GRE doesn't matter

[Tonights]

The GRE is NOT the end all be all. A lower score may take you out of the running for merit aid offered by the school, but it won't override other awesome things on your application.

Those are some really wide-reaching generalizations you're making. The emphasis placed on the GRE really varies by field, school, degree and program. Stating that "it won't override other awesome things, etc" is really misleading considering that fact that we've had posts about the algorithms some schools use to weed out unacceptable applicants before the qualitative parts of their applications are even considered, and they certainly include GRE numbers in there. Sure, your field and your program might not have placed too much emphasis on it, but plenty of programs DO. Especially doctoral programs, and especially fields where math skills or verbal skills are strongly prized.

[Aeternalis]

I hope the GRE really does matter in my case! It's one of the few things I have going for me since I have a GPA that is in the opposite end of the spectrum to my GRE score.

[DefinitelyMaybe]

The emphasis placed on the GRE really varies by field, school, degree and program. Sure, your field and your program might not have placed too much emphasis on it, but plenty of programs DO. Especially doctoral programs, and especially fields where math skills or verbal skills are strongly prized.

[policy_applicant]

I'm applying to similar masters programs as definitelymaybe. In September of last year I scheduled a meeting with someone in the admissions department of a school that prides itself on its quantitative focus. When I told her my GRE quant score, she said I had a good chance and suggested that the school looks at the GRE Q to make sure students will be able to excel in the math and econ classes. So even within a field and degree level, the amount of weight put on the GRE can vary.

[j.tomkins]

*

[MDLee]

GRE doesn't really matter. I got into a top 20 English PhD program with horrific GRE Subject Test score and a so-so General Test score. Luck? Maybe. Measures my graduate potential? Heck no!

Sigh...I've heard this many ways. I've heard that its not really a factor...then I've heard that certain parts are a major factor....then I've heard the whole thing is a factor. I think it just depends on where you apply to and what they're trying to figure out based on what you sent them. My GRE was high in the analytical writing, really good in the verbal, and horrific in the quantitative...no acceptances yet. So...we soldier on.

[torakichi]

I'm an international student and my verbal scores were very low. Do you guys think the university will consider the fact that I'm a non-native english speaker and will not consider my verbal scores a big deal. by the way, I have a very good TOEFL score; does it count in lieu of the GRE verbal?

I asked the very same question to a faculty member I corresponded with, and that person told me that yes, they are aware that the GRE Verbal is not an adequate representation of a foreign students English ability and that they rather trust the TOEFL score. Another thing that person told me is that if your Quantitative score is much higher than your Verbal they also take it as a sign that your abilities are better than the Verbal seems to indicate.

So, in short, a high TOEFL and a high Quantitative can offset a low Verbal for international students, or so I was told.

[dayafterxmas]

I've done some online research (obsessively) on this topic and have found that the top schools post Quant expectations, not so much on the Verbal. Here's a site that interviewed the Director of WWS on what Princeton looks for in candidates for the MPA.

http://www.fandm.edu/x9703

Other than that, I know that this year may be extra competitive, thanks to the craptastic economy and the Obama effect.

[madastudent]

I asked the very same question to a faculty member I corresponded with, and that person told me that yes, they are aware that the GRE Verbal is not an adequate representation of a foreign students English ability and that they rather trust the TOEFL score. Another thing that person told me is that if your Quantitative score is much higher than your Verbal they also take it as a sign that your abilities are better than the Verbal seems to indicate.

So, in short, a high TOEFL and a high Quantitative can offset a low Verbal for international students, or so I was told.

Thanks!! that made my day less stressing

[bernard]

Let me say, research matters most. GRE, especially verbal, is not important if you have research experiences (in the forms of publications) + good LORS from research professors.

[llcooln6]

GRE matter alot....I got rejected from a few schools even though i have my masters and lots of research experiences and I am currently a marketing researcher....GRE matter ALot.....weak ETS Scandal to make money...sad

[void]

I agree that it really depends on each program. I believe programs cannot legally post their cut-off scores, for those that have them. I found that a way to determine how heavily the GRE would be weighed was to look carefully at the wording each program web page used to talk about the GRE. Many programs just said to include your scores, others detailed the importance of GREs for your application. My scores were alright, but nothing spectacular, so I decided against the programs that specified the importance of the GRE on their website, taking that as a strong sign that they held to a specific cut-off.

[BostonGrrl]

I applied to Ph.D. programs in the humanities and many of my programs said that they looked for scores of at least 650 in Verbal (no word about Math or Writing).

