What if nobody accepts me?

[Supernovasky]

I got some amazing advice in this thread. Thank you so much Chuck. I'm going to look into ALL of what you just said tonight and this weekend. I didn't consider going on a job search as well as a PhD search. I just assumed that with only an undergraduate degree, most research organizations wouldn't even look at me.

I will also apply to some MA programs. I'd love to find the kind of professors you are talking about that are "dying to be noticed by people like me."

[Darth.Vegan]

Supernovasky, I once heard from a professor at Columbia who told me that the GRE is the first factor graduate committees consider. So, the better your GRE score the more options you have. So again I say try to get your scores around 1400 if possible. Just to be safe.

That just makes me not want to apply to Columbia. Getting a good score on a standardized test only means that you are good at taking standardized tests. If the professors at Columbia don't know that, that's pretty scary.

[socihealth]

I just want to echo the research experience can be so important! So masters, job searches, and even volunteer work at a local college in research is a GREAT application booster.

[svh]

That just makes me not want to apply to Columbia. Getting a good score on a standardized test only means that you are good at taking standardized tests. If the professors at Columbia don't know that, that's pretty scary.

Some places get so many applications that they need to do a prescreening process. Specifically, they might have a certain threshold for GPA and GRE, and if your numbers break that threshold, they'll actually look at your application. This is a messed up system, I know, but it's the reality. Some schools get 700 applications and take 10. How else would they do it?

[hobokennojokin]

That just makes me not want to apply to Columbia. Getting a good score on a standardized test only means that you are good at taking standardized tests. If the professors at Columbia don't know that, that's pretty scary.

I'm pretty sure any adcom in the country knows this. At the same time, it's an unfortunate reality with so many different types of factors pulling at the committee--university rankings, department prestige, etc-- all of which incorporate GRE scores of students into account. Not a huge factor, but a substantial one given its generalizability

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

To debunk the GRE score myth I received this as part of an e-mail conversation I had with the graduate coordinator of a top 20 university

"The committee looks at GRE scores, undergrad GPA (especially junior and senior year), social science coursework, relevant research experiences, methods background, writing ability, fit with our program's strengths, and other aspects of an applicant's profile. Put differently, we don't put too much weigh on the GREs or any single factor when making admission decisions. "

Sure, tippy tippy top programs (top 10s) are going to probably make cuts of 1300, 1400, but this program's site says students often have 1200+ and some have 1300+ (similar to UT's stats).

[Supernovasky]

I still do think I have a decent shot at Washington - Seattle (Because there are SO many professors there focused on quantiative methodology and quantitative sociology, on contrast to Austin's 2 professors focused on that), and Boulder (because their ranking is slightly lower, and I actually have a lot of experience in environmental work (I worked for Americorps for some time doing environmental work)). I actually emailed professors at Colorado - Boulder telling them though I focused on the quantitative side in my application, I wanted to let a select couple professors know that I was also VERY open to researching environmental sociology given my background.

Hopefully I'll get some responses from them.

[Supernovasky]

I'm trying to remain proactive in getting some sort of advancement in my education this year. I'm going to work on MA applications this weekend, I've emailed at least 8 professors to the schools that are still on the drawing board (a few, I would be EXTREMELY excited to work with), and I'm trying to stay abreast of their decisions processes.

We'll see how it all goes!

If I don't get accepted anywhere, I've got a wealth of info here to help me next time.

[Chuck]

I will also apply to some MA programs. I'd love to find the kind of professors you are talking about that are "dying to be noticed by people like me."

