Transferring from a Top 10 to a Top 10

[saltlakecity2012]

So I haven't heard back from most of my schools yet, but I'm wondering about something. If I don't get into my dream school (and prefer it significantly above my existing options) but I think I would have a good shot if I tried again, knowing a bit more about the specific program, would it be better to wait a year and continue working and then reapply, or to try to transfer?

Luckily I've been accepted into some great programs, so if I went off to Michigan and did excellent work there for a year and still decided I wanted to go elsewhere, I'm guessing that getting into another top-level program would be easier than trying to transfer in from University #72 on the NRC rankings. I just don't know if transferring once in a PhD program is frowned upon, or if there are even really procedures in place. I'm sure I'd have to redo a lot of coursework, but other than that I have no information on the process.

Any thoughts?

Edited February 9, 2012 by tergellian

[kaykaykay]

Well, you can definitely transfer from top 10 to top 10 but I am not sure why would you want to . If you absolutely do not find mentorship and the resources you need maybe it makes sense. Otherwise just because you really really really but really really really want a program I do not think it makes sense. As harsh as I will sound you have to remember that your top program may have rejected you for a reason. The advisor you want may be too busy, leaving, developed different interests, they may have an overflow of students at your area of interst so they are uncertain that they can place the graduates etc. On the other hand the programs you got into may have the fit you want. You have quite a few great programs to choose from even at this point but you sound a little bit like a spoilt kid thinking already about transfering. Top 10 programs are top 10 for a reason they all have good professors and you can succeed in all of them. Visit the programs, and you may find yourself happy with your choice.

On the other hand the results from "dream" schools are not yet out so you really have no reason whatsoever to think about this just yet.

Edited February 9, 2012 by kalapocska

[catchermiscount]

Do not think about transferring unless a situation arises where you must. It's that simple.

[RWBG]

You'd need strong letters from faculty at the school you're attending that identify a clear academic reason for the transfer. I suspect that your reasoning here would not be sufficient to get those from Michigan's faculty. I also think you need to seriously consider how much of a difference a change between schools in the top five is going to have on your ability to do good research. I think some people have a tendency to get fixated on a particular school (or a few schools) that they want to go to, to an extent that far surpasses the real distinctions in training between those schools.

[shavasana]

Hey guys! Let's be supportive. If people can't ask honest questions they have here, where can they? No need to call people "spoiled" or a "brat" for wondering.

[saltlakecity2012]

All very good points. This was my initial thinking as well - thank you very much for the feedback. And yes, it's true that the program I'm most interested in has not yet sent out letters, but I've gotten some less than encouraging info through backchannels mostly having to do with areas that I would need more preparation in. Also, I'm highly neurotic. But the point that they may not want me for a reason is very valid.

Again, I don't mean to tread on anyone's toes or to suggest that I'm not incredibly honored and grateful to have the acceptances I already do. Thanks!

Edit: also, re: the training aspect - the program I'm thinking of is highly interdisciplinary in nature, and is thus somewhat unique. But the argument stands - I know I can do what I want at the schools I applied to, which is why I applied to them. I'm really curious about whether or not people do transfer once in grad school, and I now am receiving info that basically says that people do not unless it is a necessity.

Good information to have. Hopefully this will be useful to someone else.

Moral of the story: make sure you go to a place where you'll be happy, well-trained, and productive.

Edited February 9, 2012 by tergellian

[grantman]

Good Afternoon Tergellian,

First I would like to congratulate on the schools you have been admitted to thus far, you have a very difficult task ahead of you in making your decision.

To address your concern all my findings are based off my personal feelings, so I really do not know how much this will aid you. I think you could transfer between schools, but the question really depends on the school you would be transferring to. Some schools may not accept the credits you have accumulated and transfer them over, some schools allow it, it just depends. Some schools usually have an FAQ section that might address this question better then I can, but I do know people have transferred to other programs, usually after acquiring their masters.

I am sorry I could not be mich help in this section, and again I wish you the up most luck in your graduate studies, based on the programs you have been admiited to thusfar you will do great.

[catchermiscount]

Were the words "spoiled" or "brat" used? Not cool.

It remains: pick a good program and work like hell when you get there. Transferring is not pleasant, and going in think it's possible is icky.

[brent09]

I would second a lot of the sentiments above. I am in the process of transferring right now, but from a top-50 to a top-10/15. In general, I've had more success than failure, but I've also learned that there can be some political elements to transferring. For your case, it seems like you have one DREAM school that you really want to attend. That sounds fair to me, so I say go for it. Remember two things, however:

1. Given your high quality as an applicant, it's unlikely that you'll do much in your first year to become more competitive; this might not be the case if your initial application were weak (e.g., methods deficient) and you could get through part of a methods sequence in Year 1. But as a strong applicant already, the first year coursework probably won't help that much. And in any case, it's unlikely that the benefits of a year at Michigan would outweigh costs of being a "transfer" applicant.