[lotf629]

The book Getting What You Came For provides survey data ranking the relative importance of different aspects of your app. Their list is as follows (numbers are scores on a scale of 1 to 5, with 5 being "extremely important"):

3.9 Undergrad GPA in major field

3.8 Recommendations from faculty known by members of department

3.7 Undergrad GPA in junior and senior years

3.6 GRE General Verbal score

3.6 Undergrad major related to field of graduate study

3.5 Undergrad GPA overall

3.0 Educational or career aspirations of applicant

3.0 Recommendations from faculty not known by department members

3.0 Applicant known to department faculty

2.9 Other academic achievements (papers, projects)

2.9 Quality of undergrad institution

2.7 Personal statement on application form

2.7 Impression made in personal interview

2.6 Work experience

2.6 GRE General Analytical score

2.5 Other nonfaculty recommendations

2.5 GRE Subject test score appropriate to program

1.9 Other test scores

1.9 GRE Subject test score appropriate to applicant's undergrad major

Here's the description of the study: "[C]omprehensive surveys can sum up trends over many departments and academic disciplines. One such large-scale study by Philip Oltman and Rodney Hartnett for the Educational Testing Service (ETS)...surveyed how twelve disciplines judged admissions criteria (p. 60)." Obviously, YMMV: for instance, I am confident that many English programs weigh the Literature subject test much more heavily than the Analytical test.

It seems to me that you can often get into a program if one aspect of your app is below standard, but usually not if two or more aspects of your app are below standard, and that the GRE plays some part in this equation. For instance, if your GREs are low but everything else is fine, your GREs will likely be fine (unless the scores relevant to your program are so abysmally low that they raise serious concerns about your ability to do the coursework). On the other hand, if your grades are low, your GREs better be rockin'. Finally, if your grades are somewhat low or inconsistent, fantastic GREs in relevant areas can go a long way toward getting the committee to look at other aspects of your application.

A cut-and-paste from a post at the Chronicle of Higher Ed fora [http]:

"As others have mentioned, it's possible to skim and chuck a substantial fraction of the files without giving them all the full inspection.

"Wrong major not addressed in SOP, toss.

"Low GPA, low GRE, poor SOP, toss.

"Low GPA, low GRE, applying from a fourth rate school, toss.

"Either a low GPA or a low GRE with weak letters of recommendation, toss.

"High GPA, poor SOP, weak letters of recommendation, toss.

"High GPA, high GRE, fantastic SOP, strong letters of recommendation, keep.

"Three of those four items strong and one weak, read the essays and other materials.

"Not using a firm GRE/GPA cut-off still doesn't mean that people have to read the whole portfolio of every applicant. It just means that you aren't automatically sunk if one of those numbers is lower than average."

This post (by somebody with adcom experience, obviously) affirms my basic instinct that you often have a little slack w/r/t your application, but only a little. If you use up your slack on your GRE scores, then you don't have any room to get bad grades. Etc.

I feel like it's important to remember that every aspect of your app is evaluated in the context of every other aspect of your app.

[ohheygradschool]

I got into Yale with a 33%tile Q. Granted, that was for history... but just sayin'.

[allamerican]

I will never get a decent score in GRE in my life but i guess i will get accepted one day at one of the schools, it is just a part of your app and some school don't really consider it.

[MDLee]

I got into Yale with a 33%tile Q. Granted, that was for history... but just sayin'.

sure, sure...rub it in

[boneh3ad]

FWIW, I had a fairly low GPA compared to the majority of people who go to grad school for mechanical engineering, but my GRE scores were really good, which definitely helped my applications.

[KFF216]

I hate this thread.

From the discussion here it seems like the GRE can HELP you get past the first round of scrutiny.

And I stupidly did not submit my scores.

I took a glance at them and thought "oh this won't help me", but now I think that they may have helped me (650v 550Q), since I am an older returning student and my undergrad GPA is not strong. My Qualitative score seems very low, but I am applying for an Ed. program.

I have other things going for me though, like taking 2 classes non-matric and earning A's, and a writing sample from one of those classes that is very pertinent to my field - and which earned me an A and a "very well done!" from the prof. I even submitted a copy of the paper with the grade and comments on it. And a strong SOP, showing enthusiasm, experience, and a clear goal.

Anyway, this thread has now given me something else to obsess about! and regret. So tell me that these scores are ho-hum, and I was right not to submit them. I really do not know anymore.

[Yellow#5]

KFF,

That's a very respectable Verbal Score, but a not great Q score. If you are in anything related to the sciences, you probably did the right thing in holding them back.

[samsarictraveler]

IMO (and I come to this process both as a sucessful aplicant and as the son of two history professors in a mid-tier history program (Maryland)) GREs matter, but not in the way many people think. It also, of course, depends on to which program you apply. In college, what matters is the total number; that's usually not the case in grad school. If you're in science, quant is important, verbal not much. Vice versa in Humanities (obviously) The GRE is very unforgiving to people whose are not native english speakers, so probably verbal is ignored (if its not too low) for International applicants (unless, of course, you apply in English Lit!)

