The Guardian: Why You Shouldn't Do Postgrad

[ekim12]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2012/feb/27/why-you-shouldnt-do-postgrad?INTCMP=SRCH

i realize that there must be a hundred similar worried threads/ posts about news articles that discourage postgrad education since the creation of thegradcafe, but i thought the topic worth reviving, esp. in the humanities board, since it's been on my mind/ i'm too lazy to search history.

the guardian blog post isn't very informative, but the comments section is interesting.

commenters seem split 50/50. some find the article depressing and lament how education isn't valued for education's sake. others agree with the article that an MA isn't really worth it--the returns you get for what you paid = 0. in fact, if you're not interested in staying within academia, employers might look negatively on a year's MA since they think you're overqualified. this worries me.

i'm just after an MA in Eng Lit in the UK and really unsure of pursuing a PhD especially after all of the discouraging panels, articles, stories i've heard about the high risk of unemployment, excess supply of phds, crazy tenure process, high debt, delayed gratification while friends achieve professional success, difficulty having a family, and etc. Not to be a damper or anything. so i'm trying the MA as a sort of trial. don't think i'm ready to commit so many years as a PhD nor have i developed a highly specific research interest yet... that's why i liked the British system so much since it encourages first a (terminal) MA before PhD.

thegradcafe is full of people who are intent on pursuing a PhD/MA. so i'm curious: what personally motivates you, knowing all of the risks, to continue onto grad school? have you taken time off since undergrad or are you entering postgrad directly?

[rainy_day]

Personally, I'm working to earn a PhD with the hopes that I get a job at the end of this. I'm committed to building the strongest professional application I can, as well as the strongest dissertation. I think we would all do well to consider professionalization from day 1.

That being said, I'm fully aware that this might not end in a job the way I want. I accept that as a possible outcome, and I think we can't be naive about that reality. I want the degree for the degree's sake. I'm going to bust my ass to get a job, and if it doesn't work out the way I hope, then I'll move on.

[Fiona Thunderpaws]

I was very, very torn about pursuing a Ph.D. for several years. It wasn't something I envisioned myself doing when I started college, but I found I really enjoyed the work. I ultimately decided to go for it because I knew if I didn't try, I would always wonder "what if?"

That being, I had some very strict parameters for myself when I did apply. The first and more important of which was that I did not want to accrue any debt AT ALL. I would not attend a program unless it was fully funded. The second of which was that I had to honestly ask myself what I would do with the degree since TT jobs are so far and few between. And honestly, if I end up applying my degree towards a different ends, I decided I would be fine with that. In the end though, like Rainy said, I want the degree for the degree's sake. If it helps me get my dream job, that would be an awesome bonus!

Of course, my family thinks I'm crazy for all this.

[anxious_aspirant]

Maybe these articles will deter enough scholars (maybe the ones whose hearts aren't in it?) so as to give US more opportunity in the job market.

Then again, my idealistic subject-bias makes me believe that anyone who devotes her/himself to literature will be an infinitely better person...

[marlowe]

I can't see myself doing anything else. This is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

[xfgdfrmgpo332]

I can't see myself doing anything else.

This.

[anxious_aspirant]

Furthermore, who are these supposed employers who will look negatively upon an advanced degree? McDonalds? B/c this certainly isn't true for anyone who wants to teach (I'm looking at this from a Humanities perspective since this is posted in the Rhet/comp thread). There are some [usually public high] schools that do not want to hire MA's or PhD's b/c they have to pay them more, but most states either prefer advanced degrees or require that a teacher get one within a certain # of years after being hired; this is certainly true of private schools, who nearly always prefer those with advanced degrees. And, of course, if you want to teach at any level above high school, you need an advanced degree.

This part is quite true and a huge conflict for me, as a public HS teacher. Got an MA? Great! We'll hire you! Second MA? PhD? Couldn't be bothered. You're too expensive. And outside of a university, most teaching jobs are public. I'm also at a school that consistently horrifies me with its careless hiring practices. No one seems to value advanced experience in one's field.

