Giving up on gradschool? thoughts....

[bulbasuarez]

I am 22 and have just applied to two programs SVA and Columbia, because I felt they were two programs I could fit into and are in the city...

As I stress about my results, I have actually been feeling quite creative and have started some very ambitious paintings which are much better than what I have produced in my portfolio, because I guess I have a lot of room to grow...

recently a very important contemporary artist saw these works and responded in the following way... "fuck gradschool! theres more dipshits with worthless MFA degrees out there than crooked politicians these days. your work looks pretty dope to me. keep doing it and fuck the schools. i understand why you think you need it but i just think it's a bunch of bullshit. best of luck either way-"

I've also heard the same at an artist lecture last year from contemporary artist chris martin, even though he was speaking at a university, he was adamant about not wasting your money and time on gradschool.

what are people's thoughts? Is gradschool not for everyone? Are these artists saying this because they themselves made it without any MFA...

Also what am I expected to do to just "go out there" and "be an artist" Ive exhibited in nyc before and idk what else I should be doing.

[Resendes8909]

I think it depends on what you want out of a graduate program. I am going for design rather than fine art, and I'm approaching graduate school as an opportunity to learn more about design and to do research and make work based on that. For fine arts it is a little different. Graduate school can open doors for networking purposes I suppose. It is an opportunity to have your work critiqued and to work with other artists.

As a designer collaboration is really important, but for fine artists I can see why some wouldn't find it necessary.

[sympatico]

Keep in mind that illustrators and street artists have always been pretty suspicious of fine arts schools, so there is nothing new there. They've had basically the same argument since the 50's.

As well as tattoo artists, and anyone associated with "low-brow" arts. Also note that I'm friends with people from all these demographics, so I'm not being condescending. It's almost more a cultural attitude than anything else. I know street artists with MFAs who are using their credentials so that they can pursue other endeavors, such as public works projects, etc.

Edited March 14, 2012 by sympatico

[Fool4nine]

If you want to teach... get your MFA.

If you do not want to teach... get your MFA -or- get a job and continue to make art.

22 is pretty young to already be giving up on getting an MFA. Heck, I'm 51 and have had two other long careers before concentrating on art. Also, only applying to two highly competitive programs does not make your chances of being accepted very high. If your only going after those two schools, you may never be accepted until such time as you no longer need the school.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Fool4nine

[uke]

I agree with fool4nine on the age/giving up part, although i do also sympathize with you..

I recently got a chance to hear chuck close speak about his life and expereinces and his exact words about grad school were:

" Grad school is only good for 2 things: 1, to have the room and to make art, and ....(pauses) and two....umm..

God damnit , theres got to be another reason why grad school is important"

eventually he came up with 'a sense of community'. As humorous and fitting as this is, its also important to note his 'classmates' were; richard serra , Nancy Graves, and Janet Fish... just to name a few

I am your age, and I feel like we do have pressure to go get it 'now or never' kind of thing.

I would love to eventually teach at the college level, right now I teach k-12 art which is another animal in of itself, but would like to/need to get my masters within 5 years to keep my teaching cert. I think getting an MFA as apposed to an MS etc.. allows me flexibility in careers, while still being able to work on and improve my work.

Personally I know eventually I would like to have a family etc. As of now I have nothing holding me back, Im single, and I could/would move anywhere. Although Im not going to give up by any means if I dont get in this round. I look at it from this angle, even if I have to wait a year or two, or more for that matter, I'll be smarter about the programs I apply to, build up my portfolio , and earn money so If i don't end up getting funding I can have some saved to kick back on. I

Just make work, apply to places that feel right and have good funding and if its meant to be , then its meant to be.

[kazoo]

Being almost as young as you (23), i don't claim to have any answers but here is my perspective:

No one should go to grad school because they feel that it is the only way to become an recognized artist. If you feel that you have a lot to accomplish out of school, then you probably will! That said its not really a question of giving up at this point? If you decide not to reapply next year, there are so many more years ahead to change your mind. grad school may not be for everyone but most importantly its for different people at different times of their lives.

Honestly with all of the work and money that goes into an MFA, you should go knowing it's what you really really want! here are some reasons to go:

-you want the fast paced creative environment

-you want the constant dialogue around your work/

-you want the opportunities that a school can give (opportunities in research, to learn techniques, networking, etc)

-you want the strong community

-you want to teach

-you want to work with certain faculty members (a dangerous one in my opinion, because no one can predict what any given person can teach you!)

good luck ultimately i hope you find the best path for your work!

[Fool4nine]

Being almost as young as you (23), i don't claim to have any answers but here is my perspective:

No one should go to grad school because they feel that it is the only way to become an recognized artist. If you feel that you have a lot to accomplish out of school, then you probably will! That said its not really a question of giving up at this point? If you decide not to reapply next year, there are so many more years ahead to change your mind. grad school may not be for everyone but most importantly its for different people at different times of their lives.

