Fall 2013 Applicants?

[theregalrenegade]

I'll need to figure out how to not take rejection (so) personally.

This, too.

[czesc]

Hi all,

First post. Still figuring out whether I definitely want to throw my hat in the ring this cycle. Skipped last time because of other issues (I currently work as a lawyer and had to go through the whole bar exam process, which left me rather exhausted). This time it's primarily worries about the job market, both the academic one and nonacademic options after being cloistered in the Ivory Tower while doing my doctorate...sigh. I know I'd absolutely enjoy being a history PhD student more than almost anything; I just wish I knew whether it's the best decision for what will come after. Assuming I can't pull off the coveted TT position after awhile, I'd be looking at trying to reenter the nonacademic job market after ten years of not-quite-so-relevant experience.

Assuming that this (the PhD) has been a longtime goal, and that I plan to get off the lawyer train anyway and doing so will probably involve another degree that I can't afford to pay/take out debt for, is this a risk worth taking? I'm not sure my other options are actually much better from a finance point of view and definitely not from a happiness one...

Oh, one other question while I've got your attention: am I hopeless five years out of undergrad with a JD and not a masters? Seems like all of you are coming from MAs and it's very intimidating...

Edited March 22, 2012 by czesc

[oseirus]

Hi all,

First post. Still figuring out whether I definitely want to throw my hat in the ring this cycle. Skipped last time because of other issues (I currently work as a lawyer and had to go through the whole bar exam process, which left me rather exhausted). This time it's primarily worries about the job market, both the academic one and nonacademic options after being cloistered in the Ivory Tower while doing my doctorate...sigh. I know I'd absolutely enjoy being a history PhD student more than almost anything; I just wish I knew whether it's the best decision for what will come after. Assuming I can't pull off the coveted TT position after awhile, I'd be looking at trying to reenter the nonacademic job market after ten years of not-quite-so-relevant experience.

Assuming that this (the PhD) has been a longtime goal, and that I plan to get off the lawyer train anyway and doing so will probably involve another degree that I can't afford to pay/take out debt for, is this a risk worth taking? I'm not sure my other options are actually much better from a finance point of view and definitely not from a happiness one...

Oh, one other question while I've got your attention: am I hopeless five years out of undergrad with a JD and not a masters? Seems like all of you are coming from MAs and it's very intimidating...

I can't answer any of your questions w/a thoughtful answer except with a question of my own ... how sensitive are you to lawyer jokes?

On an unrelated note, I don't think you need to have an MA to a be a strong candidate. I mean the SUPERSTAR of this past application undoubtedly was Safferz and I don't believe she had an MA but she got into all the ivies she applied to. I would say go back and read this post here because there are some good hints relayed in there for you and for anybody else applying

[czesc]

Feel free to bring on the lawyer jokes as I've never really wanted to be a lawyer (law school was motivated by vaguer goals of legal academia / maybe government service...I had no idea how very specifically vocational it would be).

Thanks for the link; I'll definitely peruse it. I guess my concern with not having a masters is twofold: not only will I be competing against masters students who have an extra credential in the field, but since I've been away from the formal study of history for awhile (unless you count legal history in law school), it might put me at a disadvantage not to start from there. Unfortunately I also don't have academic publications /conference experience like Safferz does (I have published essays in a national magazine in Canada but I don't think that's anywhere close to relevant).

Here's what I do have:

- Ivy undergrad (high GPA) / Ivy law school (unclear GPA thanks to weird grading system change in the middle of my time there)

- Honors thesis and award from undergrad history dept.

- Potential recommendation from / association with prof who's well-networked in my field

- Languages: I do work in German, so I would assume it is sufficient for admissions purposes. I also have over a year of Arabic behind me, mostly from law school but also from experience in the Middle East. I am wondering if I can claim some basic reading knowledge of French since I used some in my thesis? I studied it some earlier in life and can usually puzzle it out when necessary. I studied Latin in high school but only for translation purposes and am probably incredibly rusty - wonder if this is worth noting at all.

- Awhile back, spoke with DGS/POI (soon to be head of dept) at program at same school as law school who was very encouraging of my interest areas and said he liked law students. Good friend already works with said POI on interdisciplinary law/history doctorate. Unfortunately admissions rates for history at said school are next to impossible.

- Zero points for diversity

What do people think?

Edited March 22, 2012 by czesc

[oseirus]

Feel free to bring on the lawyer jokes as I've never really wanted to be a lawyer (law school was motivated by vaguer goals of legal academia / maybe government service...I had no idea how very specifically vocational it would be).