I apply to PhD programs knowing that I might never be able to return to my current profession. Not saying that's a goal, but one does like to keep doors open...

[TripWillis]

NOW they tell me. Thanks a lot, Guardian.

Well, wonder what I'm going to do now that that's cleared up... I could go back to waiting tables:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPEsOg3xyGE

[eriksmegs]

I'm going to graduate school because I know in my gut it's what I'm meant to do.

[antecedent]

I'm going to grad school because I want to do it more than I want to do anything else. And I cause I want to say fuck the haters.

ETA: I want to stay in academia because it's the only place where people get my jokes.

Edited February 29, 2012 by antecedant

[Sparky]

The author really doesn't address the fact that, for a lot of grad students, grad school is a job; at least, it is for me. It's the only thing that I could get right now that will pay me, albeit poorly, but it's better than nothing. Moreover, there are very few grad students who are taking on mountains of debt for their PhD's; most get TA-ships/ stipends, tuition remission and health benefits.

Assistantship/fellowship-holding PhD students are a TINY minority of the graduate student population. Even within the humanities, there are *vastly* more M* students than PhD students, and just think about how frantically people are looking around for funded MA programs right now.

But let's face it--(nearly) everyone on TGC is either in grad school or desperate to be thus. We drank the Kool-Aid. Willingly. We are not exactly the target audience for anything that even *questions* the value of grad school.

[Historiogaffe]

I'm fortunate enough that the only other career I can see myself doing is A. one I want to incorporate into my graduate studies and, should it materialize, eventual academic career, and B. relies on portfolio rather than résumé, so those in the biz need not and generally don't advertise accreditation. So I guess I'm also fortunate in that none of my other potential career paths pays well,* either. Ha ha. At least I managed to part with the print journalism dream with relative painlessness.

*Or "pay well," because prescriptivist ideals be damned, that's perfectly grammatical.

Edited February 29, 2012 by speakwrite_

[Sparky]

I will also reiterate that getting into grad school was the equivalent, for me, of getting a job: no one had to convince me of anything--I didn't drink any Kool Aid and, consequently, was not riding a euphoric sugar-high when I applied; it was a realistic and calculated decision rather than an idealistic whim, which I think is true for a lot of people.

If you thought through the process, put some effort into researching programs, paid the application fees, jumped through all the hoops, know the minuses, and still want to go to grad school--you drank the Kool-Aid.

[Fiona Thunderpaws]

Lastly, the author states something akin to "I did it and I am glad that I did itbut don't do it, and here's why...." at the beginning of the article, which has a the very provocative title of Why you shouldn't do postgrad. Really? If you truly think that something is not worth the effort or if you are sincerely trying to warn someone against a course of action, you don't start by stating that you are glad that you did it.

More than one professor who tried to talk me out of grad school, and I always asked them if they regretted their decision to go to grad school, and the answer was always no. Ultimately, this inspired me to apply even more! It is by far the worst argument anyone can give against going to grad school. At least once you've committed to the application process people tend to stop nay-saying you... Kind of like how when you're friend starts dating someone new and they're terrible, but once they've made themselves an item, you can't really badmouth the new partner anymore.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Fiona Thunderpaws

[lyonessrampant]