Even though you are just recently out of undergrad, you have a lot of interesting experience under your belt. I see the outlines of a fabulous SOP in your listing of background achievements. Being a great engineering student and then transitioning to and also excelling in educational/sociological research can help you stand out as someone who would contribute in valuable and unique ways to a graduate program. You need to coherently draw out your strengths and goals from that narrative. You're clearly a good student who is versatile, experienced, and (with your time off), worldly. These basic qualities encompass much of what grad programs are looking for. MA programs especially are looking for students who have "promise" but perhaps not as much research or coursework experience as PhD candidates. This is no fault of your own (hell, you squeezed a whole major into the last 2 years of your undergrad degree, that shows dedication!), but the fact is that PhD programs will be looking for a longer track record of commitment to the discipline. Now is a good time to point out that the PhD is a long, painful slog. You want to be sure that you get along with your advisor & are desperately in love with your topic. Hating your project can be academic and emotional agony many times worse than what you are experiencing now. If you at all feel as though you're still searching around for the specific topic that most compels you, an MA may be your best bet anyways. An MA allows you to expand your repertoire of skills, explore different sub-disciplines, get more research experience, and gain a much deeper and more confident sense of where you want to be with a PhD topic. You will also meet many future colleagues and benefit from their expertise before committing to an advisor you barely know and a project you think interests you.

I do think you'd make a great MA candidate. And it's certainly not true that most MA programs are unfunded (UChicago and Columbia being notorious exceptions). Look for public research universities that have ongoing government research grants in your area of interest. Believe it or not, there are RA-ships specifically set aside for master's students (so you won't be competing with PhD students). At many schools, there may likely be a chance to get a TA-ship in Engineering or Mathematics. Often the STEM fields are scrambling to fill their TA vacancies with qualified grad students in other departments (chem 101, anyone?!). The opportunities are out there.

Just a shot in the dark, but have you considered programs in Ed Policy? Many ed policy programs have strong overlap with sociology departments. Your background with different disciplines/ pedagogies combined with your publication may make you a strong candidate.

[Supernovasky]

I havent even considered educational policy. I'll look into that during my MA search and possible PhD applications next year. I agree that I'd probably be competitive there... but I have to say, the thing I really have the most passion for is quantitative sociology and research methods, followed by environmental sociology. The thing that really lit a fire in me regarding research methods and quantitative sociology is the book, "The Wisdom of Crowds." There is so much in there that has thus far gone unstudied and I mention it in all of my applications. I guess at Austin, at least, there's nobody that is as interested in it as I am. I know that the quantitative side of sociology is a little smaller than the massive ammount of sex and gender, social stratification, criminology, and race disciplines of sociology... so I'm competing with fewer applicants regarding professors who are interested in this, but I'm finding also that there aren't very many professors working on this at Austin (and Boulder, although I've found one or two at Boulder I'd love to work with). One exception, Washington is TEEMING with quantitative sociology professors. I really feel like I have a shot there, if everything else seems competitive.

[Supernovasky]

I didn't even mention environmental sociology in any of my applications though, save for mentioning the specific experience I have in environmentally related extra curriculars. That's why I've emailed a few environmental sociology professors from the universities left letting them know that while I didn't make it a focus in my ap, its something I'm also very willing to work on.

[Darth.Vegan]

I actually emailed professors at Colorado - Boulder telling them though I focused on the quantitative side in my application, I wanted to let a select couple professors know that I was also VERY open to researching environmental sociology given my background.

Hopefully I'll get some responses from them.

I didn't even mention environmental sociology in any of my applications though, save for mentioning the specific experience I have in environmentally related extra curriculars. That's why I've emailed a few environmental sociology professors from the universities left letting them know that while I didn't make it a focus in my ap, its something I'm also very willing to work on.

I am sensing a little bit of a problem here.

Did you focus on only your quantitative experience on all your applications? I really hope that you have been tailoring your applications to the programs you have been applying to. CU-Boulder is one of the strongest environmental sociology programs in the country, you should really have been talking up your interest in environmental sociology in your application.

I am planning to apply to 15 programs next cycle, while some parts of my SOP will be the same, I plan to tailor my SOP's and my applications for each program and I am asking my letter writers to do the same. I also plan to contact at least some faculty at each program 6 months before the deadline.

From what a very well known professor in environmental sociology and social movements had to say on the subject:

Back to environmental sociology grad schools: Wisconsin has a long-term reputation as the best, but I don't know if it's still justified (the overall program is still strong, but I'm thinking only about environmental). Colorado is working hard on becoming the best in ES.

Edited January 27, 2012 by xdarthveganx

[maximus82]

That just makes me not want to apply to Columbia. Getting a good score on a standardized test only means that you are good at taking standardized tests. If the professors at Columbia don't know that, that's pretty scary.

