applying to US Phd programs? I know that King's and its French Department is fairly well regarded in the UK, but I have no clue what it would mean for me in the future if I decide to go there. I would really appreciate any thoughts on the program or my situation

Are you planning on going directly from your MA to a PhD program? If so, there might be a problem with the timing because UK and US schools run on different schedules. I'm currently doing an MS in the UK and while I'll have provisional exam results in July, my thesis isn't due until September and my university says they won't release transcripts/proof that I've completed my MS until late-October or November. This can cause issues with many North American universities, because they want proof that you have a Master's before they let you start a PhD in September.

[antecedent]

I've been asking these questions around because I've been accepted to the taught M.Sc. in English Language at Edinburgh (the top UK institution for my field, interestingly) and I've heard an overwhelming amount of support for UK Masters applying to US PhDs. It may have to do with the departments a bit, but I've heard of English Masters and Linguistics Masters completing their degrees in the UK and then returning to the US to get into some of the best programs (MIT anyone?). I just asked this in the North America to UK livejournal thread, and I've also been PMing people from the board who did their degrees abroad and talking to them about it.

One way of determining this, and I plan to ask for this in a few weeks myself, is asking someone in the department for a placement record if they have it. Where do successful students end up?

ETA: Yes some of the success stories I've heard have come out of Cambridge or UCL, but others have been from outside the big five such as the University of Aberystwyth and the University of Warwick. I think it all comes back to is the British school you're applying to strong in the area where you want to pursue your PhD? If so you should be fine.

Edited March 2, 2012 by antecedant

[maeisenb]

Are you planning on going directly from your MA to a PhD program? If so, there might be a problem with the timing because UK and US schools run on different schedules. I'm currently doing an MS in the UK and while I'll have provisional exam results in July, my thesis isn't due until September and my university says they won't release transcripts/proof that I've completed my MS until late-October or November. This can cause issues with many North American universities, because they want proof that you have a Master's before they let you start a PhD in September.

I just went through this last fall and it can be a pain, but definitely doable and most programs in the US have a few people that go through this every year so they know the deal (on what the grades mean, timing, etc.).

You might have trouble getting a copy of your official transcript in time (our final grades were not released until December 10 or so), in which case you might have to put it together as a few different documents. So I had: a cover note explaining the situation, an official enrollment form with my ID number highlighted, a list of enrolled classes (again with my ID noted), a PDF we were sent that listed ID numbers and final marks (again highlighted to show who I was), and a screen shot of my final grades. I then uploaded all of that as my "transcript" and for any places with earlier deadlines made sure to send them that ASAP. So a pain, but can be done.

[aberrant]

TL;DR above responses. But I have been told by a couple professors that getting into academia in the U.S. with a foreign degree is only difficult because most of the graduate programs in UK and Canada does not require TA'ing. Lack of any teaching experience will hurt your application as an assistant professor (assuming you will not be a TA as a post-doc). Therefore, you shouldn't have much problems landing a job in academia if you have teaching experience anytime during your graduate studies and post-doc training - on top of your assumptions.

[psychopath]

Hello Jessicala,

I have also got into the same program at Kings. Do you have any idea about the career prospects for this degree?