Ours is not the only discipline experiencing this situation (of potential joblessness after extended education). The benefit, however, is that we get PAID to get that degree. Granted, putting six or more years into a degree and not getting the job of your dreams at the end can be frustrating. Similarly, unless you're one of the lucky few who get the $25,000/yr plus offers from the Ivy league or well-endowed private schools, you're living well below the poverty line. However, current statistics implicate--between reported unemployed, under-employed, and long-term unemployed who no longer report--between 17 and 20% of Americans as facing worse economic situations and without the hiring potential that a Ph.D. can give you. Look, not everyone gets a TT job. Not everyone gets to teach at an R1, but you know what? Not everyone WANTS to teach at an R1. Community colleges, liberal arts schools, non-flag ship state universities, prep schools for high school, and public schools (though you might want to underplay that Ph.D. on those apps) all need teachers, and if you're willing to diversify your job hunting, there are options. Additionally, focus on doing internships and adding graduate minors in fields like museum studies, writing studies, rhet/comp, etc., or really other fields besides your primary focus to demonstrate a diversified portfolio and skill set. Bottomline: current statistics for the average MA/PhD applicant (of age 22-35 or so) aren't great, especially if you're on the younger side of that range. If you get a funded offer. . .you've got a job, and like any job, you can choose to LEAVE that job and that is more of an option than many people have. The statistics for actually completing the Ph.D. (especially in 5 or less years) are awful, and they are even worse (factoring in those who elect to leave the PhD program) for getting a TT job a year or two from completion of degree, but based on a research project I was involved in this past semester, at least for the stats I reviewed for my program and generally nationally, most people who finish the PhD do get a job. There are options long term. Prepare yourself for professionalization and consider multiple options and you can make your degree work for you. All of that practical stuff aside, I love what I'm doing and I get paid to read books about stuff I love, write papers, and work with some brilliant undergrads who are often eager and excited to think about new things. That's fun. . .and WAY better than the "real world" jobs I've had for years.

[vordhosbntwin]

Yeah, I completely disagree with this, at least within my field, which is the only field to which I can speak; I have never met an unfunded PhD student in my field. In fact, meeting one would be like spotting Bigfoot. However, I know that for other fields, funding is the exception rather than the rule. But, again, I can only speak to the fields with which I have experience, and nearly all of them offer funded MA's and PhD's.

And for what it's worth, all of the programs to which I applied were funded MA's--I had no trouble finding them with a little research--and I have already been accepted to a funded MA receiving a stipend and tuition remission even though I am not really a competitive candidate (the fact that I applied to MA programs rather than PhD programs is evidence of that fact).

However, your comment brings up a great question as to at whom this article is directed. As it is, it's very general and I am sure that it applies to a large portion of grad students. But, again, what I don't like about it is that it also does not apply to a large number of students. Hence, its across-the-board statement of, "Don't do it!" is a bit irresponsible.

I will also reiterate that getting into grad school was the equivalent, for me, of getting a job: no one had to convince me of anything--I didn't drink any Kool Aid and, consequently, was not riding a euphoric sugar-high when I applied; it was a realistic and calculated decision rather than an idealistic whim, which I think is true for a lot of people.

well, comp lit is different it seems in that there are so few programs - and of course there are plenty of unfunded comp lit MAs. a lot of the big schools don't offer MAs, and those that do, e.g. UPenn and Columbia, don't offer funding. i mean, how many people get into PhD programs for comp lit each year, less than 500? idk.

[lyonessrampant]

And factor in health insurance and tuition. Schools invest over 100K on each student they admit. They love us

[thestage]

And, yes, a 15K stipend, benefits and tuition remission beats working the 20K dead-end job at the Macy's Clinique counter for the rest of your life. Even if you end up working that dead-end job after you graduate, you had seven years when you didn't have to work it!

While this is certainly true, a large part of me can't help but realize that the fact that this is an actual, serious argument for the procurement of a PhD, and one that people aren't likely to question, is incredibly depressing.

[lyonessrampant]

Again, I'll have to get my bio to source links, but if you're not motivated to get a Ph.D. for externally economic reasons, well, I don't think you belong in the field. There are other places. . .like business or something. . .where you can go and get immediate payoffs. A school based on an acceptance determines a Ph.D's worth in the neighborhood of $50000+. For some fields, that's not a lot, but my partner is in law. . .and don't even get me started on how fucked up that field is right now. I think the fact we've got some kind of income for 6 years is worth the gamble. It's not like you can't leave to go do something else. HOWEVER, if that's not what you think, thestage, what the fuck are you doing applying to grad school, let along considerin any offers you might have? If you are sure you'll decline, why not decline now and give those offers to someone who is more certain that this might be their chosen profession?