Most schools use flexible cut-offs. If your score is too low, they ignore you, unless for some reason they excuse your score (I had a friend who was accepted at Harvard PhD in religion (admits about 10 with 200 or so applicants) with a verbal below 700-the catch, it was a small program, the professors knew who he was, and he had great recs and a fantastic writing sample). The bigger the program, obviously, the less flexible they will be.

There is a corralary of GRE being a cutoff. It means that high GRE scores probably won't offset low GPA (remember grad school is not college!)

After the cut off, GREs matter very little. Some schools may use GRE for funding (its certainly a rumor going around!) I find that unlikely in all but the biggest programs. The GRE is a very weak predicter of grad school sucess. Grades, recs, etc. are much more accurate. Schools would have much better results if they assigned funding based entirely on GPA instead of GRE! At Maryland funding was assigned mostly by faculty argument. The faculty who won the argument (ie the powerful faculy!) got money for their students. I suspect this is the way it is normally done (at least at the elite level!) Faculty like having students; it is in the interest of the facutly that they use a holistic procedure to allocate awards. And even the biggest programs at elite school accept very few people (usually under 30). For large groups a formula is appropriate, but not for small ones.

A propos of subject GREs. Some are useful, some are not. The now defunct History GRE, for instance, was utterly useless (it essentially only covered US history; the europeanists had extremely low scores). The physics GRE is one of the primary tools programs use to accept candadates. My thoughts are that if a program requires the the test, take it and put a lot of effort into it. Otherwise, absolutely do not take it. It could never you, no matter how well you do.

[michigan girl]

I am only applying to master's programs. I attached an addendum about family problems affecting my academic performance. I took the test two years ago, and I didn't do so well (980; 4.5 AW) and my overall GPA is 3.4-ish. Since then, I have been working in the field with some prominent professors and practitioners who love my performance. Do you think the admissions will ignore my scores?

[rufzilla]

I wish GREs didn't matter.

They are the only thing in my application that freaks me out -- especially since I only applied to one school. I have a pretty average GRE score (why I didn't take it again I do not know) of 1200 (V-540, Q-660), but a pretty good GPA of 3.9 that was gained through a lot of 400-level classes (no elementary basket weaving for me!). My SoP was good, although I could have worked on it longer. My LoR writers were all people that work either in the department I'm applying to or at the university: a chairperson, a director, a religion prof (my minor) and a supplementary rec from a GA whose class I tutored for -- so I think those are pretty solid. However, I'm still freaking out.

I think its really a crap shoot and totally depends on the standards that your department wants to uphold. I would be sad, but wouldn't be in total denial if I were turned down because of my average GRE scores. However, I think that if I made it past the first round of cut-offs (I hope!) the other items in my application would totally help me get in and the GRE scores would be obsolete at that point.

In the end, I guess there is no excuse for not trying your best to make sure that EVERY PART of your application is stellar. All of us here are trying to become masters of our potential field, so we should all try and make sure we look like the strongest candidates possible. Sorry for sounding preachy, but if you're not trying your hardest there is always a more qualified person or more ambitious person willing and eager to take your spot.

[Aceflyer]

I wish GREs didn't matter.

They are the only thing in my application that freaks me out -- especially since I only applied to one school. I have a pretty average GRE score (why I didn't take it again I do not know) of 1200 (V-540, Q-660), but a pretty good GPA of 3.9 that was gained through a lot of 400-level classes (no elementary basket weaving for me!). My SoP was good, although I could have worked on it longer. My LoR writers were all people that work either in the department I'm applying to or at the university: a chairperson, a director, a religion prof (my minor) and a supplementary rec from a GA whose class I tutored for -- so I think those are pretty solid. However, I'm still freaking out.

I think its really a crap shoot and totally depends on the standards that your department wants to uphold. I would be sad, but wouldn't be in total denial if I were turned down because of my average GRE scores. However, I think that if I made it past the first round of cut-offs (I hope!) the other items in my application would totally help me get in and the GRE scores would be obsolete at that point.

In the end, I guess there is no excuse for not trying your best to make sure that EVERY PART of your application is stellar. All of us here are trying to become masters of our potential field, so we should all try and make sure we look like the strongest candidates possible. Sorry for sounding preachy, but if you're not trying your hardest there is always a more qualified person or more ambitious person willing and eager to take your spot.

My impression from the programs I visited was that some programs barely care about GRE scores (as long as they aren't totally abysmal) while others care more about it. Overall though I agree with rufzilla, it is best to make sure that every part of your application is as good as you can make it.

[mmblue88]

I wouldn't say it doesn't matter. But I don't think it correlates much with success in grad school. Here is an interesting article I came across http://gradpsych.apags.org/2009/03/score.html