Dating undergrad students?

[Sigaba]

@Jeffster--

If you're going to disagree "respectfully" with someone, you can show that respect by demonstrating that you've read actually what that person has posted.

Please show me where I characterized the Ivory Tower as "minefield" or that my suggestions are aimed at the entire "world." Please show me where I wrote "Do not get involved with undergraduates." While you're at it, would you mind showing me where I used the term "one night stand." Please show me where I did not suggest that graduate students assess and manage their risk when making relational choices.

@TakerUK--

In my experience, there's the way one would like things to be and there's the way things are. As Eigen points out, I'm merely suggesting that graduate students do their due diligence to square the latter with the former before they make important choices.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Sigaba

[TakeruK]

I did read/interpret Sigaba's post differently -- I had a situation in mind where it was one (but perhaps influential) person who had their own beliefs that were not in line with the official policy. So I was suggesting that there is probably always going to be one person that are going to be upset at you for something or other, so as long as you can live with it (i.e. don't have to deal with it every day) then maybe it's no big deal.

But, after reading Eigen's interpretation, then yes, I definitely have seen that there is a set of written rules and then a set of unwritten expectations. So far, I've found that a good resource for these unwritten expectations are senior graduate students and faculty members you trust.

Definitely agree that before making a decision that could affect an unwritten (or written!) rule/expectation, one should consider all of the consequences, even if the unwritten rule/expectation is unfair. After the consequences are acceptable, which would vary from person to person, then one should go ahead with it!

When things are not the way they should be, you can either live with it / change your own expectations, or do something to change it. Sometimes, it's worth trying to change, sometimes it's not. I know Sigaba weren't talking about what happens after the evaluation of the consequences, and just merely that one should carefully consider everything. But your (Sigaba) tone did give an impression, intentional or not, that these consequences are generally negative and not worth it.

Because of my nature, if there exists written policies (which may have been hard fought for by previous students/faculty members) that are undermined by unwritten expectations, I will feel a strong urge to challenge them, through appropriate means. After all, unwritten policies sometimes are unwritten for a reason. There is always a lot of risk, because as Sigaba points out, the profs are the gatekeepers to our future, and there is a huge power imbalance. So, it takes a little bit of courage for a student in this situation to speak out/go against an unwritten policy. But I am also well aware that there is a fine line between bravery and foolishness! (Thus it's important to follow Sigaba's suggestions to consider every consequence/outcome carefully).

[GreenePony]

I think others have definitely covered what I think about grad/ug relationships (not being in a role of authority over, fit within norms of department/school, doesn't violate any rules or statutes, etc)- my husband and I met while he was in grad school and I was in undergrad at the same university (may have talked about this on another thread).

If there was a chance he could be a TA for me, I probably wouldn't have gone for it because of the potential conflict of interest and how it would look to professors/other students. Even with him being in a totally different school within the university (engineering/compsci v. arts and sciences) some people still threw a hissy fit because there is still a hinky sort of perception. To them, it didn't matter that we were less than 4 years apart and the only classes we ever had in common in ug and grad school were the university required classes that everyone going through the ug had to take- and we took them several years apart (he did ug at the same school). Rather, they saw a more advanced student in a superior position potentially taking advantage of a younger, inexperienced student.

Sure you could say that you don't care what other people think, but I don't think that is a wise position to take, especially in academia. Some concerns can be soothed by proving the contrary, but you still need to be careful in this sort of environment.

[Lola Wants]

I have discussed this topic before with a professor who was close to me and it was relayed to me that it was unprofessional for TA's and students to fraternize on a certain level. This professor was speaking from personal experiences as a graduate student and as an academic. I was also told that while there is nothing legally wrong with this practice, since the undergraduate and TA are both consenting adults in the relationship, it was frowned upon by colleagues, and stirs up gossip amongst other graduate students (ammunition that could be used against you). This person discussed how professors would question your professional ethical character with the mindset that if you're a TA and dating a student what would prevent you from dating a student when you become a professor (and we all know that's an even larger no no in the academic community). Of course there are exceptions to this rule, however, the moment you decide to date a student you do not know if you will be treated as the exception. The question you should ask yourself is, are you willing to risk losing the respect of your future colleagues and your peers by dating a student?

Edited May 31, 2012 by Lola Wants

[jeffster]

@Jeffster--

If you're going to disagree "respectfully" with someone, you can show that respect by demonstrating that you've read actually what that person has posted.

Please show me where I characterized the Ivory Tower as "minefield" or that my suggestions are aimed at the entire "world." Please show me where I wrote "Do not get involved with undergraduates." While you're at it, would you mind showing me where I used the term "one night stand." Please show me where I did not suggest that graduate students assess and manage their risk when making relational choices.

Calm down Sigaba. You didn't write the word "minefield." I read what you wrote and interpreted it as being equivalent to seeing the world as a minefield, which I thought was pretty clear. To be more explicit, I thought your post suggested that there were hidden dangers everywhere, and that by engaging in dating with fellow grad or undergrad students, you would likely screw yourself without even knowing it. I think a minefield is an apt metaphor for that.

You also did not write the phrase "Do not get involved with undergraduates." However, your entire post led to this conclusion. Sort of like a limit on its way out to infinity! We all know where it's headed.

And you also did not use the term "one night stand." Instead you talked about "short term desires." That's a very diplomatic way of saying one night stand, in this context. Unless you meant two night stands, or one semester stands? If so, I stand corrected. However, my point that people find valuable, long-term relationships amongst fellow students stands.