People keep saying that getting a good score in the GRE only means that you are good at taking standarized tests... that's nice and all, but it's not entirely true! Getting a good GRE score means at least that a) you're good at working under pressure (which you will have to do in grad school); that you are flexible and good problem solver (which you will have to do in gradschool); and finally it shows you know how to manage your time!!! If you were in a committee and had to read 600 applications you would also look at standarized tests before anything else.

And just to be clear, Super, you're score isn't bad at all. like you said, you're at about the 75% percentile. That's pretty good. The real problem is that you applied to schools that are just TOO competitive. it doesn't say anything bad about you.

In terms of what you should do to improve your application: have a professor, hopefully a professor who has been in a graduate admission committee, go over your personal statement. When i first my personal statement I spend half a page talking about your extracurricular activities and how i was president of this and secretary of that. Honestly, once you get to graduate school, no one cares. The kind of stuff that you need to say in your personal statement is very different from what most people think.

[sciencegirl]

@supernovasky... after reading a lot more about you, I think you have a ton to offer a program, but maybe your statement could be stronger? I started crafting my SOP in August.. luckily I have some friends in some really good programs who were willing to go over my statement. After my first attempt in August, they made me redo it completely. I went through 5 rounds of this, and afterwards, I realized that it was hard for me to express my strengths in the SOP in a way that would impress a sociology adcom. What an adcom is looking for is a student ready to start research with fairly defined research interests... what I spent too much time focusing on was my past. One of my friends who has sat on an adcom committee gave me this advice from her time spent with faculty on the adcom in her department: everyone has a great undergraduate record and accomplishments if they are applying to a phD program, but most applicants in their SOP have terrible defined research goals and what they are interested in... or they were so vague in their interests that the application rarely stood out. For instance, "I like quantitative Sociology"... "I want to study gender"... "Because of this professor, I found social networks interesting and wish to study this more in a phD program""... but nothing more concrete, unique or interesting than that. I also realized that my first SOP fell into this trap... it was all focused on me and what I had done before, and nothing about what I want to do in the future that would impress an adcom committee.

I only mentioned this because in your listing of "you" - its very focused on the past and what you have done. But I'm so curious about what you could do... seriously: an intensive study on the habits and patterns of people buying used cars?? THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. Broken down by race, SES factors, gender, age etc... I doubt any schools get applicants who have spent two years selling used cars. Sociology is examining our society, and you have spent 2 years "examining" it in a way that no one else in sociology has really done. A well-defined SOP focusing on that would make you stand out in a way that would give you a very good shot into any program.

Also, given that you are a first generation college student, this is THE MOST underrepresented group in phD programs. You should be getting all of your application fees waived (no excuses from you if you don't get them waived.. that just means you didn't try hard enough since it should be really easy with both your current income/loans, and also your first gen. status). You should apply to 15 programs for free.

Sorry for the tough love... I am lucky that I have some amazing friends who have guided me through this process, and hopefully we here on the forum can help you get through this.

PS: It's been beaten to death, but GRE scores generally are important only as a threshold.. ie, of course Columbia looks at GRE scores first, but they do a soft weeding out with this info - they will probably set aside everything below 500 or 550 on a verbal score, and then go from there to look at other parts of the application. A decent/good GRE score is necessary just to make that first cut-off.. so yes, scores at what they might look at first, but not most important in the overall application.

[Supernovasky]

All good advice guys.

Yeah, I think my SOP probably needs work. I mean I go over everything I went over here, be it in my personal statement, my curriculum vitae, or even my writing sample, but my personal statement definitely does need some work if I dont get accepted this go around. I'm going to retool it for the MA programs I apply to.

I am still hoping beyond hope I get accepted into Wash or Boulder though.

[lovenhaight]

Super -

Something else that you should keep in mind is that you're not just competing with people just out of undergrad, you're also competing against people with an MA or MS in hand. I learned that lesson the hard way when I applied straight out of undergrad (although I was a non-traditional student, so I was your age at that point). I ended up going to a terminal MA program that funded me very well because of my academic record, and it has really been the best decision I've ever made. My faculty have done a fantastic job of molding those of us who want to go on and get a PhD elsewhere, and now I know I'm ready to kick some serious behind at the PhD level.

