Decisions, Decisions

[goldielocks]

Hi everyone,

I know we've tossed around the idea of starting a decisions thread, and I think it's a really good idea, so here we go. I just wanted to make a separate thread so that those members still waiting for good news aren't subjected to conversations that might lead to more anxiety. We all know how agonizing the waiting game is, and I don't want anyone to have to read through these conversations unless they want to.

Some of you guys have some really hard decisions to make (I'm looking at you, Safferz). I know that I am in a pickle right now, trying to decide between some of my top chocies. I realize this is not really a problem, and if it is... it's a good one to have.

How are the rest of you deciding? Visiting and playing it by ear? Interrogating current students there? Drawing from a hat?

[Ganymede18]

Money's the matter for my partner. She has good fits everywhere, and has gotten along with everyone she's spoken to. I guess the visits will be the clincher.

[Gene Parmesan]

I'm really glad this thread was started. I was hoping to get a conversation going with people about the next step of the process, and without loading up posts about admissions in the other thread.

For me, I'll be visiting my top 2 schools I was accepted to (the third I visited in the Fall as part of a grant/scholarship, so I've got a good sense). Although I'm going to do my best to remain open and aware of all the dynamics/qualities of each school, I also hope to devise a list of fair questions for current faculty and current graduate students there. I was told by my prof that a good time to speak with current grad students on my visit would be away from campus, typically over drinks or dinner, so as not to have anyone hold back for fear of a prof hearing or anything. Maybe email can serve this function as well. For example, when I visited a school last fall, all the profs would admit that funding was difficult but wouldn't elaborate. Graduate students opened up to me over coffee about the realities of multi-year funding there. So I really got different impressions of a school based on who I talked to.

Because funding offered at both my top 2 schools is generally the same when compared to cost of living, I'm not too concerned at this specific moment about where I can get more money. I'm still waiting on the results of fellowship nominations, and can't think much about funding until those come back. My only rule is that I must have funding that includes tuition and a stipend. I've worked 2-3 jobs, 14 hr shifts for the last 3 years while working on my BA and MA, and I refuse to let myself work outside the university (teaching I dont mind at all). I am hoping to discuss funding in more depth on my visits to get a sense of what the next years of my life will look like.

I am leaning towards one school more than another. But because both departments seem equally invested in my application and my research, I want to be fair to myself and them give both departments equal attention on the visits. At this point, I see different trajectories for my work at different schools, and this drives me to lean towards one school over the other. BUT, I'm also waiting on 2 more decisions from Univ of Washington and North Carolina, which may or may not complicate my decision.

What have you been thinking, GoldieLocks?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Gene Parmesan

[Safferz]

Some of you guys have some really hard decisions to make (I'm looking at you, Safferz). I know that I am in a pickle right now, trying to decide between some of my top chocies. I realize this is not really a problem, and if it is... it's a good one to have.

How are the rest of you deciding? Visiting and playing it by ear? Interrogating current students there? Drawing from a hat?

Deciding is difficult! But I've narrowed it down to Harvard and Yale at this point, with Columbia as a distant third. I'm visiting all three over the next 2-3 weeks. I know that Harvard is my favourite on paper - and I'm waiting for their official offer letter to confirm that - but I don't want to make a final decision before getting a sense of each city/school/department.

I'm a bit sad that Harvard has dormitory-style housing for its grad students though

[pudewen]

Deciding is difficult! But I've narrowed it down to Harvard and Yale at this point, with Columbia as a distant third. I'm visiting all three over the next 2-3 weeks. I know that Harvard is my favourite on paper - and I'm waiting for their official offer letter to confirm that - but I don't want to make a final decision before getting a sense of each city/school/department.

I'm a bit sad that Harvard has dormitory-style housing for its grad students though

Harvard also owns large numbers of apartments, which are in large part rented by grad students. Also, there's no reason to feel compelled to live in university housing - in fact, it's almost certainly cheaper not to.

[New England Nat]

Harvard also owns large numbers of apartments, which are in large part rented by grad students. Also, there's no reason to feel compelled to live in university housing - in fact, it's almost certainly cheaper not to.