I edit to add that that 50K number is per year. . again, that isn't a huge number.. but given current job stats, it isn't insubstantial either.

Edited March 1, 2012 by lyonessrampant

[thestage]

1. Tough to decline zero offers!

2. You're arguing for me, not against me. It's not like the fact that PhD stipends are barely above the poverty line, and that job placement is pretty bad in general and completely awful when compared to the work required of the degree is some line of argument I'm hearing here for the first time. One of the predominant lines of thought in this thread (and one evinced by the post I quoted) is "well, the greater employment picture is so bad, and intellect is valued so little, that, if nothing else, going to grad school offers assurance that I'm at least not going to die of starvation or whittle my brain away to nothing in the next six years." That is, you'll note, largely an "externally economic" line of thinking, and I think you'd either have to be insane, a clinical optimist, or an undergrad freshman to not find a note of despair in there. Someone else mentioned that even professors, among them ones that don't at all regret their decision, are strongly urging people to stay away from grad school (and by association, the profession tied to it) under most any circumstance. According to you, I guess they should resign. The point here is that the situation is not fantastic, and that prospective grad students and prospective professional academics have a tendency to romanticize their circumstances and readily assume the mantle of the victim, neither of which strike me as particularly ideal, and both of which speak to problems inside and outside the academy. But I've said this all here before, and none of it is new to anyone anyway.

Edited March 1, 2012 by thestage

[JElliott]

Well. Here is my weird account. I don't want to be a professor, so maybe I'm the odd duck around here.

Bluntly: I don't have and never had a lot of money, and I have had shit luck my entire life with jobs. What I've always been good at and lucky with (to some extent -- external scholarships often ignore me like my applications smell funny) is school. My MA was funded, I got a job there working on a magazine and got some freelance editing work (working in publishing is my dream job), and we had funding available for conference-going. For someone with crap luck in this economy, an MA worked out very well. And I had a hell of a lot of fun (along with the stress, of course) while I was doing it.

The PhD, in my mind, is another possible four years that I could have a steady income, a roof over my head, work in a field I love, and get to go to places and meet cool people. Do I intend to write articles and research and get job experience and do meaningful academic things? Of course, I love doing that stuff. Will I be upset if that still ends up with me working outside academia, for not so much money? Nah! It'd be awesome to end up editing somewhere, academic or otherwise, but if not, I think the journey to me will have been worth it.

So yeah. I've read a million articles (and had some fairly cynical profs) that tell me that, especially in my field, getting a PhD will not be worth it. But I feel like they present that in a context where they assume that I'm looking for higher education in order to have a means towards a higher income (particularly as a professor), which is really not the case for me. I like academia because it allows me to have an income AT ALL while doing something I love. When I get to the end of that trail, I'd love for it to continue -- but if not, I don't intend to be pissed off or surprised. I intend to be educated and to have made the best of several years of my life.

[thestage]

I'd also like to add that the $50k a year thing is bogus. I don't care if the school thinks the educational opportunity provided by an admission is theoretically worth 25k a year in and of itself, because it flatly is not. If it were, they'd charge the price and people would pay. The only things actually attached to that nebulous dollar sign from the perspective of a school are the time of the professors that teach graduate classes and advise dissertation writers--and considering their salaries it sure as hell doesn't add up to $25k a year per student (to say nothing of the professors themselves, who may or may not feel like they personally and/or professionally derive some benefit from the work they do with graduate students, or of other things tied to their jobs and thus their salaries, such as the research work they do, or the teaching of undergraduate classes)--and possibly some amount related to the money sunk into libraries and the like. As it stands, they pay us instead because they realize two things:

1. Graduate students actually have to eat food or they die.

2. Some combination of producing a PhD holder and producing the research accomplished by a PhD holder is of economic value to the University.

The "tuition remission" thing is a joke. What are they remitting if no one ever actually pays?

I would be excited and honored to be accepted by and attend a school, and to work toward a PhD, but I'm not going to starry-eyes it and relinquish all self-worth to bow before the institution or the profession. For the prevalence of marx and marx derived thinking in the humanities, you'd think I wouldn't be alone in this.

