Value of MPA Rankings

[cathyc24]

Hi everyone! So I'm considering applying to MPA/MPP programs specializing in social policy. Now I have several questions on this subject:

1- US News and World Report ranks many programs in the top tier that ARE NOT accredited by NASPAA... should this factor into my school selection? Will employers care more about the rankings in US News more than the accreditation of the school?

2- Given that I'm a relatively ambitious and competent individual, does the ranking of the schools truly matter in regards to employment? A lot of the top tier schools are private institutions that are much more expensive, and being a top tier school makes it that much more competitive to receive funding, so my question I suppose is: is it worth it to try to get into a top ranked school? Will my resume be passed over by employers for someone with a higher ranked school, even if my GPA is better?

I'm really trying to approach this practically, and I've seen enough people be overwhelmed by debt without receiving the employment options they hoped for after attending top ranked schools who have wished they went to a cheaper school. So any advice anyone may have on this subject would be greatly appreciated!

[MYRNIST]

1) US News and World Report rankings for MPA schools are, in a word, awful. Don't pay too much attention to a source that claims Syracuse is better than Princeton, Harvard, etc.

As long as it's a reputable program I wouldn't worry about accreditation.

2) Prestige does matter in terms of getting a job, but it depends a lot on the field you're in. People with consulting experience have said it is a massive factor in even getting an interview. For the federal government, not so much. That said, I think you're putting the cart before the horse in how you're thinking about this issue.

Do rankings, in and of themselves, matter for finding employment? Yes, but not that much.

Do an institution's alumni network, brand name, career services, renowned/well-connected professors, and overall depth and breadth of education matter for finding employment? Hugely. And top-ranked schools are top-ranked because they objectively perform better on those metrics than lower-ranked schools.

[method]

Agree that accreditation is largely a non-issue. However, if you ever decide on pursuing a PhD, some programs are very explicit that your masters must be NASPAA accredited.

[aspiringmaster]

1) US News and World Report rankings for MPA schools are, in a word, awful. Don't pay too much attention to a source that claims Syracuse is better than Princeton, Harvard, etc.

As long as it's a reputable program I wouldn't worry about accreditation.

2) Prestige does matter in terms of getting a job, but it depends a lot on the field you're in. People with consulting experience have said it is a massive factor in even getting an interview. For the federal government, not so much. That said, I think you're putting the cart before the horse in how you're thinking about this issue.

Do rankings, in and of themselves, matter for finding employment? Yes, but not that much.

Do an institution's alumni network, brand name, career services, renowned/well-connected professors, and overall depth and breadth of education matter for finding employment? Hugely. And top-ranked schools are top-ranked because they objectively perform better on those metrics than lower-ranked schools.

And is this not the case with Syracuse? There is a reason it received the #1 ranking

[greendiplomat]

1) US News and World Report rankings for MPA schools are, in a word, awful. Don't pay too much attention to a source that claims Syracuse is better than Princeton, Harvard, etc.

As long as it's a reputable program I wouldn't worry about accreditation.

2) Prestige does matter in terms of getting a job, but it depends a lot on the field you're in. People with consulting experience have said it is a massive factor in even getting an interview. For the federal government, not so much. That said, I think you're putting the cart before the horse in how you're thinking about this issue.

Do rankings, in and of themselves, matter for finding employment? Yes, but not that much.

Do an institution's alumni network, brand name, career services, renowned/well-connected professors, and overall depth and breadth of education matter for finding employment? Hugely. And top-ranked schools are top-ranked because they objectively perform better on those metrics than lower-ranked schools.

Couldn't have put it better myself. People need to be aware that while publications like US News can conceivably put together rankings for undergraduate programs (which are measurable through easily accessible metrics such as yield, selectivity, GPA, and freshman retention rates), it's harder to quantify the merits of specialized graduate/professional programs, which depend upon the factors that MYRNIST mentions, not to mention that these rankings completely gloss over some program's strengths in specific policy fields.

[JAubrey]

And is this not the case with Syracuse? There is a reason it received the #1 ranking

Simply put, Syracuse in alumni network, brand name, career services, renowned/well-connected professors, and overall depth and breadth of education is not in the same league as HKS, WWS, SIPA, GPPI/SFS, ESIA/T, SAIS/JHU, etc.

[aspiringmaster]

Simply put, Syracuse in alumni network, brand name, career services, renowned/well-connected professors, and overall depth and breadth of education is not in the same league as HKS, WWS, SIPA, GPPI/SFS, ESIA/T, SAIS/JHU, etc.