The cost question isn't as obvious at Princeton but there is a huge range between what you can draw for Princeton owed apartments.

[TMP]

OMG, after sitting on the sidelines for two years, now I can actually ask "WHAT WILL I EVER DO?!?!?! THIS IS SOOOOO HARD!!!!!!" (for you, SL and Sparky )

I am basically with Genie Parmesan on many counts. I am happy to be funded for at least four years, given that I have a MA and a list of dissertation fellowships that I absolutely want to apply for for my 5th year anyway. I wish I could say that both will allow me to save little while paying off my student loans but that won't happen.

It's tough for me in a way that my subfield is just beginning a transition where the more prominent faculty members are set to retire within the next 5-10 years and young professors like my POIs are going to start making their moves and occupy those coveted spots at top universities. This means that it's going to be hard to figure out which of the programs that younger professors are in are going to be the next "top" programs. For example, Columbia used to be The Place to go but now NYU is taking the #1 spot. What I mean is that I am thinking long term: which program will serve me the best for the job market? Which of my POIs and their colleagues who will be on my dissertation committees have stronger and more active connections that can get me a job?

Speaking of job market, that is also going to be something I'll be listening carefully for on both campuses. I want to know what students want to do with their PhDs if not tenure-track and know of other options. I want to know what individual faculty members expect of their students. I want to know if there's respect for "alternative" careers. UW's acceptance letter was interestingly worded. A department in denial isn't going to serve its students well and leave them unemployed if they don't land TT/VAP jobs.

One department has 2-3 certain, critical flaws that makes taking its offer quite risky and I hope to see how they will alleviate my concerns. One of the flaws is the lack of a second historian in my sub-field and it's a rather important position if I want to be very well-trained and I've been told that they won't fill the spot for another 2 years. This means that I have to accept the person on my dissertation committee, whether I like his/her work and him/her as a person or not. Last thing I want is to have a dissertation committee where nobody gets along. The other department's flaws aren't as critical but slightly concerning, including some opportunities that the first department is offering.

Campus visits will certainly make or break the deal. The second department may have an easier time if the first one can't make me feel better. So we shall see. I'm trying to relax....

[New England Nat]

It's tough for me in a way that my subfield is just beginning a transition where the more prominent faculty members are set to retire within the next 5-10 years and young professors like my POIs are going to start making their moves and occupy those coveted spots at top universities. This means that it's going to be hard to figure out which of the programs that younger professors are in are going to be the next "top" programs. For example, Columbia used to be The Place to go but now NYU is taking the #1 spot. What I mean is that I am thinking long term: which program will serve me the best for the job market? Which of my POIs and their colleagues who will be on my dissertation committees have stronger and more active connections that can get me a job?

It's not terribly uncommon for professors who are being hired into senior positions to bring graduate students with them. At my undergrad a professor I was close to was new in my senior year, she had come from respectable big state school to big name big state school into a named chair bringing a 3rd or 4th year grad student with her.

My sisters' adviser moved late in her time from one Ivy to another and continued advising her disertation, while she remained at her original department. So your adviser getting a better job doesn't mean you lose them.

[Safferz]

Harvard also owns large numbers of apartments, which are in large part rented by grad students. Also, there's no reason to feel compelled to live in university housing - in fact, it's almost certainly cheaper not to.

Are you in the GSAS halls? I'm aware of Harvard's apartments but it looks like you rent the entire apartment and look for roommates on your own, unless I misunderstood. I know at Columbia (unless you're looking for a 1br or studio), you're assigned to and paying for a room inside a 2br or 3br apartment of your choice. I don't live in the US and will probably be on a different continent for the summer, so I'm going to have to go with the simplest process possible that won't involve me having to visit before the big move, so it looks like the residence halls are it. I don't think it'll be awful and it seems like a great way to get to know people in other grad programs and professional schools, but I don't think it's ideal either.

[TMP]

It's not terribly uncommon for professors who are being hired into senior positions to bring graduate students with them. At my undergrad a professor I was close to was new in my senior year, she had come from respectable big state school to big name big state school into a named chair bringing a 3rd or 4th year grad student with her.