Thanks for the link; I'll definitely peruse it. I guess my concern with not having a masters is twofold: not only will I be competing against masters students who have an extra credential in the field, but since I've been away from the formal study of history for awhile (unless you count legal history in law school), it might put me at a disadvantage not to start from there. Unfortunately I also don't have academic publications /conference experience like Safferz does (I have published essays in a national magazine in Canada but I don't think that's anywhere close to relevant).

Here's what I do have:

- Ivy undergrad (high GPA) / Ivy law school (unclear GPA thanks to weird grading system change in the middle of my time there)

- Honors thesis and award from undergrad history dept.

- Potential recommendation from / association with prof who's well-networked in my field

- Languages: I do work in German, so I would assume it is sufficient for admissions purposes. I also have over a year of Arabic behind me, mostly from law school but also from experience in the Middle East. I am wondering if I can claim some basic reading knowledge of French since I used some in my thesis? I studied it some earlier in life and can usually puzzle it out when necessary. I studied Latin in high school but only for translation purposes and am probably incredibly rusty - wonder if this is worth noting at all.

- Awhile back, spoke with DGS/POI (soon to be head of dept) at program at same school as law school who was very encouraging of my interest areas and said he liked law students. Good friend already works with said POI on interdisciplinary law/history doctorate. Unfortunately admissions rates for history at said school are next to impossible.

- Zero points for diversity

What do people think?

um I think you are in a GREAT place just hope that you're SOP & LORs are equally stellar ... the basic things that you can control from you're past are in the bag ... now hope that some of the current students who were such life savers like StrangeLight will come in to give real pointers

[theregalrenegade]

@czesc Like Oseirus says, I think your credentials are wonderful. You may even get extra points for coming from a position outside of academia. Experience in the law field, in addition to your earlier accomplishments, could prompt adcoms to see you as a more well-rounded candidate. I would play that angle up in your SOP.

The way I see it...you're the one who's intimidating!

[jogatoronto]

Ok, I think it's time to officially throw my hat in for the Fall 2013 cycle. I'm having a difficult time deciding whether to go for African History or History of Medicine Programs! Luckily there are many months ahead before I have to decide.

[runaway]

- Languages: I do work in German, so I would assume it is sufficient for admissions purposes. I also have over a year of Arabic behind me, mostly from law school but also from experience in the Middle East. I am wondering if I can claim some basic reading knowledge of French since I used some in my thesis? I studied it some earlier in life and can usually puzzle it out when necessary. I studied Latin in high school but only for translation purposes and am probably incredibly rusty - wonder if this is worth noting at all.

... and no Polish??

[Sigaba]

@czesc As a practicing attorney, you already have advanced training and experience in domains of knowledge that will get the attention of admissions committees. I had as a classmate an attorney who had little difficulty earning a master's in history at the Forty Acres. A former mentor of mine, once a promising naval historian, made the transition to law and he's having a successful career in which he wears several hats. (Have we had this conversation before?)

While the transfer of skills from the field of law to history may not end up being a one for one lateral trade off, I think it is important for you to understand that you're farther along than you realize.

In addition to a proven ability to do hard work, you also have a range of experiences and competencies that you might use to your advantage both as an applicant and, later, as a graduate student. As an example, Victor Davis Hansen, a classical/military historian turned political polemicist , drew upon his life experiences as a farmer and presented a reinterpretation of classical warfare. More recently, Jon Tetsuro Sumida, informed by his training as a pianist, offered a remarkable interpretation of the history of American navalist theory and its impact upon the U.S. Navy.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that you should conceptualize the practice of history as an exercise of autobiography. I am simply saying that you've got gear in your tool kit that you can make work if you're willing to put in the time and effort.

HTH.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Sigaba

[czesc]

Thanks, all! This has been really encouraging. It's strange, but just posting here is helping me overcome doubts and makes this process feel more inevitable. I think I'm probably going to go for it. I have a "comfortable" life and it's nowhere near as stressful or awful as it could be in my current profession/this economy, but I feel like I'm just going through the motions and not doing enough of what I love, which is writing and engaging with ideas.

Now I just have to think about whether I want to leave my job at some point and devote myself to the application process full time, or leave that for when this is a more certain thing. I guess it will depend on whether I can carve out enough time for GRE studies / meetings with profs, etc.

runaway - nice catch. Polish was actually my other first language, but my parents made sure it didn't stick because they were afraid I'd grow up not speaking English well enough. I can throw a few words around here and there, but I don't really know enough to carry on a full conversation.

Sigaba - thanks for the good advice. When I started law school, I originally wanted to run straight back to the humanities and the way they're taught and do something completely unrelated to law. I'm mostly glad I waited and have a more mature perspective on this, even if it means I'm an "older" grad student; I'll now almost definitely try to find some way to make my legal education an asset for my application/career.

p.s. maybe I'm just really out of the loop at this point...what is "the Forty Acres"? Made me think of Reconstruction, but sounds like a specific place?