Elliot and SAIS are both IR/IA programs, not MPA. Geographical location alone seems like it puts Syracuse at a disadvantage. However, I have heard nothing short of amazing things about the alumni network at Maxwell. And brand name? Syracuse has been offering an MPA longer than any other school. How could it lack in brand recognition?

SAIS actually offers a dual degree where their students get their MPA from Maxwell

Edited March 7, 2012 by jfornof

[msal]

I totally agree with myrnist about the rank of Syracuse. Also, if a school is listed in the top tier, this is more or less relevant for all its programs. Of course there are some exceptions such as SAIS, Georgetown and GWU are among the top at IR/Gov't issues. This is mostly because of their location. Other than that, top schools such as Harvard, Chicago, Princeton etc are also top at these departments. This is what I think as an applicant of course, not as an employer

[aspiringmaster]

Maxwell seems to get a bad rap on this forum...not sure why

[JAubrey]

Maxwell seems to get a bad rap on this forum...not sure why

Maxwell is not a bad program, however in terms of quality of students it just doesn't compare in pedigree to HKS, WWS, GPPI, SIPA, etc.

[aspiringmaster]

Maxwell is not a bad program, however in terms of quality of students it just doesn't compare in pedigree to HKS, WWS, GPPI, SIPA, etc.

Is that just your opinion or is it rooted in fact

[MYRNIST]

Is that just your opinion or is it rooted in fact

If you want hard numbers (not quite as authoritative as "fact", but for inherently subjective rankings "fact" is not really possible), check out:

- admission rates (selectivity, in other words)

- median GRE, GPA, etc.

- median years of work experience

- ranking of students' undergrad institutions

- employment outcomes (lots of different statistics you could roll with here...)

- endowment $ per student

- % of class receiving external merit awards (PMF, Pickering, etc.)

These will generally back up what JAubrey and I are saying.

The biggest factor, and one that is not as easily quantifiable, is frankly you see a lot more really accomplished people with degrees from WWS/HKS/SAIS/GTSFS, than you do from Maxwell. Ditto for who is teaching. Look at alumni and faculty lists for all the mentioned programs - you will quickly notice one school is noticeably lacking in heads of state, CEOs, top diplomats, generals, etc. compared to the others. Work in DC and note where all the executives for your organization (and others) went to school; dollars to donuts it's one of the "elite" programs I mentioned.

I'll repeat my stance lest I be accused of being a Maxwell hater: I think it is an excellent MPA program, but would strongly dispute that it is better than or equal to the elite schools.

Edited March 8, 2012 by MYRNIST

[JAubrey]

If you want hard numbers (not quite as authoritative as "fact", but for inherently subjective rankings "fact" is not really possible), check out:

- admission rates (selectivity, in other words)

- median GRE, GPA, etc.

- median years of work experience

- ranking of students' undergrad institutions

- employment outcomes (lots of different statistics you could roll with here...)

- endowment $ per student

- % of class receiving external merit awards (PMF, Pickering, etc.)

These will generally back up what JAubrey and I are saying.

The biggest factor, and one that is not as easily quantifiable, is frankly you see a lot more really accomplished people with degrees from WWS/HKS/SAIS/GTSFS, than you do from Maxwell. Ditto for who is teaching. Look at alumni and faculty lists for all the mentioned programs - you will quickly notice one school is noticeably lacking in heads of state, CEOs, top diplomats, generals, etc. compared to the others. Work in DC and note where all the executives for your organization (and others) went to school; dollars to donuts it's one of the "elite" programs I mentioned.

I'll repeat my stance lest I be accused of being a Maxwell hater: I think it is an excellent MPA program, but would strongly dispute that it is better than or equal to the elite schools.

I was going to reply to aspiringmaster, but this is a perfect response to the question.

[aspiringmaster]

Myrnist, I take your point and I appreciate the detailed response.

As you note, quantifying the impact of alumni in the field is difficult to do. This is the one area, in my understanding, that Maxwell has an advantage. Being the oldest MPA program in the country, Syracuse has made a unique imprint on the field that I believe has to be taken under consideration. With my limited knowledge about the program, it seems that this is the main factor behind its subjective, outdated #1 ranking. Although the program may not produce heads of state and top ranking officials, its alumni network is deeply rooted and has expansive reach within the field. At least that is my understanding.

Also, if the program is not "elite", why does the school have a relationship with schools such as WWS, SAIS, and GPPI? I know that the admissions chair travels regularly with colleagues from these schools, and SAIS does offer that dual degree with Maxwell, not a more "elite" MPA program in your estimation.