My sisters' adviser moved late in her time from one Ivy to another and continued advising her disertation, while she remained at her original department. So your adviser getting a better job doesn't mean you lose them.

Hmm... yes... except I'd really like a Yale degree if possible

[New England Nat]

Hmm... yes... except I'd really like a Yale degree if possible

Yeah, well, all other things being basically equal I ended up going for a Princeton degree versus a Cornell degree for those kinds of reasons. I still to this day feel kind of mercenary about it.

[New England Nat]

So to try and help let people know how I can help them I come from a family of academics so have a wide range of knowledge of how the world works. I have specific knowledge of about a half dozen institutions and could probably give you in depth thoughts on UNC, Stony Brook, Rutgers, Cornell, Princeton, Yale, Penn and have some tid bits here and there from other places.

Also anyone who has a specialty in history of science, technology, medicine or environmnetal history.

Feel free to PM me. I'm glad to help.

[Sparky]

Are you in the GSAS halls? I'm aware of Harvard's apartments but it looks like you rent the entire apartment and look for roommates on your own, unless I misunderstood. I know at Columbia (unless you're looking for a 1br or studio), you're assigned to and paying for a room inside a 2br or 3br apartment of your choice. I don't live in the US and will probably be on a different continent for the summer, so I'm going to have to go with the simplest process possible that won't involve me having to visit before the big move, so it looks like the residence halls are it. I don't think it'll be awful and it seems like a great way to get to know people in other grad programs and professional schools, but I don't think it's ideal either.

Safferz (and anyone, really), if you are wanting to find a roommate so you can share an apartment or whatnot, one thing to do is to contact your future department, and maybe even related departments. Say you're looking for a roommate, preferably another PhD student/same gender/different gender (basically any absolutely essential criteria) and ask if they'll forward the e-mail to people likely falling into said pool. My dept always circulates a handful of these e-mails each spring, along with flyers for off-campus housing possibilities.

[pudewen]

this is probably a stupid question, and i know it depends on cost of living, but do people (at least the single, unmarried ones) in phd programs typically live with roommates? (i'm coming from another grad program where a lot of people live alone, so i'm just wondering what the deal is.)

It probably depends on where you live. If you're in an expensive city like Boston or New York, then yes, you'll almost certainly live with roommates if you want to live somewhere affordable. But if you're in somewhere cheaper, it may be more common for people to live on their own. I certainly noticed when visiting schools as an admitted student that Johns Hopkins students, for instance, were more likely to have their own places than Harvard students (I don't think any of my unmarried colleages who aren't in the residence halls don't have roommates).

Are you in the GSAS halls? I'm aware of Harvard's apartments but it looks like you rent the entire apartment and look for roommates on your own, unless I misunderstood. I know at Columbia (unless you're looking for a 1br or studio), you're assigned to and paying for a room inside a 2br or 3br apartment of your choice. I don't live in the US and will probably be on a different continent for the summer, so I'm going to have to go with the simplest process possible that won't involve me having to visit before the big move, so it looks like the residence halls are it. I don't think it'll be awful and it seems like a great way to get to know people in other grad programs and professional schools, but I don't think it's ideal either.

I actually am in one of the GSAS halls, for the same reasons you suggest you might do it (it was simply the easiest thing logistically). I wasn't aware that other schools did what you say Columbia does (none of my friends there have arrangements like that, so I'd never heard about it), which does sound preferable. But Sparky's right about finding roommates - if you'd strongly prefer to be in an apartment, there are perfectly reasonable ways to arrange it prior to arriving on campus.

As for my opinion of the GSAS halls, I think you have basically a correct impression. It's nice to meet people who don't do exactly the same things I do - and I actually have made quite a few friends from other departments through them. They're also quite convenient (located close to classes, libraries, etc). But there are annoyances - sharing a kitchen with a large number of people, for instance - and I really feel like I'm at a point in my life where I want to live more like an actual adult, which means not being in a dorm. In the end, I think I'm happy that I did it for a year, but I'll be glad to move out next year.