Edited March 23, 2012 by czesc

[runaway]

@czesc - ah! maybe it was because I checked Grad Cafe at 4am, but I laughed for about a full minute when I saw your name Was hoping you'd turn out to be someone in a similar subfield, but we're totally different!

I'd imagine you're starting at a good point in the cycle to start contacting old mentors, getting their advice, and making sure they're in your court. Your background sounds incredibly interesting and I'm sure can prove to be an asset as long as you can convincingly make it so in a SOP.

FWIW, I took the GRE while I was working, and I wish I had started preparing sooner-- not necessarily invested more time, just spread out small amounts of study over a longer period of time. If I had used my subway commute wisely for a few months prior to the test, I think I might have done better and spent less time preparing over all!

[oseirus]

Ok, I think it's time to officially throw my hat in for the Fall 2013 cycle. I'm having a difficult time deciding whether to go for African History or History of Medicine Programs! Luckily there are many months ahead before I have to decide.

If you go the African History route, we have a young lady on here going to Harvard so I am sure you can inbox her for some top notch advise

[jogatoronto]

I also did my undergraduate degree in Canada...this young lady and I are already well acquainted haha. she is my academic hero at the moment.

If you go the African History route, we have a young lady on here going to Harvard so I am sure you can inbox her for some top notch advise

[theregalrenegade]

Hmm...Canada must have a top notch educational system And some amazing scholars!

Edited March 23, 2012 by theregalrenegade

[kyjin]

I also did my undergraduate degree in Canada...

Where in Canada did you go? I'm currently doing my MA at UAlberta.

[oseirus]

I also did my undergraduate degree in Canada...this young lady and I are already well acquainted haha. she is my academic hero at the moment.

Well then my work here is done ... I will now take all the credit for her success and your future success of course

[oseirus]

p.s. maybe I'm just really out of the loop at this point...what is "the Forty Acres"? Made me think of Reconstruction, but sounds like a specific place?

If I am reading that correctly then it is probably a reference to the '40 Acres and a mule' promised to slaves following the end of the Civil War. It is (was?) the name of Spike Lee's production company, which was in reference to said promise.

Thanks, all! This has been really encouraging. It's strange, but just posting here is helping me overcome doubts and makes this process feel more inevitable. I think I'm probably going to go for it. I have a "comfortable" life and it's nowhere near as stressful or awful as it could be in my current profession/this economy, but I feel like I'm just going through the motions and not doing enough of what I love, which is writing and engaging with ideas.

Be forewarned that if you eschew academia and return to your dark arts and mingle with your Slytherin-like brethren and sistern in said practices your ways aren't corrupted by the folks on here. They tend to be generally kind, caring, positive, and overall very supportive. Look to it that you aren't infected by these traits should you once again return to drink from the River Styx and practice Law

[Sigaba]

The Forty Acres is a sobriquet for

[oseirus]

The Forty Acres is a sobriquet for

ooooo I was thisclose!

[CageFree]

Oh, one other question while I've got your attention: am I hopeless five years out of undergrad with a JD and not a masters? Seems like all of you are coming from MAs and it's very intimidating...

Nah. I got into a couple of great programs, with full funding, and I only have a B.A. from a decade ago. Your writing sample and letters of rec carry a LOT of weight... the feedback I've gotten is that my letters were incredibly strong, and so was my writing sample. No mention about my SOP but I imagine I did ok there too.

Edited March 23, 2012 by CageFree

[czesc]

runaway - I assume you're doing Eastern European history? Sorry to disappoint! Despite my ethnicity my interests lean more toward the British Empire. Yes, I'm thinking of starting to contact potential LOR writers soon, probably in April. Should I wait longer to start contacting potential POIs?

oseirus - haha, I'll keep in mind that my capacity for the Dark Arts will have been weakened, though in truth I think I would have probably been the dunce of Slytherin; manipulative legal sliminess has never really been my forte, despite working in the field

It is really unbelievable how supportive this forum feels; I don't remember people being so personally invested in one another on law school admissions fora.

CageFree - thanks! Do you study Argentine history by the way? (basing my inference off your avatar)

Considering everyone is saying how important LORs are, what do you think of the following situations for LOR writers? The first two I will probably ask, the others I would consider as my third...a sort of related question is whether it's a better idea to try to bring in someone from law school, even if they don't have a history background, or to choose all three from time in undergrad, longer ago...

1. Close advisor during undergrad, implicitly encouraged me to go to grad school (started naming advisors, etc.) but seemed sort disappointed when I went to law school instead and, over email after I started law school, seemed to think it was strange that I would still think about pursuing a PhD and wondered if I should do legal history as a law professor with a JD alone.