2. If there's one thing worse than having to ask for letters in your first year, it's coming back in the second year because you failed. Your new letter writers don't want to feel like you've "used" their program to springboard somewhere else. They might write good letters, but if (and this is always a chance) your transfer fails, you're stuck in a department for four more years with faculty who see you as someone who tried to jump ship (and couldn't even pull it off).

As with anything, this is a question of how much risk (and for how much reward) you're willing to accept. If you decide to go for it, I'd advise you minimize the downside risks. The two things I was sure to do: 1. frame the case as fit, not prestige. You arrived at Michigan with certain interests, but now realize those are better served elsewhere. 2. Don't advertise your interest in transferring. Discuss it with the faculty you need, nobody else. Don't advertise it to your fellow students. Essentially, don't brand yourself as a defector. If the transfer doesn't work, you'll be stuck with the name for the next four years.

I know that stuff probably sounds kind of cloak-and-dagger, but that was the advice I received from my advisor, and it's proved quite valuable.

[brent09]

I also agree that "spoilt kid" is a bridge too far in this conversation. That said, I can imagine this thread will generate a good bit of frustration amongst applicants who are getting mixed results, or really hoping for just one top program to accept them. Not to blame anyone for being successful -- many congratulations are in order! -- but I think the thread threatens to generate some resentment.

[kaykaykay]

well I said "you sound a little bit like a spoilt kid. " if that hurt anyone I sincerely apologise. It is basically because once I was in the same situation and cried over my top school which rejected me while I got into very great programs. As I did a masters in my top choice I can actually compare the two and I can honestly say I did not have any reason to be upset. Well, maybe your situation is different. In any case good luck with your decision.

Edited February 10, 2012 by kalapocska

[PoliSci27]

I also agree that "spoilt kid" is a bridge too far in this conversation. That said, I can imagine this thread will generate a good bit of frustration amongst applicants who are getting mixed results, or really hoping for just one top program to accept them. Not to blame anyone for being successful -- many congratulations are in order! -- but I think the thread threatens to generate some resentment.

I second this.

EDIT: My remark was snarky. I don't need any more negative reputation points.

Edited February 9, 2012 by PoliSci27

[midwest513]

Plenty of students take a semester or a year as a visiting student at other departments where they can work with other faculty who interest them after they pass qualifying exams and are working on their prospectus,etc...You can still do this.

[saltlakecity2012]

1. Grantman, thank you! I appreciate your feedback, and I am certain that any school would be lucky to have you and will look forward to coming across you in the field in the future!

2. Coach - thanks for playing moderator. I don't think "brat" ever came up - I do recognize that this was probably a contentious topic and should probably have been dealt with more discreetly. However, I hope that this will prove useful to anyone else in the same boat, as it already has to me.

3. Brent09 - good to know. Your suggestions are quite helpful.

4. kalapocska - no hurt feelings! Your point of view is as valid and useful as anyone else's.

5. jonrob - I had no idea about this. That would be the perfect solution, if down the line it did seem as if my academic needs were not 100% fulfilled at my institution.

Thanks again.

[newyorkerapplicant]

Tergellian, here's my 2 cents:

First, I don't know which subfield you are applying for, but why would you waste a year of your life to move from one top school to another? Given that Michigan is ranked at #3 (NRC rankings), the only schools where you could move up in the rankings would be Harvard and Stanford.

Second, why would you want to transfer to another top 10 school if it would be lower in the rankings, unless you have a geographical constraint in where you can be?

Third, I would worry about the problem that brent09 pointed out. You probably do not want to tell the faculty at Michigan that you are trying to transfer to another school (especially since you haven't even arrived on campus). I am guessing the faculty will not want to advise a student who is already seeking to transfer away.

Finally, and this is why you should take my advice with a grain of salt, if Michigan is not where you want to be, then please just tell them right now that you will not be attending. I am on the waitlist at Michigan and would like to get off of it!

Seriously, why go there if you are already planning to transfer?

[newyorkerapplicant]

So I haven't heard back from most of my schools yet, but I'm wondering about something. If I don't get into my dream school (and prefer it significantly above my existing options) but I think I would have a good shot if I tried again, knowing a bit more about the specific program, would it be better to wait a year and continue working and then reapply, or to try to transfer?

Luckily I've been accepted into some great programs, so if I went off to Michigan and did excellent work there for a year and still decided I wanted to go elsewhere, I'm guessing that getting into another top-level program would be easier than trying to transfer in from University #72 on the NRC rankings. I just don't know if transferring once in a PhD program is frowned upon, or if there are even really procedures in place. I'm sure I'd have to redo a lot of coursework, but other than that I have no information on the process.

Any thoughts?

Also, don't forget that you would have to approach the Michigan professors in November of this fall and ask for recommendation letters for you to apply to transfer. I'm not sure if a professor at any top school would respond positively to a first-year graduate student making such a request just two months into the program.

Again, if you don't think you belong at Michigan, then please don't go there! Don't take up a spot that plenty of other applicants (including me) would be happier to take.

Edited February 10, 2012 by newyorkerapplicant

[RWBG]

Also, don't forget that you would have to approach the Michigan professors in November of this fall and ask for recommendation letters for you to apply to transfer. I'm not sure if a professor at any top school would respond positively to a first-year graduate student making such a request just two months into the program.

