Low confidence in the GRE test

[Michaliskh]

hey guys. I am a psychology student and i've just finished the B.S in Psychology. I am planning to go to the states for a ph.d in clinical but i know that its extremely difficult. I will do a gap year to gather some money and then shoot my applications in the states.

The thing that bothers me is that i know that i will not do well in the gre test. I am will sit the TOEFL in two days. I am planning to retake the GRE's later again but if my scores are not higher what do i do then?

I ws thinking to applay for a one year masters in UK to increase my chances to get accepted in the states. But WHY must the universities take so much care for the GRE if somebody's GPA is high in a degree and let say a masters? WHY must the GRE me the most important factor for a consideration into getting accepted in the states?

[jeffster]

The weight given to the GRE seems to vary by area of study, specific school, or even by individual members of committees. I have a family friend who is a top professor in entomology, and he says when he sits on grad committees he puts virtually no weight on the GRE because he doesn't believe it's a good indicator of anything. On the other hand, to get into a top econ program you pretty much need to have a 790 or 800 on the quant section.

So in short, the GRE isn't necessarily the most important thing. Try checking with the departments you're interested in and asking how much they weigh it, and assuming English isn't your first language, whether they make some allowance for that in the verbal section. The information might be on their websites already.

[emmm]

The GRE is more a filtering tool -- you must get above a certain minimum, but after that, it really doesn't help you much to get a high score. The test is not really thought to measure much beyond basic skills in math and (asnoted above) the verbal need not be super high for non-native speakers. However, the "minimum" cutoff varies depending on your field (and is generally higher than the overall school minimum for grad admissions), and certain technical fields rightly expect pretty high quantitative scores.

[ILuvPsych2013]

In psychology, it seems that the consensus is that "The GRE matters....but it shouldn't." I echo jeffster's comment that the weight given to GRE scores varies widely across programs and ad comms. I am also experiencing some GRE jitters (I take it this August) and here is the feedback I have received:

1) Most programs will look at the application as a whole. A deficit in one area (including GRE scores) does not necessarily mean you are doomed, especially if you look great in another area (letters of recommendation in particular).

2) A good letter writer can explain away sub-par GRE scores.

3) Do your homework: research the programs you are interested in to see if they have strict cutoffs, and apply accordingly.

4) If at all possible, study hard for the test and take it one time. If you take it multiple times, ad comms can see your previous scores as wel as your current one.

5) At some institutions, the GRE isn't as much of an admissions decision maker as a funding decision maker. For example, a good GRE score may help you get a department fellowship.

Try not to stress over it too much. All you can do is all you can do. Focus on making the strongest possible application while recognizing your potential weaknesses. Good luck!

[Michaliskh]

Thanks for your encouragement

I will try to do my best in these exams. But if things go wrong with the exams then im considering to shoot for Europe, particularly Ireland.

Any comments on that?

[jeffster]

Thanks for your encouragement

I will try to do my best in these exams. But if things go wrong with the exams then im considering to shoot for Europe, particularly Ireland.

Any comments on that?

I think it depends on your goals. If you are interested in working anywhere in the world that you find opportunities, then a European institution will be great (particularly in Europe). Unfortunately it's been shown repeatedly that name recognition matters for a university, both in academia and (particularly) in the business world, so if your goal is to work in the US at all then you will be better off at a US institution, or a well-known international one. For example, many in the US are likely to know LSE or Oxford or the Sorbonne. But something like Central European University in Budapest, or Charles University in Prague? They're fine schools that carry a lot of weight in their regions, but will be almost meaningless to many people in the US. It's not impossible to take a degree from a place like that and work in the US, but it's definitely going to be a bit of an obstacle.

Of course the same is true to a lesser extent with small schools in the US also. A lot of schools are known as fine institutions in their region, but unknown if you cross to the other coast, or sometimes even to the next state.

Anyway, just something to keep in mind about where you apply to school versus where you actually want to work. I wouldn't call it enough to be a deal-breaker either way.

Edited June 14, 2012 by jeffster

[Michaliskh]

Hmm..

Since in the states there is an issue with the student visa of international students then, based on your enquiry, is better to study in Europe since Im planning to work and stay in Europe...

[jeffster]

Hmm..

Since in the states there is an issue with the student visa of international students then, based on your enquiry, is better to study in Europe since Im planning to work and stay in Europe...

Well, the US schools would still be fine if you can get into a higher-profile one. Although sometimes even that can be an issue, I have a friend in Europe who has an undergrad degree from Brown. Everyone there knows Yale or Harvard, but no one has heard of Brown at all. So not even all Ivy League schools will make the name-recognition cut!