[Sparky]

this is probably a stupid question, and i know it depends on cost of living, but do people (at least the single, unmarried ones) in phd programs typically live with roommates? (i'm coming from another grad program where a lot of people live alone, so i'm just wondering what the deal is.)

I live on campus right now (not at Harvard, BTW), and all of the grad student housing here is multiple people in one house/apartment, with private bedrooms. As for off-campus--it varies. The best quiet housing around here, especially relatively close to campus but not notoriously undergrad-dominated, tends to be rented *houses* rather than apartments (and there aren't all that many 2-bedroom houses, which surprised me), so it is not unusual, here, for unpartnered grad students to have roommates. Even among apartment complexes here most of the nicer ones are largely 2-bedroom!

On the other hand, I did my MA in a place that pretends it is a city, and very few unpartnered grads that I knew of had roommates. So maybe it's a function of the local housing market?

FWIW, I like having a roommate, as in one. Since we're both up at crazy hours working, when one of us just has to vent for two minutes we can do this and then get right back to reading. There are times during the end of the semester when that is my primary social contact. . But I have also lived in a larger unit, and it really is tough sharing one refrigerator (and worse, one freezer) among four adults!

[Gene Parmesan]

So here's a question for everyone:

I've planned my trips to visit schools. From what I've heard from others, it seems likely that they'll ask me if and what other offers I've received. To what extent should I share the details of my other offers? Should I provide names of schools? funding offers? POIs? I certainly am not interested in starting some kind of competition just yet as I really want to get a good sense of the departments. Another issue that arises for me is that the POIs at my three schools all know each other. Many are colleagues or former students of a Prof at one of my top choice schools, so I don't know how much to share. Perhaps it would work in my favor financially to discuss these things? I also don't want to be put in an awkward position or conversation (not that I expect these schools to press me hard). At the end of the day, as I mentioned before, I'm really leaning towards one school, but I want to be fair to the others and let them "make their case."

[oseirus]

Are you in the GSAS halls? I'm aware of Harvard's apartments but it looks like you rent the entire apartment and look for roommates on your own, unless I misunderstood. I know at Columbia (unless you're looking for a 1br or studio), you're assigned to and paying for a room inside a 2br or 3br apartment of your choice. I don't live in the US and will probably be on a different continent for the summer, so I'm going to have to go with the simplest process possible that won't involve me having to visit before the big move, so it looks like the residence halls are it. I don't think it'll be awful and it seems like a great way to get to know people in other grad programs and professional schools, but I don't think it's ideal either.

Hey Saff if you decide to not live in the GSAS hall, there are certain areas you can move into close to Cambridge that might be reasonably priced if you look on Craigslist. Somerville is relatively close on the T and you could possibly even bike to school, if live in certain parts of there. Then there's Watertown or Waverly or even Boston, which are again close thanks to public transportation.

[CageFree]

So here's a question for everyone:

I've planned my trips to visit schools. From what I've heard from others, it seems likely that they'll ask me if and what other offers I've received. To what extent should I share the details of my other offers? Should I provide names of schools? funding offers? POIs? I certainly am not interested in starting some kind of competition just yet as I really want to get a good sense of the departments. Another issue that arises for me is that the POIs at my three schools all know each other. Many are colleagues or former students of a Prof at one of my top choice schools, so I don't know how much to share. Perhaps it would work in my favor financially to discuss these things? I also don't want to be put in an awkward position or conversation (not that I expect these schools to press me hard). At the end of the day, as I mentioned before, I'm really leaning towards one school, but I want to be fair to the others and let them "make their case."

If they really want you, they will find extra cash for you. I was admitted very early to Davis and they offered me a great support package. They told me that if there were any other offers that I was considering where money was an issue, I should let them know. At the time I had no other offers yet --Pitt came in on Friday--but after telling them some concerns I had they gave me extra research money for the summer in addition to what I'd been guaranteed, and reduced my workload for one year, with no difference in support.

I don't know that you have to divulge the specific schools (unless asked), but mentioning it casually might get you a little extra support... and while it feels a bit mercenary (at least for me) to play them up, truth is, even a $1K difference per year is a lot when you're in a graduate program.