Again, if you don't think you belong at Michigan, then please don't go there! Don't take up a spot that plenty of other applicants (including me) would be happier to take.

So Michigan > Stanford for you? Who are you interested in working with at Michigan, out of curiosity?

[balthasar]

This is just a highly unlikely hypothetical scenario created in the mind of our nervous tergellian, so let's relax a little bit. Tergy will be fine wherever s/he will choose to attend. If not, then she can think about transferring - I can't think of anything more normal than that. Let's remember that s/he is also experiencing the same process that we are all going through, and the fact that she has good results so far doesn't change that fact. Everyone is considering zillions of different scenarios right now, the only difference between everyone and tergellian is that s/he decided to share this one with us.

[chaetzli]

There is one aspect that would keep me from transferring: The university will invest a substantial amount of money in you (tuition waiver, stipend...). I believe that the university thus "deserves" that you have at least the intention to stay and to finish your PhD there (you never know whether it will work out). I am from a relatively poor family, which is why I appreciate if an institution invests in my education (I am sure you do as well) since I wouldn't be able to study at a good place otherwise.

[Chichil_nisky]

Kalapocska was absolutely right. Tergellian is sounding like a spoilt brat who is always going to complain about her situation, no matter how good it is objectively. I suggest that graduate school is not a good option for you, given that you were probably born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Whereas I sincerely believe that graduate school is the most democratic environment in the world, where you must earn everything and nothing is given to you by entitlement.

If you go to Michigan, you are complaining that it is only the third-highest ranked university in political science. However, if you go to Harvard, you will probably complain that although it is the first-ranked, it does not have as good an American football team as Michigan. With all of the complaining and plans to transfer away when everything is not perfect, how will you find the time to write a dissertation?

I suggest that you do not go to graduate school. Find the profession that will give you everything you want and don't waste your time facing the difficulties of graduate study. There are more than enough other applicants who truly want the opportunities we are offered and are willing to work hard for professors without feeling so entitled.

[shavasana]

Kalapocska was absolutely right. Tergellian is sounding like a spoilt brat who is always going to complain about her situation, no matter how good it is objectively. I suggest that graduate school is not a good option for you, given that you were probably born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Whereas I sincerely believe that graduate school is the most democratic environment in the world, where you must earn everything and nothing is given to you by entitlement.

If you go to Michigan, you are complaining that it is only the third-highest ranked university in political science. However, if you go to Harvard, you will probably complain that although it is the first-ranked, it does not have as good an American football team as Michigan. With all of the complaining and plans to transfer away when everything is not perfect, how will you find the time to write a dissertation?

I suggest that you do not go to graduate school. Find the profession that will give you everything you want and don't waste your time facing the difficulties of graduate study. There are more than enough other applicants who truly want the opportunities we are offered and are willing to work hard for professors without feeling so entitled.

I am going to defend Tergellian again. What in God's name is people's problem with this? She has clearly stated that she is incredibly grateful for her opportunities, just asking what her options are.

Aren't we all playing every possible scenario in our heads about the way our futures are going to go? I would think that it would behoove us to be supportive and helpful. Some of the comments on this thread have been wonderfully helpful. I for one, didn't know that it was possible to be a visiting student (something that might be very useful during my dissertation research given the very interdisciplinary nature of my work.)

So I say shame on anyone for openly disparaging a poster who (if you check other threads) has been incredibly supportive of other applicants' successes.

[grantman]

I agree with Adblanche, we are all trying to get the best possible option for all of us, and Tergellian is no different. All Tergellian was trying to do was ask a simple question and ask for our honest opinion, but because of this response, many more people who are just trying to plan out their respective futures will now be scared of asking because they are going to be afraid of replies like the one a few comments ago.

I must say, from a personal standpoint, that I have a great distaste for those types of commentary.

[balthasar]

Such fury and disappointment guys. I feel like I am left under a pile of rubble with all the negative rep points . I get why people might get angry but hey, I have no acceptances so far. So if I can empathize I think everyone else can also at least try. Best of luck to everyone for the remainder of the cycle!

[PoliSci27]

Such fury and disappointment guys. I feel like I am left under a pile of rubble with all the negative rep points . I get why people might get angry but hey, I have no acceptances so far. So if I can empathize I think everyone else can also at least try. Best of luck to everyone for the remainder of the cycle!

I wouldn't worry about the reputation points. They are nonsense (says the person who has been in the negative since joining).

I think it's nice to try to empathize, but it can be hard right now. You have one person worrying about trading her mansion for a palace, while many are still homeless. Without making any judgment of the OP's character, some people were just pointing out that the thread can come across as insensitive and entitled.

[Gradhorn]

To get back to the original topic, I'd be hesitant to transfer barring some unusual circumstances. Don't become too fixated on one professor or another from afar. As a graduate student you are the primary architect of your training, and you can shape it to whatever you want it to be. Yes, letterhead matters when you hit the job market, but you are already in at a top school, so that isn't an issue. Transfer would be a painful, time-consuming, and risky process.