Problems with Project and PI

[prettyuff1]

Hello all,

My term hasn't even started yet and things are going wrong lol.

I am in a summer internship through a cancer grant funded by the NIH. I am assigned to a PI and the project we have is full of problems. It is the 9th week of a 10 week program and we are just BEGINNING TO DO THE EXPERIMENTS SO WE CAN COLLECT DATA.. We ordered supplies 7 weeks into things and have been delayed delayed delayed. What have we done? I have no clue aside from working on a manuscript with no data. We also have a requirement to create a poster and with no research data, I am very concerned. My PI for the internship also spends the bulk of the program missing in action, hasn't taught us a thing, and has been mostly uninvolved..SHe relied heavily on a rising second year Ph.D. Student who has been called away with family emergency. I am the most senior member of this lab and I AM THE INTERN....

So the problem that i am having is the PI wants to continue with the experiment and try to conduct the experiments and attempt to get data. We have issues with progressing forward with data collection because no one knows how to use the software she wants to process the data and determine interactions. I also believe that she thinks we are going to continue with the project after the conclusion of the internship, which i do not have to/nor do i want to.

So my question is how do i/should i tell my PI that i believe she should wait until her student gets back and not continue with the project. I also want to tell her that i should do my poster as a literature review of things i have learned about the topic/postulate as to how the experiment would turn out. I feel that i cannot put out a strong poster with rushed data and no true ability to complete the process. I would approach the leader of the program but guess who that is, my PI. I also have to tell her i will not be staying in her lab when the PhD starts but i will just tell her that I want a more established lab.

TIA

[lewin]

Wow!

1. Ten weeks sounds like an astoundingly short time to prep studies and collect data. Was that always the plan? Presumably your internship is 10 weeks but the grant is longer, right?

2. It's not uncommon for PI's to rely on PhD students for the day-to-day managing of research assistants. The grad student leaving is unfortunate but while the PI might seem to be "missing in action" (from your perspective) she might really be working on other, just as important things.

3. Of course the PI wants to continue collecting data! She's not a 10 week intern. Your wording is slightly ambiguous, but are you saying that YOU don't want to continue with the project, or that you think it should be abandoned altogether? If it's the latter, that she shouldn't continue with the project, you'll look incredibly bizarre if you tell her that because interns don't "tell" PI's anything, really. If it's the former, disregard.

In sum, if you don't want to burn a lot of bridges, I think you need to adjust your expectations about your role in this project, how labs operate (especially in the summer), and your attitude.

Edited July 27, 2012 by lewin00

[fuzzylogician]

lewin00 nailed it.

Just to be extra clear: The project that you are on doesn't depend on your membership in it, and you should stop acting like it is. The idea was conceptualized without you, and the money to fund it (and you!) was obtained before you arrived, too. I imagine the PI was hoping that you could help design an experiment and run it within the 10 weeks of the internship, with the help of current lab members. It's a shame that the graduate student who was in charge of you had to leave and I can see how that would set things back, but I don't understand why you think the project should stop. 10 weeks are a very short time to design and fully run an experiment. It would be more beneficial for you to think of your internship as a learning experience about how labs work instead of just having the narrow view of this one portion of this one experiment in one project. You got a peek into how labs are organized and what the process of designing and running one study from an existing idea looks like. There are many remaining stages to the project - analyzing the results, possibly re-designing and re-running the experiment (because often first runs of experiments have problems that you would like to control for), fitting the results within the larger project, designing and running other experiments to help interpret the results you have, presenting, publishing, developing the next stage of the project based on given results. Clearly, that all doesn't happen in 10 weeks (not even in 10 months usually) and you have a lot to learn.

Regarding your poster, what is it for? Is it for a conference (what size)? For an internal or internship-related event? You don't put a lit-review on a conference poster, and for a smaller event I don't see a reason not to put preliminary results along with a discussion of the design, the implications of what you have and plans for the next step. There could be some lit review but it'd be a shame to make it seem like that is the only thing you did and learned in 10 weeks!

So, you should adjust your attitude and your expectations.

Note: we are being harsh because we are trying to keep you from overestimating your role in the project. If you go to your PI and start making suggestions like you were making above, your PI may get upset at you. You shouldn't burn bridges with this PI, even if you don't want to continue working in her lab. You may need LORs from her, and besides it sounds like she was trying to give you the best learning experience for your 10 weeks that she could. Either way, you should know your place in the project and act accordingly.

Edited July 27, 2012 by fuzzylogician

[Eigen]

To add to the above, it's not uncommon to pull an all nighter collecting data until you leave for a conference, and then make up the poster on the flight.

So you have a final week to collect data- it may be rushed, but it's not unusual. And posters are rarely about finalized, publishable data- if it was at that stage, it would be published and not just a poster. Posters often contain preliminary or unfinished data.