So now that we've talked about my apparently objectionable use of metaphor and hypoerbole, I stand by what I said. Your post portrays school as a bad place to engage in relationships, where you're likely to mess up your academic career by doing so. I think this is a bad way to view it, since people can develop very meaningful relationships this way, and approaching it full of fear of unknown hazards is going to stymie any chances of that. Adhere to rules and ethics, and don't worry about every little invisible unknown hazard, because doing that tends to be paralyzing, and close social relationships aren't something you should simply discard for five years.

[Chukwu Chucks]

in shorter way, it's OK as long as:

1) you are in the different department OR you're not teaching the same class

AND

2) it's a healthy relationship

[ktel]

I think others have definitely covered what I think about grad/ug relationships (not being in a role of authority over, fit within norms of department/school, doesn't violate any rules or statutes, etc)- my husband and I met while he was in grad school and I was in undergrad at the same university (may have talked about this on another thread).

If there was a chance he could be a TA for me, I probably wouldn't have gone for it because of the potential conflict of interest and how it would look to professors/other students. Even with him being in a totally different school within the university (engineering/compsci v. arts and sciences) some people still threw a hissy fit because there is still a hinky sort of perception. To them, it didn't matter that we were less than 4 years apart and the only classes we ever had in common in ug and grad school were the university required classes that everyone going through the ug had to take- and we took them several years apart (he did ug at the same school). Rather, they saw a more advanced student in a superior position potentially taking advantage of a younger, inexperienced student.

Sure you could say that you don't care what other people think, but I don't think that is a wise position to take, especially in academia. Some concerns can be soothed by proving the contrary, but you still need to be careful in this sort of environment.

You must have gone to a smaller university? At my undergraduate university, with over 30000 students, nobody would know if you dated someone in a different department. Heck, I dated someone in engineering, but a different discipline, and we might as well have gone to different schools.

[R Deckard]

You must have gone to a smaller university? At my undergraduate university, with over 30000 students, nobody would know if you dated someone in a different department. Heck, I dated someone in engineering, but a different discipline, and we might as well have gone to different schools.

When I graduated, I learned that I didn't even recognize 99% of the people in my major and class.

[Sigaba]

Entire post.

In other words, you disregarded entirely what I wrote, proceeded to have a conversation with yourself, and concluded that you were right all along.

Well done.

[GreenePony]

You must have gone to a smaller university? At my undergraduate university, with over 30000 students, nobody would know if you dated someone in a different department. Heck, I dated someone in engineering, but a different discipline, and we might as well have gone to different schools.

When I graduated, I learned that I didn't even recognize 99% of the people in my major and class.

It was about 12-13k without counting grad students this year. So not tiny (most of the places I applied for ug were <3000 total) but not UT by any means. The liberal arts portion of the degree requirements mean that you take a good number of classes outside of your department, so I have very few friends from my own department but more from the other colleges. There's an unfortunate emphasis (it's slowly dieing) on dating and marrying early there so unless you are really sneaky about it, people are going to know and judge. Also, DH and I met in a somewhat large student organization with a lot of people from the different colleges so it was almost inevitable that someone from either department found out.

Even with a relatively small department (I think ~30 walked with me) I didn't really recognize 1/2 the people in my department at graduation. I knew after a year I didn't really want to work in it so I took just the classes I needed to and spent more of my energy in my minor where I knew I wanted to work (They cut the BA portion so I could only minor )

[alion24]

When you are in a teaching/mentor positions above the student, it's highly unethical and gross. I realize this is an old thread, but I was searching the topic, because I was feeling EXTREMELY frustrated by male TAs talking about female undergrads that they felt were "hot" and whom they'd like to date or otherwise (I'm a female TA for the same class). I suspect there is still some sort of gender barrier among certain individuals, when it comes to understanding why it is unethical and crazy sexist to prey on and objectify your students like this. But even if you don't understand: please don't abuse your power as an educator. There are literally hundreds...thousands...millions of people you can date who are NOT your students. 

Students will frequently be "nice" and friendly to their TAs/instructors/professors because they want to make a good impression/be taken seriously/be part of an academic community/like their academic work/are aware that you are in control of their grades. This should NOT be confused as them making sexual or romantic advances (don't kid yourself and think that these students would be so friendly to you, if you weren't in a position of power over them). As a female in a male dominated field, I had several TAs try to give me their cell phone numbers in case I wanted to get "extra office hours" or make various advances at me (as an undergrad—while they were in control of my grades), and as a graduate student, I've had professors try to do the same. IT IS THE WORST, and it puts you in a horrible lose-lose situation when you are in the receiving end of unwanted advances. It's heartbreaking and isolating, when all you want to do is be taken seriously for your academic contributions, and you not only feel like you're being preyed on, but your grades or career could legitimately be jeopardized, depending on how you react to the advancements. What might be a fun passing whim for you, could be a nightmare to the student. 

If you are convinced that a particular student is the love of your life and you HAVE to date them, WAIT until you are not in a position of power over them (ie you are 100% positive the student will never be in your class again and you will never have to write recommendation letters for them), before you try to cross that line. Likewise, be VERY frank about your intentions that you want to date them or X, otherwise they may think you're contact with them is an extension of your academic relationship in the class—and they'll be in for a very awkward and unwanted awakening when they realize you have other motivations/plans.... 

 

[fadedfigures]

Here's my story, because I actually went through it. I began dating an undergraduate (who I am now engaged to) during my first-year of a PhD program. I started my program young, so the age gap was small. However, my fiancé transferred into the same department that I was a graduate student in, which wasn't a big deal. I just let the graduate advisor know what classes my fiancé was in so that we could make sure I was not assigned to those courses. And that was it. 

The big issue with dating undergraduates is an issue with power. You cannot be involved in a romantic relationship with anyone you have grading power over, so any students that you currently TA for are a no-go. If they aren't in your department, then it is fair game. However, if they are in your department, just be sure to be transparent about the relationship so that the proper precautions can be made.