[Michaliskh]

Well, the US schools would still be fine if you can get into a higher-profile one. Although sometimes even that can be an issue, I have a friend in Europe who has an undergrad degree from Brown. Everyone there knows Yale or Harvard, but no one has heard of Brown at all. So not even all Ivy League schools will make the name-recognition cut!

Ok.. What are your comments on the ratings of certain programs across the globe? Lets say, psychology is ranked at the top 50 best programs done from the Trinity college in Dublin, Ireland and some other universities such as the university of Arizona or U of Connecticut are ranked very low on the rating matrix. Wouldn't the people who have not heard a lot about Trinity get a slight better information about other schools who are high in their ranking but not very used in people's ears yet? I mean is better to attend a college which offers good quality in that area, than attend a college in the states where everybody knows, right? Such as the colleges mentioned above...

[jeffster]

Again, it depends on what you want to do. If you're going to work in your field, where everyone is likely to know that Trinity College is good at something, great. But if you might end up in the private sector, that wont carry as much weight.

Here's an example. I went to Michigan State University for my undergraduate. It's ranked #1 in the world for nuclear physics, just ahead of MIT (Or was last time I heard anyone talk about it; maybe it's changed now... doesn't matter for the example though!). People in nuclear physics itself probably know this, and could weigh a degree from MSU appropriately. Almost everyone else, however, will have the instant name recognition of MIT and will never even compare it to MSU.

There's no hard and fast way to analyze this. Just consider where you want to work geographically and whether you want to be in academia or in the private sector. If your goal is to work in Europe, and you don't get into a prestigious US university, then generally speaking you would probably be better off in a mid-range school in Europe than in the US. But despite how much you and I are talking about it, there are going to be far more important factors than this to weigh I imagine.

[Michaliskh]

Again, it depends on what you want to do. If you're going to work in your field, where everyone is likely to know that Trinity College is good at something, great. But if you might end up in the private sector, that wont carry as much weight.

Here's an example. I went to Michigan State University for my undergraduate. It's ranked #1 in the world for nuclear physics, just ahead of MIT (Or was last time I heard anyone talk about it; maybe it's changed now... doesn't matter for the example though!). People in nuclear physics itself probably know this, and could weigh a degree from MSU appropriately. Almost everyone else, however, will have the instant name recognition of MIT and will never even compare it to MSU.

There's no hard and fast way to analyze this. Just consider where you want to work geographically and whether you want to be in academia or in the private sector. If your goal is to work in Europe, and you don't get into a prestigious US university, then generally speaking you would probably be better off in a mid-range school in Europe than in the US. But despite how much you and I are talking about it, there are going to be far more important factors than this to weigh I imagine.

Indeed there are . Financially a US university is more expensive that a European, and furthermore am an only child, and my parents are divorsed and im still living with my mother..

I think that are some ways to consider if i eventually must choose USA or Europe..

Thanks anyway Jeffster! It was a very nice discussion we had !

[grimmiae]

Actually, now you can take the GRE and select which scores you want an admission committee to see. They will not see previous scores...if you so choose.

http://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/about/scoreselect

[ILuvPsych2013]

Actually, now you can take the GRE and select which scores you want an admission committee to see. They will not see previous scores...if you so choose.

http://www.ets.org/g...out/scoreselect

Wow, that is a great change!

[lewin]

^^ I have a feeling that if average scores get higher schools will just increase their admissions requirements.

[ladyling]

This is only a slight change--it used to be that ETS sent your best scores from each section automatically, but also when you took the test. So, if your best score was a 670V (September 2009 test date), 680Q (November 2009), 5.5W (October 2009) (yes, I know it's scored differently now), they'd send that and list that you took the test in September 2009, October 2009, and November 2009. ETS benefits when students take tests more, so they try to minimize the stigma on it.

[abdefghijkl]

You don't need the GRE in Canada, most Canadian universities think it's hooey. Saves lots of money and misery for applicants...

[lewin]

This is only a slight change--it used to be that ETS sent your best scores from each section automatically, but also when you took the test. So, if your best score was a 670V (September 2009 test date), 680Q (November 2009), 5.5W (October 2009) (yes, I know it's scored differently now), they'd send that and list that you took the test in September 2009, October 2009, and November 2009. ETS benefits when students take tests more, so they try to minimize the stigma on it.