Also, as someone who has worked as an administrator in a department at a very prestigious public university, I want to echo the point that others have made about the GRE mostly being used as a threshold as to whose application packet actually makes it to the faculty members. After you make the cutoff it tends not to matter as much as the more substantive pieces of the application.

I'd encourage you to search for MA-only programs and apply for the upcoming season just in case you don't get accepted to a PhD program. Another poster suggested UNC-C, which would be an excellent choice, as would the MA program at East Carolina University. Also check UNC-Greensboro. (I'm pretty familiar with the UNC-System schools.) Most of the terminal programs have much later application deadlines, so you haven't missed out on the opportunity to apply. If you go ahead and apply to some of those programs you'll at least have some options if the PhD programs don't immediately pan out, and it sounds like a big part of the motivation for you is that you're not particularly happy with your current career. This would give you an escape route and would also set you up to enter one of the big programs that you've set your sights on...just a bit later than you'd expected.

Keep your head up and your hopes high, and always remember there is more than one path to reach your destination.

[Supernovasky]

I have found a few MA programs that I am applying to right now. Contacting professors from those programs too.

[rising_star]

Supernovasky, did you apply to programs that were a good fit? I ask this because you say UT-Austin doesn't really have any quantitative sociology faculty and yet you applied there anyway. Applying to schools that aren't a good fit will doom any applicant (there's a thread on the Education forum right now about someone with a 3.9 GPA getting rejected, for example). Fit really is key.

[Supernovasky]

More than just that, I'm emailing particular professors before even applying to see if they would be interested in the kind of research I am interseted in, and if I am a good fit for individual professors.

The good thing is, U-Wash is full of professors in quantitative sociology, and Boulder has 2 (one of whom has emailed me back, albeit a short email), and Ann Arbor has a ton (although I doubt my Ann Arbor chances, its a major reach school, haha).

I really think that U-Wash is going to accept me, with a slight possibility Boulder does as well.

[RunMilw]

The best advice I received from a prof, who has been on admissions committees at 2 top 5 programs was to find "a cluster" of people whom you want to work with. She told me she always looked to match people's interests with a group of professors. Additionally, I discussed how the cities and areas surrounding the school could be utilized to benefit my research/advancement of sociology. She said banking on one professor is risky, especially if that prof is not tenure track--lots of movement within academia. The school wants you to want to go to that school because the program is a great fit, not just for a professor.

Also, emphasizing some aspect about you that differs you from others is always a good idea too.

Edited January 28, 2012 by RunMilw

[Supernovasky]

I definitely have a lot that "differs" me that I emphasized.

I'm emailing a ton of professors now just letting them know more about me in all of the schools that still have applications open.

I'm hoping to get a bite or two...

[Sociograd]

I definitely have a lot that "differs" me that I emphasized.

I'm emailing a ton of professors now just letting them know more about me in all of the schools that still have applications open.

I'm hoping to get a bite or two...

Have you gotten any responses to your emails?

[Supernovasky]

Only 2, and one of them was from UT-Austin. A UC-Boulder lady professor thanked me for email me and told me she looks forward to reading my application.

[Supernovasky]

Anyone know if sallie mae and nelnet keep making me pay on student loans if I enroll in graduate school?

[sleepycat]

The best advice I received from a prof, who has been on admissions committees at 2 top 5 programs was to find "a cluster" of people whom you want to work with. She told me she always looked to match people's interests with a group of professors. Additionally, I discussed how the cities and areas surrounding the school could be utilized to benefit my research/advancement of sociology. She said banking on one professor is risky, especially if that prof is not tenure track--lots of movement within academia. The school wants you to want to go to that school because the program is a great fit, not just for a professor.

Also, emphasizing some aspect about you that differs you from others is always a good idea too.

That is what I heard to and everywhere I applied I had at least 3 professors I could work with on my research. I think that also limited where i could apply, but I think it will pay off in the long run.

I am also freaking out about getting in, mostly because of my GRE scores. I am planning on applying to MA programs after i receive my first letter back and if it is a rejection. If it is an in, then I am not going to bother.

Edited January 29, 2012 by sleepycat