[prettyuff1]

Well I may have been a little ambiguous.

The grant I am under is a cancer education program. The program is designed to be a 10 week program with the entire research designed to be done during the completion of the program This program/internship is separate from the PhD program that I'm involved in. The grant is designed to be separate from the long term project of the PI. It's really designed for medical student/dental students to get research hours.

I'm mainly thinking in how am I to finish. I don't think it should stop but I do think it should wait until the main student gets back. Put yourself in my situation. Your told to come early to participate in the program and don't get anything out of it. It's pretty depressing to hear the excellent projects others have gotten on and to not get the same. We have asked for her help to show us things but not really been well received

[Eigen]

No offense, but in STEM grad school, a lot of what you get our of your research is up to you and what you put into it.

I don't think my PI has "shown me" anything. I'm sure he'd come and give it a try when he had time if I asked him to, and he definitely helps me troubleshoot and find resources, but I'm better off going and reading the literature, asking other grad students, or finding someone in my department or a related department that has done the procedure I'm looking to do.

And then getting it set up and giving it a try.

It seems to me like you've decided you aren't going to have gotten anything out of the program, when it seems to me like you're in a position to get quite a bit- the materials have gotten in, the PI has said to collect data, so I don't really get what's to stop you from collecting the data and making things work out in a worthwhile fashion.

As for not knowing how to use software... That's kind of a side-step to the issue. Load up the software, load up the data, get out the manuals and learn it. I've taught myself several data processing packages, some more and some less specific, as well as several different simulation and modeling suites.

You seem to have a very "undergraduate" mentality of waiting to be told what to do, or taught how to do something, rather than looking for what to do, and either finding someone to teach you what you need or learning it yourself. And rarely does a PI directly teach their grad students techniques, etc.- you generally learn from other senior students, or in their absence, senior students in other labs.

And you seem to be making it a very hard-and-fast "a 10 week internship is a 10 week internship". If putting in an extra week of work would make it a lot more worthwhile of a project, why not put in that extra week?

And as for putting myself in your situation, I've been in a quite similar one. I started grad school about 2 months early, came, and got told "here's a lab, here are our grants, design a project you're interested in". And I read through the literature, designed a project, ordered the materials and started on it. And it seems like in this case, things were a lot more organized than that. Grad school (or in this case, an early admission combined with an internship) is about developing as an independent researcher.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Eigen

[Dal PhDer]

I have to agree with the above posts.

I think you should look at the project in a different light. Be happy that the PI has the confidence and respect in/for you to ask you to take on such a position. Also, see this as an opportunity to learn a lot. There are many benefits to working on a research project, geting results and presenting them are one of these benefits- but are not the end all and be all.

My experience working on projects is that they can be planned to be on a specific timeline, but 90% of the time they deviate from it and take longer. It doesn't mean you haven't done anything, it's just the fact that in real life, things often don't go on schedule.

You still have time to do data collection and analysis and have a good paper. You can present pelimanry data, with more of a focus on the background/objectives/methods. Poster presentations are very flexible and will give you the opportunity to candidately chat about the limitations that the project is currently facing, and the future directions that it will be going.

A 10 week internship is a short period of time. But you should really look at the fact that the PI is putting a lot on your plate as something exciting and positive. Take the reins and go head on with it. You're in graduate school and will have to teach yourself a lot more than a software- so use this experience as a learning opportunity to develop your skills as a self-educator.

[ANDS!]

Wow. It is incredibly naive to have thought that a 10 week summer internship would have automatically yielded publishable results from start to finish (regardless of stated intents - that just for those reading grant applications); I could maybe see it if this were a small part of a larger project that could be completed and a "student paper" squeezed out of it. It is pretty basic that these summer REU type programs carry with it some sort of long term commitment (whether that be in terms of a poster, paper or other presentation).

I worked on two summer programs and the "missing in action" malarky was the behavior of both project leads. They have other things to do, and this is as much about helping them as it is about helping you. There is some measure of independent thinking that is assumed of you on the part of these project leaders. If you have no desire to continue with the project you need to communicate that RIGHT NOW so that the PI isn't operating under the assumption you will be. Recognize also that you will effectively be burning a potential LOR because of this.

At the end of this I suppose it is lesson learned on your part, and you've gotten an introduction to the logistics, demands and reality of real research.

[prettyuff1]

I think i have taken the reins in a lot of aspects. i have made sure that i was always active in the initiating/planning of things that we were looking to ( specific pathways to look at, predicting outcomes, and suggesting ways our studies can improve experimental design). Since the student has left, i have made sure to always be more than available to the undergraduate student, take on all of the administrative things that have come up( including yelling at the company that screwed us). I have put 100% into everyday but i think my feeling about it has come into me negatively..