[CageFree]

Anyone else with more than one offer feel guilty about turning one down? I'm a people-pleaser type and I will have to turn down one, maybe two offers. I feel horrible about it... I developed good relationships with POIs (some I even spoke to on the phone, others I had several email exchanges with) and the idea of having to say no after everything is just killing me. I know they are used to it but I would like to still be able to have some kind of networking connection with them even after I turn down the offer, and don't know how to word it.

[TMP]

If they really want you, they will find extra cash for you. I was admitted very early to Davis and they offered me a great support package. They told me that if there were any other offers that I was considering where money was an issue, I should let them know. At the time I had no other offers yet --Pitt came in on Friday--but after telling them some concerns I had they gave me extra research money for the summer in addition to what I'd been guaranteed, and reduced my workload for one year, with no difference in support.

I don't know that you have to divulge the specific schools (unless asked), but mentioning it casually might get you a little extra support... and while it feels a bit mercenary (at least for me) to play them up, truth is, even a $1K difference per year is a lot when you're in a graduate program.

I agree. Be vague at first. They are likely aware of others' standard funding packages as you're not going to be the first applicant to apply to this group of schools. If they press quite hard, then go ahead and give some details, especially if you win a big fellowship.

They are likely already aware that they're each other competition if you say that they're in the same sub-field and are colleagues. When you're in this situation, you will hardly lose. Only one person/program will definitely gain you but you will not lose the others as they will become your mentors and colleagues down the road . They will have other opportunities to work with you, especially as you start writing your dissertation.

My "other" POI (those of you already aware of my funding situation) was very keen to know of any other offers that I have. She said, "...and please do discuss your various offers with me." At first, I thought she just wanted to be a mentor and help me think about where I want to go. Then over time I realized that she wanted me VERY badly and just needed to know who else is bidding on me so she can find extra money. I tipped her off that I had received a "very generous offer of five-year fellowship..." The response was rather interesting- mainly kept a calm front, urged me to wait a few more weeks, etc.

And yes, I agree with teachgrad, another $1,000 can help quite immensely. You'll find that summer support may not be as much as you want it to be, especially if your work is not based in the US and you may have to fund some of the trip yourself.

[Gene Parmesan]

Thanks for the insight, teachgrad and ticklemepink! I'm really honored with the fellowship nominations and offers from both schools, so its hard for me to think it could get sweeter. But I do have certain concerns about funding that have been coming up recently, and your advice will help me approach those discussions with more ease.

Anyone else with more than one offer feel guilty about turning one down? I'm a people-pleaser type and I will have to turn down one, maybe two offers. I feel horrible about it... I developed good relationships with POIs (some I even spoke to on the phone, others I had several email exchanges with) and the idea of having to say no after everything is just killing me. I know they are used to it but I would like to still be able to have some kind of networking connection with them even after I turn down the offer, and don't know how to word it.

Yes, I'm feeling this too. I really want to remain in contact with these professors from other schools because they are generating work that continue to shape my interests.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Gene Parmesan

[New England Nat]

Don't dwell too much about making the people you turn down feel badly. There might be some awkward feelings yes, but these are professionals and they will get over it. You may in the future still work with them (many institutions allow or require outside readers for disertations). Turn down the offer by whatever proceedure the school outlines in their paperwork. If the proceedure isn't clear contact the program administrator or department administrator and ask them how you should do it.

After that (so that they can't try and talk you out of it), write the PoIs an email. Inform them very directly that you have decided to turn down the offer because you recieved more favorable offer(s) from University X and University Y. Or that you have chosen to attend University Z. Don't dwell too much on why you have made that decision. Thank them for their time over the past year and tell them that you look forward to working with them in the future or speaking with them at conferences.

99 times out of 100 they will respond with a very encouraging email.

Edited February 19, 2012 by New England Nat

[New England Nat]

It's very important to understand that at this point you have turned from someone who is trying to sell yourself to them, into a very shinny object they want very much. It's a hard transition to make in your mind (and once you sign the acceptence you are back to being just a normal student to them).