2. History professor who liked me during undergrad; visited her during my first year of law school and she seemed to think I should have stopped to think about what I was doing with my life before going to law school and then realizing that I sort of wished I were in history instead. Maybe/hopefully I will have convinced her of my seriousness after working in law for two years, but worry I will still come off as diletanttish with this switch. She's also overseas right now...should this be an in person request?

3. Superstar history professor (but more a superstar outside the academy than in, maybe) who wrote me a law school recommendation; will probably not remember me all that well and will require a lot of explanation as to why I was switching gears (especially because I'm concerned he'll think I'm retreating from the potential to use my education for activism). I also wonder to what extent I could stress that he can work off my law school LOR if he still has it, so as not to take up too much of his time?

4. Not-really-history-oriented research advisor with whom I worked a lot during law school who agreed to write me a recommendation in the future, but seemed much more interested in doing so for a law fellowship than for a history PhD, which he sort of thought was a strange idea.

5. JD/PhD-holding legal history professor in law school; was very impressed with my ability to critique scholarly papers during colloquia but for whom I didn't work as closely as the above - i.e. I didn't write a major research paper with him. However, he could serve as a sort of bridge to show continued interest in the field in law school. Also denied tenure recently so I wonder if he will be down on the whole history PhD thing as well...

In sum, I think, with the exception of the last person, they might all be wary of me crossing back over disciplinary lines once I seem to have migrated from one to another...

Edited March 23, 2012 by czesc

[runaway]

czesc, czesc! (oh, I crack myself up...)

ding ding ding! I'm not Polish myself, though, so I completely understand being drawn to a history that you don't have a logical connection to.

I've heard a lot of different things about when to contact POI and I'd love some feedback on that, myself. I was thinking about doing it soon because I'll be living overseas the entire time I'm working on my applications, and won't be able to fly back just to meet with POI in the fall. How early is too early? Will anyone reply during the summer months?

In terms of LORs, I think you need to focus only on those professors who are familiar with your work as an academic, have seen your writing, have heard you engage in discussion, etc. If these are the people who are most skeptical, then see this as an advantage. Schedule a phone or skype chat with them or meet in person and explain how you see your PhD and JD complementing each other in the future. Convince them, then go home and jot down your best arguments for your SOP.

[theregalrenegade]

I know this is a discussion I will have with my advisor at the end of my semester, but I thought I'd bring it up here to see what you all think.

When conducting a search for POIs, do you focus on methodology or subject field? I'm a cultural historian interested in 18th and 19th century British environmental history, but I've found it difficult to find scholars that fit into both categories. So would I concentrate more on seeking out cultural historians or environmental historians?

How early is too early? Will anyone reply during the summer months?

I don't think it would be too early, but you may not get a reply for a while, or ever. You'd have to prepared to resend the message again in the fall if you don't hear anything back. I would hope that professors would have an automatic out of office reply on their email addresses if they don't plan on checking their inboxes over the summer. But this may be wishful thinking on my part.

[Sigaba]

3. Superstar history professor (but more a superstar outside the academy than in, maybe) who wrote me a law school recommendation; will probably not remember me all that well and will require a lot of explanation as to why I was switching gears (especially because I'm concerned he'll think I'm retreating from the potential to use my education for activism). I also wonder to what extent I could stress that he can work off my law school LOR if he still has it, so as not to take up too much of his time?

@czesc--

I strongly recommend that you do some background research on this person before asking him to write you a LOR. Historians who are held in higher esteem outside of the Ivory Tower than inside of it can manage to generate bad blood and ill will. Sometimes, the hard feelings are a matter of personal jealousy. Sometimes, the "superstar" has made some serious mistakes. Other times, it is a combination of the two--or the result of other additional factors.

My point here is that you do not want to send to Happyland University a LOR from a POI who is PNG unless you're taking a calculated risk that reflects an informed decision.

[annieca]

When conducting a search for POIs, do you focus on methodology or subject field? I'm a cultural historian interested in 18th and 19th century British environmental history, but I've found it difficult to find scholars that fit into both categories. So would I concentrate more on seeking out cultural historians or environmental historians?

I'm a bit different because I'm Public History but, I'll throw my opinion in anyway. I would say go for the most specific thing first - environmental history I think in this case. I think there's more of a chance that you'll come across an environmental historian who is also interested in 18th and 19th century Britain than a cultural historian who is interested in environmental history.

For example, I'm interested in social history of Post-Cold War Europe (super narrow, I know) so I'm looking first for social historians and then see if they're interested in Modern Europe. From there, that's where I get my list of POIs.

Hope that answered your question!