That must be somewhat new too. When I took the general and subject in 2005-06 they always sent all scores. Makes me feel better about my scores

You don't need the GRE in Canada, most Canadian universities think it's hooey. Saves lots of money and misery for applicants...

To be blunt, that's just not true for clinical psych. I looked up UBC, McGill, Toronto, Victoria, and Waterloo -- all five require GRE scores.

Edited June 17, 2012 by lewin00

[emmm]

This is only a slight change--it used to be that ETS sent your best scores from each section automatically, but also when you took the test. So, if your best score was a 670V (September 2009 test date), 680Q (November 2009), 5.5W (October 2009) (yes, I know it's scored differently now), they'd send that and list that you took the test in September 2009, October 2009, and November 2009. ETS benefits when students take tests more, so they try to minimize the stigma on it.

I don't think that's how it used to work -- I thought they sent ALL the results, not just your best scores. I took it twice, but 20 years apart, so I don't have an actual score report to consult, but I have never heard anyone describe what you are saying.

[crazygirl2012]

You don't need the GRE in Canada, most Canadian universities think it's hooey. Saves lots of money and misery for applicants...

Really? University of Toronto required my GRE scores when I applied last Fall.

[BrianM]

Really? University of Toronto required my GRE scores when I applied last Fall.

Same here, I'm applying to British Columbia and they require it, as well as the others mentioned above.

OP- I'm in the same as you mate, I've taken the GREs before and got an 840 total. I made it into all the Master's programs I applied to, (6 schools) but now I am applying to Ph.D programs.

I keep freaking out thinking that the GREs are the be all end all of the application process. But lots of the schools I see state there are either no cut offs or they they look at the whole package first before throwing out your app.

Some more competitive schools state that there is a 1200 or 1100 cut off. I don't know where people get the 1300 number, maybe from schools like Princeton or Harvard lol.

Good Luck! We all freak out together

[lewin]

Some more competitive schools state that there is a 1200 or 1100 cut off. I don't know where people get the 1300 number, maybe from schools like Princeton or Harvard lol.

If 1100 is the cutoff, successful appliants are probably higher.

But more optimistically for lower-scorers, the sample of universities that report their scores is probably biased upwards.That is, it's bragging to say, "Our admitted students typically have GRE scores >1200," so universities that can say that advertise it. In contrast, schools whose incoming students have lower GRE scores just don't mention it, so the selection bias gives a false impression that you need an exceptionally high score to get in anywhere.

Edited June 18, 2012 by lewin00

[BrianM]

If 1100 is the cutoff, successful appliants are probably higher.

But more optimistically for lower-scorers, the sample of universities that report their scores is probably biased upwards.That is, it's bragging to say, "Our admitted students typically have GRE scores >1200," so universities that can say that advertise it. In contrast, schools whose incoming students have lower GRE scores just don't mention it, so the selection bias gives a false impression that you need an exceptionally high score to get in anywhere.

I hadn't thought of that!

That is really encouraging. Thanks!

[abdefghijkl]

Right! I stand corrected - I spaced it that this was a post about Psychology. In many disciplines at most Canadian universities, applicants do not have to supply a GRE score - and Psychology is one of the exceptions. I took the GRE myself and it was a pain, so I'm always trying to help others avoid it when I can - got a bit overzealous there for a minute...

[Michaliskh]

Right! I stand corrected - I spaced it that this was a post about Psychology. In many disciplines at most Canadian universities, applicants do not have to supply a GRE score - and Psychology is one of the exceptions. I took the GRE myself and it was a pain, so I'm always trying to help others avoid it when I can - got a bit overzealous there for a minute...

Thats why I prefer to send my applications in Ireland and Scotland eventually! Why is still this process of having to take the GRE's ?Why isn't the 4 years holding my head over the tons of books to get a good grade not enough? And even so, must these exams be so god damn pain..? Why in UK is not a test such the GRE? And in UK and Ireland there are very good universities as well..

[BrianM]

Thats why I prefer to send my applications in Ireland and Scotland eventually! Why is still this process of having to take the GRE's ?Why isn't the 4 years holding my head over the tons of books to get a good grade not enough? And even so, must these exams be so god damn pain..? Why in UK is not a test such the GRE? And in UK and Ireland there are very good universities as well..

Simple answer is money.

ETS makes billions from everything that goes into testing its disgusting. Every stats class I have had states that the GRES has no validity or reliability, something we are all familiar with.

Yet, we are still forced to take it. I have gotten over being frustrated over it, I was seriously getting massive headaches because of this test. Now I am just trying to be calm, accepting of it, and just trying to do my best.