Edited March 8, 2012 by aspiringmaster

[aspiringmaster]

Would you put GW Tracht ahead of Syracuse as well?

[JAubrey]

On 3/8/2012 at 10:23 AM, aspiringmaster said:

Would you put GW Tracht ahead of Syracuse as well?

When you say travels with, I assume you mean via the APSIA. By this logic, AU, TA&M, UCSD, DU, Maryland, Minnesota, Pitt, and Washington are all elite. This simply isn't so.

Personally I would put most of the DC based programs (GTown, SAIS/JHU, GW Tracht/ESIA) with the exception of maybe AU, ahead of Syracuse, based on alumni, prestige, quality of applicant / student, and exit opportunities.

[adollarninetynine]

lol if you actually think syracuse is better than WWS and HKS, you are in for a rude awakening. people from syracuse always bring up the #1 US news rankings to justify their decision to "choose" maxwell over WWS/HKS (they got rejected in truth). maxwell, although it is a good school, is nowhere near the top of the list when it comes to elite MPP/MPA programs. i have yet to see anyone who has turned down WWS for maxwell or has chosen HKS over maxwell with funding between relatively equal.

Edited March 8, 2012 by adollarninetynine

[aspiringmaster]

lol if you actually think syracuse is better than WWS and HKS, you are in for a rude awakening. people from syracuse always bring up the #1 US news rankings to justify their decision to "choose" maxwell over WWS/HKS (they got rejected in truth). maxwell, although it is a good school, is nowhere near the top of the list when it comes to elite MPP/MPA programs. i have yet to see anyone who has turned down WWS for maxwell or has chosen HKS over maxwell with funding between relatively equal.

I'm not arguing that Syracuse is better than WWS and HKS. But "nowhere near the top of the list"?

[aspiringmaster]

I guess I just don't understand how a program like GW Tracht, a tiny cohort in the arts and sciences school at GW is more presitigous than a program like Maxwell. By lumping in ESIA, you seem to be saying that its about the overall school brand recognition, not the actual program itself.

[JAubrey]

I'm not arguing that Syracuse is better than WWS and HKS. But "nowhere near the top of the list"?

Depends how you define the top of the list but regarding similar programs ahead of them in the US alone, in no particular order:

WWS

HKS

GTown

SAIS/JHU

Tracht/ESIA

SIPA

Wagner

UCB

Harris

Jackson Yale

The above are all solidly ahead of Maxwell, additionally these are a bit above as well but much closer and somewhat debatable:

Fels

Batten

Heinz

Taubman

CIPA

Edited March 8, 2012 by JAubrey

[JAubrey]

I guess I just don't understand how a program like GW Tracht, a tiny cohort in the arts and sciences school at GW is more presitigous than a program like Maxwell. By lumping in ESIA, you seem to be saying that its about the overall school brand recognition, not the actual program itself.

There is a fair bit of cross registration between Tracht and ESIA, also the master's from ESIA grads tend to be looking at similar careers as Maxwell grads, hence this is a valid example.

[aspiringmaster]

There is a fair bit of cross registration between Tracht and ESIA, also the master's from ESIA grads tend to be looking at similar careers as Maxwell grads, hence this is a valid example.

You're referring to Maxwell IR grads, no? I'm talking specifically about Maxwell MPA grads. I guess the bigger question is: Is the distinction even important between IR and MPA when looking for employment?

Edited March 8, 2012 by aspiringmaster

[JAubrey]

You're referring to Maxwell IR grads, no? I'm talking specifically about Maxwell MPA grads. I guess the bigger question is: Is the distinction even important between IR and MPA when looking for employment?

Outside of MEng and MBA, most employers don't care what sort of master's it is and just look at the subject. I am speaking to both public and private sector employers.

[aspiringmaster]

I've been accepted to GW Tracht (MPA), Maxwell (MPA), and American SPA (MPA). Partial to Maxwell (as everyone in this thread already knows) but wondering whether or not I'm making poor decision in sticking with it over Tracht at this point.

Edited March 8, 2012 by aspiringmaster

[JAubrey]

I've been accepted to GW Tracht (MPA), Maxwell (MPA), and American SPA (MPA). Partial to Maxwell (as everyone in this thread already knows) but wondering whether or not I'm making poor decision in sticking with it over Tracht at this point.

That is obviously up to you, fit and what not.

However, depending on if you have any funding from Maxwell, I would attend GW unless Syracuse throws a substantial scholarship / grant at you. The location is huge, as is the fact you have many more GW Tract, ESIA, CAS master's graduates all around DC, not to mention literally thousands of GW BAs who stayed, so networking is a factor obviously.