Honestly with all of the work and money that goes into an MFA, you should go knowing it's what you really really want! here are some reasons to go:

-you want the fast paced creative environment

-you want the constant dialogue around your work/

-you want the opportunities that a school can give (opportunities in research, to learn techniques, networking, etc)

-you want the strong community

-you want to teach

-you want to work with certain faculty members (a dangerous one in my opinion, because no one can predict what any given person can teach you!)

good luck ultimately i hope you find the best path for your work!

Much better said than me. From talking with the grad students at my undergrad school, most grow as artists quite a bit. But of course it isn't the only path. You can maybe learn just as much on your own, but I'll bet that it will take you 3-4 times as long to learn as much. Don't underestimate the benefits of collaborating with artists working in different media. If you want to teach then it may be the only way. Of course if you become uber famous then not having an MFA won't matter a bit even if you do want to teach. Personally, it seems to me that most artists need some kind of job to support themselves as most can't live well on only their art (at least not for many years if they are just starting out). What better way to provide that financial suport than being immersed in art as an art professor? But if you are already making good money with your art, then perhaps an MFA would even slow you down. It's up to you - only you can decide what is best for you.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Fool4nine

[leee]

It is certainly going to be hard making it just selling your work, grad school or not. The main benefit I see from it are reasons listed above, but most importantly being immersed in art thought with some great artists for two years straight, and having the ability and credentials to teach when you come out. Don't give up yet, sounds like the person who called your work dope has a bit of a fuck it personality with no real good reasons to back up why not to go. of course it's going to be a lot of money but if you can lasso some scholarships and grants it shouldn't be a huge problem. I also know there are people (sometimes professors, ha!) who laugh at getting an MFA to teach, I find this a bit contradictory and a little naive. Either way it is your decision and best of luck!

Edited March 15, 2012 by leetimko

[michaelwebster]

Based on your work, I don't know if ou really need to go to grad school, unless you want to for one of the reasons listed above. Just make a ton of work and apply to every show/opportunity you can. That is what artists really do. They spend half their time making stuff, and half filling out applications. Only once you get more well known does the application process slow down a little. But I wouldn't just take a drunk, ranting "important artist" as your guidance. You will know if grad school is for you, and it may not happen for a few years.

[bulbasuarez]

seems like its time to go be an artist... too bad that path is way too open ended. what a mystery

[Hindinwood]

seems like its time to go be an artist... too bad that path is way too open ended. what a mystery

Whoa, you said it!

[TheStranger]

It sounds like you already know the answer to your question by listing only two highly competitive (and expensive) schools and your age of 22. I can sympathize with you because I plan on only applying to a couple highly competitive schools myself next year (maybe also one less competitive school to have options).

When I showed my art professor my latest pieces, for example, he was thrilled and told me there were many galleries out there who would love to show my work. The catch? You just can't walk into a gallery and have it shown. You have to know people who recommend you. CONNECTIONS. NETWORKING. He told me that is how it has always been and how it works for many fields. I think grad school is for connections, a great environment to improve your art and a teaching degree. Sure you could make connections without grad school...but those schools are usually tight with their fellow alumni or know people in high places. You may just land a good show or teaching job just because you went to grad school.

I wouldn't worry about not getting accepted. You probably saved yourself $100,000 in debt anyway. Apply next year better and more informed!

Edited March 23, 2012 by TheStranger

[boog]

Hi Bulba,

I'm in the same boat as you and am glad to have found your post. I graduated from SAIC last May with a BFA in painting and drawing. I did really well while I was there and took painting very seriously. I had a very good scholarship and senior year I was admitted into their advanced painting program (12 students a semester juried in out of the entire department conducted in ways similar to the graduate program). My life-plan was to take a year off after finishing my BFA and work part-time doing something art related while painting in the other half of my time to build up my portfolio for grad school. After that year off I would apply for competitive MFA programs in order to able to teach and make more work on the side.

Well to start out, since graduating I have had no luck finding an art-related job, and seriously regret staying here in Chicago (I had the opportunity to move). There is just nothing here job-wise. I know only 2 peers out of my entire AP class who have found artistic jobs- and they both moved to CA after school and found them there. I can't even count how many cover letters I've written, it's insane. I never get any responses back- and the few times I did receive responses for gallery jobs, I had 2 interviews and both places acted extremely flaky and left me hanging for weeks. The listings are so incredibly sparse- and 3/4 of the listings are for unpaid internships that never hire. I feel that unlike my peers, I am not comfortable with this attitude of bopping along working at a coffee shop for the rest of my life hoping to get a break from my painting. I grew up very poor and worked crappy jobs all through high school and the year after graduating. Pursuing a higher education at a reputable school was supposed to be a responsible decision on my part- but now I feel unsure about the path I took. Whenever I've asked my peers what they plan on doing, they just shrug. I think some people think it's romantic to be poor because it's part of the cliche artist image. However, I want to feel like I am on a path to doing something that requires my creative skills, technical abilities, and intelligence. I'd do anything to have a job with those qualities that pays well and that is also reasonably 'in demand'.