In general there is no reason not to tell people who your other offers are and what their general terms are. It will only help you. Either they will be able to match, or they wont. If they can't match the money, you should at least give them a chance to make their sales pitch on non monitary grounds.

[TMP]

I should really ask, I don't know who the person is, but why are some of these posts getting "thumbs down", not just my own? Anyone who reads through this, whether have offers or not, should be happy for all of us in having this privilege to make decisions. If you don't like what we are saying, why bother reading? (there a purpose to why Goldie created a separate thread) Even if you just have one choice, you should read what we are thinking as your program will expect you to ask questions anyway. You want to make an informed decision, even if you already know where you're going. You need to be on the same page as your POI and the department. The last thing you want to do as you finish up your first year is find out that the summer support is not for first year students, or you MUST TA two courses in the fall, or whatever. Clear expectations will set you up well for your first year and henceforth.

And if someone didn't like my thoughts on the job market, then, well, I really don't know what to think as that is an important factor to consider. I should think long-term, not just the short term (such as program requirements, language exams, lifestyle). I am making a huge investment of your time, money and energy to obtain this degree and I might as well get something out of it, may it be a TT job or an adjunct position or something in the government. I want an adviser who will get the job for me, not just someone who simply wants me to come to their program and attach their name to my work. I want a department that will prepare me for the job market out there for historians so that other graduate students and I know what the heck we are doing. That's one of StrangeLight's themes for this year in her advice- she's been sitting on search committees and is telling us what really goes on there. Listen to her and I am listening to her and my former undergraduate professors who have been conducting a lot of SCs in the last few years. I'm listening to them. I want to be that lucky candidate. Seven years may be a long way but time really flies.

And, yes, I know I'm being a little obnoxious with that question of "whatever will I do" but you don't know the full story beyond what you've read for this year and on my signature. There are a lot of complicated things that I don't want to post in a public forum. PM me if you want it and I will tell you the truth. Don't judge the book by its cover.

[oseirus]

I should really ask, I don't know who the person is, but why are some of these posts getting "thumbs down", not just my own? Anyone who reads through this, whether have offers or not, should be happy for all of us in having this privilege to make decisions. If you don't like what we are saying, why bother reading? (there a purpose to why Goldie created a separate thread) Even if you just have one choice, you should read what we are thinking as your program will expect you to ask questions anyway. You want to make an informed decision, even if you already know where you're going. You need to be on the same page as your POI and the department. The last thing you want to do as you finish up your first year is find out that the summer support is not for first year students, or you MUST TA two courses in the fall, or whatever. Clear expectations will set you up well for your first year and henceforth.

And if someone didn't like my thoughts on the job market, then, well, I really don't know what to think as that is an important factor to consider. I should think long-term, not just the short term (such as program requirements, language exams, lifestyle). I am making a huge investment of your time, money and energy to obtain this degree and I might as well get something out of it, may it be a TT job or an adjunct position or something in the government. I want an adviser who will get the job for me, not just someone who simply wants me to come to their program and attach their name to my work. I want a department that will prepare me for the job market out there for historians so that other graduate students and I know what the heck we are doing. That's one of StrangeLight's themes for this year in her advice- she's been sitting on search committees and is telling us what really goes on there. Listen to her and I am listening to her and my former undergraduate professors who have been conducting a lot of SCs in the last few years. I'm listening to them. I want to be that lucky candidate. Seven years may be a long way but time really flies.

And, yes, I know I'm being a little obnoxious with that question of "whatever will I do" but you don't know the full story beyond what you've read for this year and on my signature. There are a lot of complicated things that I don't want to post in a public forum. PM me if you want it and I will tell you the truth. Don't judge the book by its cover.

Don't take the vote down personal ... nerves are getting frayed so folks who haven't heard anything or have a few rejections are feeling despondent ... you did raise a valid point about your predicament ... some people are having a problem about picking a school b/c I don't think anyone really pictures getting into multiple dream school and having to make that decision ... @ the end of the day though you have to remember those schools turn down other people so it's not like they aren't above disappointing others so you'll be fine when you turn them down ... as long as you are polite w/your declining letter