Edited March 1, 2012 by thestage

[ekim12]

Haha, I did say that the article wasn't very informative. I was originally going to say 'not very good' but was thinking about her feelings if she ever came across this site... But since she's preaching to the opposite of a choir (anti-choir?) here, I suppose that was pointless.

With many of the teachers and profs I've talked to, the PhD is a calculated decision because yes, it's not about immediate payoff. There's a lot of waiting and compromise involved in terms of job location, family, and etc. Thestage, I love this rationale for funding:

Graduate students actually have to eat food or they die.

Even with funding, the newly hired profs warn us that we'll be eating ramen while friends are eating proper food... (Nothing against ramen, but let's say it's a smaller symptom of a larger problem/ synecdoche). Yet some of the reasons people have mentioned for pursuing the PhD--can't imagine doing anything else, enjoy the academic community, research my interests, write write write--resonate with me. I should remember all this as I take my 'arts & economics' course. That's pretty discouraging stuff. While academia isn't exactly the arts labor market, some of the economic theories behind the oversupply of artists apply.

But I prefer to consider how this still applies

Ful thredbare was his overeste courtepy;

For he hadde gete him yet no benefice,

Ne was so worldly for to have office.

For him was levere have at his beddes heed

Twenty bookes, clad in blak or reed,

Of Aristotle and his philosophye,

Than robes riche, or fithele, or gay sautrye.

But al be that he was a philosophre,

Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre!

But al that he mighte of his frendes hente,

On bookes and on lerninge he it spente,

And bisily gan for the soules preye

Of hem that yaf him wherewith to scoleye.

[Phil Sparrow]

Duh. Scholars are poor because Mercury and Cupid pissed off the Fates. So saith Chris Marlowe.

A word of caution: I see a lot of people saying, "Well, at least I'll be employed for the next X number of years, and I'll be having fun!" (or some equivalent thereof.) The time of your life? Ah, no. I LOVE what I do. I am so, so, so lucky to do it. It is wonderful to make scholarship my job. I've done other jobs, and the worst days here are better than the best days in anything else. But it's rarely fun, and it's often despairing. I work 12-16 hours a day, seven days a week. I live with my partner, and yet we sometimes go days without seeing each other because I'm working. I feel stupid and worthless 80+% of the time. Dealing with crushing rejection is like brushing my teeth at this point. It's routine. And I'm racking up a fairly successful record, compared to my peers! Many, many people burn out because they didn't go in with their eyes open--not about the job market, but about how horrible graduate school can be even while it is amazing. (And this continues until you get tenure. Woohoo!) It's basically institutionalized hazing. And I say this at a school famous (notorious?) for its lovey-dovey support system, and I have much better funding then most humanities PhD students. So, have at it, you guys!

P.S. Sparky, I too have tasted the Kool-Aid. And it is sweet.

[anxious_aspirant]

Dealing with crushing rejection is like brushing my teeth at this point.

I suppose this could be a good justification for the application process being so soul-crushing. Gives one a taste early on. Though, like you, Phil, I hope the love of the pursuit will overshadow the dejection, ultimately.

Anyone else have parents/family/friends who try to talk you out of it? The bigger debate, as elucidated by The Guardian, reaches home a bit too personally for my liking. I have the kind of parents who aren't academic at all, so they don't really get the "love of subject" part, and also think that at 24, I should have a significant retirement fund already in the works. I like that they've made me responsible and forward-thinking, but there has to be a point at which one thinks too forwardly...right?

What I've always been good at and lucky with (to some extent -- external scholarships often ignore me like my applications smell funny) is school.

Same here. If the possibility of career-scholarship is so unrealistic (hypothetically speaking, not saying it is), the whole tradition of 16 years of schooling is pretty cruel! Those of us who are at home there, succeed there, and want to contribute to it as working adults should have some avenue by which to do so. In that case, I have to think of dedication to the PhD-track as somehow noble, financially beneficial or no.