This experience so far of going through 8 months of unemployment has led me to really rethink everything I planned and look over it in detail. I am scared shitless of spending more time and money on school, only to get out and be in the same position as now- maybe even worse (it's harder to find a stupid low level job with a Masters...). When I've looked online about MFA's and what people say- it seems to boil down to claims that you do not get an MFA to be able to teach- you go to further your work. This really makes no sense to me- how can I make work if I cannot find a viable part-time job that I like after I leave? I would be miserable! There are hardly any job postings for post-secondary art professors in general- then you pigeon hole yourself into 'painting and drawing' or 'photography' and what are you left with? How many people are graduating from schools such as SAIC with MFAs: 300+ a year...On a few online forums I checked, there accounts from people who regretted getting their MFA because they felt like it was useless since they could not find any work after school. Many people even referred to it as a "luxury degree". There are little to no tenure tracks offered for art professors. Schools cut costs by only hiring adjuncts nowadays- so you have no stability and are always looking out for the next one semester class you were lucky enough to pick up. I had one professor that worked at Borders for 3 years even though he had a PHD and was teaching classes at "the #2 ranked school for art". That kind of money is never enough to live off of and it obviously provides little to no stability. You can forget trying to find a job in a preferable area too. Most of the time you have to be a successful artist to even be considered to work for a good college in addition to having an MFA- which again is not just about hard work- its about luck. It's not like this for all other fields: my boyfriend and I are moving this summer for his PoliSci PHD program and he can expect to get a job after his 6 years there and work to get on a tenure track. He gets paid to go to school- all the schools have offered him an amazing stipend and have even paid for him to check out each of their campuses. I am so jealous, it kills me, especially when I'm feeling so unsure about what I'm doing!

I have no intention of being a famous artist at 24- or a famous artist at all. I want to someday be able to live off my paintings- but seriously do not expect this until I am over 40 maybe. An MFA is not required to make great art, and an MFA does not guarantee a job after school. Some people will say that is true of all degrees- but I think it is genuinely harder for visual artists. After all the research I've done into this, I'm finding myself ruminating every day over what am I going to do in the meantime and where to go next. It's been a very hard year and I hope moving will provide me with a new start in a better location. I've started to look seriously into pursuing graphic design or animation- going for another BFA or getting into a certificate program. I've had a really hard time finding other people who can relate to switching into Graphic Design from fine art and already have their BFA's, so the search for answers has felt daunting. Like I said, I just want to do something on the side that still requires creativity, intelligence, and artistic skill. No matter what I do on the side, I will never stop painting- but I'd rather have better prospects making money in a job that's not related to working at Pete's Coffee or the Gap.

[michaelwebster]

Nice response Boog. It is near impossible to find an art related job now, I worked as a grocery stocker the year between my BFA and MFA. Getting an MFA to teach at the college level straight out of school is near impossible too. The key is to find a job where you can still make your work of the side, and hopefully build up enough of a resume, reputation, and portfolio to get a good job in the art world in 5 or 10 years. Chicago is especially saturated with all the art schools and a relatively little art market. I would agree with you and recommend getting out of Chicago, where your degree from SAIC will actually look exotic.

Edited March 29, 2012 by michaelwebster

[boog]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your response! Your confirmation of things getting better after moving away from Chicago (due to it's outpouring of artists from all the art schools + the small market) gives me a feeling of encouragement and it really helps to hear that possibility qualified by someone. I really want to feel like my education stands out to people looking over my resume and holds the legitimate weight it deserves- exotic even. I don't want to have another year like this if I can help it!

The other day was the first time I got that feeling- however it is most likly is a stupid example of an isolated incident: I had called the art school connected to Berkeley (where they offer non-credit classes like Lillstreet or Evanston Art Center) asking about if they were going to be hiring art instructors this summer (just to get a casual feeling of the possible opportunities). I spoke with someone who asked me what my background was, and when I said I had a BFA in painting + drawing from SAIC- all of the sudden her voice changed, sounding a lot more excited to talk to me. As stupid as this tidbit of a random phone conversation may sound, I have never once received any response even close to holding the same amount of enthusiasm as what I heard on the phone talking to this lady the other day...It gave me a fleeting feeling of optimism.

On a side note- It also doesn't help either that around here (but then again, probably anywhere you mention it) people don't know the difference between the 'Art Institutes' and SAIC. This is a regular SAIC student complaint of course since I've heard it from many others. I'm sick of people being confused and imagining that one day I was sitting on the couch in my underwear watching Maury and suddenly decided to sign myself up for 'art school' after being enticed by an advertisement for career success!

Edited March 29, 2012 by boog

[lamouchemorte]

This topic is such a bummer.