The long term goals of the study were to generate data to go to a poster to be presented at the university wide research symposium. We are to be judged among the other students in the program ( undergraduates separate from rising professional students). We were very concerned about getting publishable data for this duration, particularly for novice writers like me.

The issue with putting in extra time is that for the Phd program orientation begins the the same day the program ends( Aug 3rd, we have a reception and introduction to the program). We begin getting things started for that . Orientation is two weeks, i have a weekend to move into my apartment, and then school and rotations begin Aug 20th. medical and dental schools begin in early August. i harp on it because it was sort of harped to us during orientation of the internship that " 10 weeks is 10 weeks"

[Dal PhDer]

My suggestion is to take the situation for what it is. You are in your last weeks, why quit now? I would stick it out and at least keep on good standings with the professor.

If your PI is getting you to do things you're not comfortable with, perhaps approach the situation by saying: Oh that sounds exciting! I have never done _______ before, but I think it would be a great experience. I will try to figure it out on my own, but perhaps you could sit down with me/send me literature/etc to help me out. Frame it in a way that you're letting her know you don't have the experience/tools to complete the task, but you're excited to learn it and will do your best (with her guidance/aid) to get the job done.

As for the poster- ok...I am going to be blunt about this...if it's a university conference/symposium I wouldn't be worried about having results or a finished project to report on. These things are typically pretty laid back, and is really just a chance for people to network and gain experience with presenting their work. Especially with a poster, you're going to be fine...and the reality is- you're only going to be able to present on what you have. I like to say : It is what it is.

My impression of this internship is that the value and goal is not the poster and it's presentation, it's working with a PI and gaining the LOR, it's developing the skills, and having that intern experience as something you can put on applications/CV.

Edit: I think what we're all trying to say is that this opportunity should be looked at in broader terms...you shouldn't focus on the benefits/outcome as just being the data and poster...there are many other dynamics going on in this internship, and you should consider the longterm consequences of pulling out.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Dal PhDer

[TakeruK]

I also agree with what everyone else says and especially that this short internship sounds like the goal is the experience of being in the lab and working on a paper/poster, not necessarily that the entire thing be completed in 10 weeks. It's probably true that things were started a bit late, but that's the way science/research works.

I'm not sure why you want to stop now? Why not just do the best you can with the time you have left and present that. Like Dal PhDer said, it's "only" a university-level symposium. You don't have to be presenting 100% bulletproof data and arguments. Just be honest and let people know the data is preliminary. Even very preliminary data is a more interesting poster than a literature review. In addition, I'd bet that a ton of other students in the internship program that are in similar or very similar situations!

Even though you said that the grant is "supposed to be a separate project from the PI's main work", it's more likely that most PIs who took students saw this as "funding for 10 weeks in one of my projects". Of course, the ideal case would be a PI that finds a small segment of their main work that can be separated as a ~10 week project, but things are not always ideal!

If you are not personally interested in continuing the work after your internship is over, that's no reason to slow down now. What you do now could help the next person continue the project. You hopefully still gained good experience learning about research, develop some working routines, learn what you like/didn't like, etc.

[lewin]

My impression of this internship is that the value and goal is not the poster and it's presentation, it's working with a PI and gaining the LOR, it's developing the skills, and having that intern experience as something you can put on applications/CV.

^^^^a thousand times this. Mostly the LOR.

[prettyuff1]

I'm not going to stop. But the experiment we ate doing us very time sensitive with three steps. Due to logistics and lab availability we would struggle to complete to actual data collection portions during the final time.

I am mainly upset because I left a lot to come down early. I had to leave my son behind and miss several milestones in his lifeand based on the way things have gone with this PI I feel like I could've stayed in Chicago and arranged an experience with a professor from my masters Progran. It's hard especially to come to a new city alone, leave a child behind, and give up opportunities here.

I am maintaining the internship, it ends next Friday and doing every thing fully. I am never going to just quit I really worked hard to get into the PhD program. I'm mainly venting

[Dal PhDer]

That is a difficult situation. It's frustrating when you are sacrifacing your time, energy, and expectations...it is beyond frustrating and I can't even imagine how hard it must be, when you do this, but also feel you've sacrifaced your family. It's unfortunate that your situation is so common in graduate school, that we go into opportunitites with a percieved notion of how they will be, and they often disappoint or do not live up to the goals you expected to achieve.

I am sorry that it's so frustrating. This is a difficult process and there's a lot that students have to give up to achieve their dreams of graduating, I can't imagine how difficult it must be that one of those things is time with a child.

[rising_star]

I'm not going to stop. But the experiment we ate doing us very time sensitive with three steps. Due to logistics and lab availability we would struggle to complete to actual data collection portions during the final time.

You didn't say that it would be impossible to finish the data collection in the remaining time, so I urge you to try to do so. I know many people (myself included) that find that data collection goes much more quickly when there's a firm deadline staring you in the face. Best of luck!